Amare has been the receiver of a PNR pass almost his entire career, he was either headed to the basket or shooting a jumper, thats always been his job, or the ball was dump to him in the post, and he either used his quickness, or bulldozed his way to the basket for a and 1. (look at the highlights from when amare first got here, he never pass then either, but was seen as a hero.

JR is at his best when he's free styling

So what does fisher do, does he abandon the triangle for the most part when they are on the floor,or does he incorporate some basic plays until they get it. I understand the frustration some of you get when you see it happening, I see amare almost never where he suppose to be, and I see JR go into JR mode when the pass isn't there initially.

These 2 players have too much talent to waist, so fisher really needs to decide something. I like them both, but I don't like how they look in this offense. You can't incorporate a winning culture by losing games trying to perfect a system. That counter productive.

But that's just my opinion.

H1AND1 wrote:

Finestrg wrote:What is Amar'e not doing that you guys wanna see him doing? First off, he's posting up more these days because his game has evolved since his days in PHX. God forbid anyone wants to give him any credit for that. Doing that has allowed and will continue to allow the man to have a longer career in the NBA...Right now, he's coming in with the 2nd unit with a talented albeit lost young PG who's still trying to feel his own way. I say why not see how he looks working with Calderon. Why not? How did STAT look working with Steve Nash back in the day? Pretty good, right? Now Calderon isn't Nash in his heyday, I get that, but there's no denying there are similarities between the 2. I'd look to make a change tonight -- reinsert Amar'e back into the starting lineup and let him start operating with Jose Calderon. What if he's on the receiving end of a few Calderon passes and he finally has his first productive game? What, that can't happen?!? Gimme a break...And give him a longer look tonight too. Don't pull the guy after one missed jumper here or one missed post-up there...If anyone has something better, please let me know and don't say cut him or bench him. Not an option. Come on, those aren't the answers. Phil undoubted looked into dealing him this off-season and it didn't happen. So now what? Cut him? Come on. Dolan's not eating that kind of money and I wouldn't expect him to...Bench him? When the man obviously still has talent and can still play? Not only that, I feel he's probably in the best shape he's been in in some time, physically speaking and from an injury standpoint. Amar'e himself said not too long ago that he was looking forward to playing at least 30 mins. a night. Put the man back in the starting lineup tonight, take the leash off and let him go back to work. If he gets hurt, there plenty of depth here to fill in. WTF are we talking about here?!?

I get your points but he is a FA after this season and its a good bet he's not back. If he cannot or will not adhere to the new offensive system he is ACTIVELY HURTING THE TEAM and the development of the system.

Just cause he can still score on his man really is irrelevant to me. This is about the future. So yeah, if I were coach id bench him or cut him. Simple as that.

Wow...Smh man. The hatred for this man is unbelievable. Almost out of nowhere it seems. Crazy..

No dude, it really isn't as simple as that. Again, for the limited time he's gotten this pre-season so far, he's played on the 2nd unit with either Shane Larkin orchestrating, a kid who's been lost and trying to find his own way, or JR Smith who's a guy you really don't want setting up an offense, I don't care how many decent passes he threw last night. Smith's about the lowest IQ player I've ever seen play the game of basketball. I think he's been awful this preseason -- I said he was gonna have a hard time playing within the framework of a structured system and lo and behold, that's exactly what we've been seeing. Same old chucker, different day.. If it's a question of Amar'e not being in the right spot, not doing what he's supposed to do, show me the evidence. It's not that. That's simply not the case...If anything, the man comes out there trying to do the right thing and there's just mass confusion all over with that 2nd unit (come on, this is a grown man -- if Fish tells Amar'e to set up somewhere specific on the floor, he's not an idiot, he's gonna do it). What'd ya think? Maybe that's it? Now I'm not complaining about that---I for one get that it's gonna take guys like Larkin time to understand all the nuances of the triangle, understand all his teammates' strengths & weakness and just plain old get comfortable. And as for JR, wow--that boy may never get it...It's just funny, practically all the Amar'e bashers are the same ones who want to send this kid Larkin packing. It's unreal. we've only played 3 pre-season games.

Everyone RELAX!!!

Breathe in, breathe out. Wax on, wax off....OK, now that we've all calmed down, why not start Amar'e and see how he looks operating with Jose Calderon? Calderon has looked real good so far. He's gonna start. Forgone conclusion..He's not moving to the 2nd unit. So why not elevate Amar'e to the starting 5 and see how that looks. Chances are Amar'e plays better. Wouldn't that be a good thing? These games aren't even for real yet. I'd like to see Fish try it unless someone tells me logically why that's not a good idea. Let's hear it. How could finding a way to get Amar'e Stoudemire going ever be looked at as a bad idea.

And another thing -- I'm not convinced Amar'e won't be back next season. The man's made a ton of money with us and I think on account of age and his injury history, his big paydays are probably over. I still think he could be a productive player however..If he manages to play well and have a good season, I wouldn't be against bringing him back at a decent salary that fits into our plans. Why not? Cross that bridge when we get to it I suppose -- let's see how he plays and how well he holds up physically.

TripleThreat wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Breathe in, breathe out. Wax on, wax off....OK, now that we've all calmed down, why not start Amar'e and see how he looks operating with Jose Calderon? Calderon has looked real good so far. He's gonna start. Forgone conclusion..He's not moving to the 2nd unit. So why not elevate Amar'e to the starting 5 and see how that looks. Chances are Amar'e plays better. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

STAT is playing for his next contract. Knicks or not. He offers zero defense. Zero. His liabilities in his all around game IMHO offset whatever he can give you on offense.

In order to showcase what he has to offer in a contract year, IMHO, that means any time STAT gets the ball this year, he is going to try to shoot. If you can't allure potential new teams with defense or the ability to play team ball or doing things like set picks, have a low post game, hit a three pointer consistently, show high IQ on the court, then at all you can do is show you can put in the cup.

STAT is not playing for the Knicks now, he's playing for himself and his next contract. Triangle or no Triangle, he's going to shotjack. And why not? He's a lousy passer and has lousy passing instincts/ability anyway.

STAT and Calderon can play together and STAT, if you give him enough touches, and attempts, he can be a 20 PPG scorer again. Except you'll lose by 40 each night and suffer the destroyed morale of his team mates whom he froze out.

I know plenty of chicks who were hot three years ago. But give them a baby, maybe too much time at the dinner table, maybe too much stress or partying and age, and they can get run down real fast. I think people are calm, I just think other folks are seeing STAT for what he is now, not what he was maybe 3-4 years ago. It's almost like you have Springsteen's Glory Days blaring at full blast, and on repeat, and just watch old STAT clips from his Sun days.

STAT can give you some production, but not without creating liabilities and detract from the team concept for the entire collective. You couldn't even compare him to a hot chick with herpes ( where you might think about the gamble and tradeoffs) He's more like an aging muffin top with bad teeth and bleached out skin and hair and sagging and has herpes.

The raw concept of beer goggles and homer goggles aren't that much different. Time to consider removing the homer goggles. STAT is not the player that he used to be, not even close. If you can't play team ball, you can't help the Knicks where they need to go.

If Stat were a zero sum proposition, he'd earn time if nobody was a net positive to take his place. But he is not even a zero sum proposition. He is a net negative player. He will always have some flashes of offensive excellence, but in aggregate he produces less on offense than a guy who gets 4 assists, scores 10 points and has 2 steals and they limit their defensive assignment to less than their average.

A twenty point game from Amare if it happens now is just empty calories. Points are not just points if you always give it up on the other end. He has had some of the worst +/- on this team for some time now. Even if you don't live and die by that metric, it is not dismissable when a player is off the charts on that metric to the positive or negative. And he is a big time nagative. Has been for a long time now.

VCoug wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:Also, I always think it's kinda funny when I hear that JR's "talents" are ISO and "free styling". When in reality, when he plays that way he's doing himself a disservice. The guy has so much talent and he isn't utilizing it to the max when he plays that way. It's so frustrating cause he is so freaking gifted and he wastes his talents chucking and playing like an idiot.

Exactly. I had a post earlier this Summer that showed JR's shooting numbers off the dribble and catch and shoot. He was one of the worst players in the league shooting off the dribble and one of the best players in the league in catch and shoot. Really, what people mean JR's talents are ISO and free styling they mean he's more comfortable doing that, not better.

Yes and many have indelible images in their mind of improbable late game shots made by JR. Take away those freaky moments of glory and he is really a lost cause. He has surely won games for us, but how many did he lose? He's a hail mary kind of player, the kind I don't appreciate.

gunsnewing wrote:Exactly. I like him with the run and gun 2nd unit of Larkin, Hardaway, early/wear, Jason Smith. As the centerpiece until his knees give out or he falls out of the rotation completely as his days as a KNICK are numbered

Amare's time here is done barring some miracle. BUT he's a very important piece and needs to be handled properly. Whether its in a trade or just letting his salary come off the books he's got a rare skill set and it needs to be utilized he needs to be managed. Knicks dont have a ton of talent on this roster, some but not much.

This part of coaching and managing an NBA team.