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If I picked the offseason after thinking about it
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BRIGGS
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10/21/2014  11:40 AM
gunsnewing wrote:Fisher even said they aren't even scouting teams yet. Thats why practice during the regular season is for. Right now they are just working on basic defensive fundamentals and the triangle. It's preseason everyone calm the F down

guns--I want the Knicks to win. I WANT to be an optimist--God knows that. I think we DO have some pieces that POTENTIALLY can be good lead by Melo JR THJ and if he is healthy--despite what others might think Stat. Listen this Knicks team NEEDS to be an offensive team--and there is nothing wrong with that. We should be better offensively than defensively--so play to your strengths. That does not mean give up 120 points!!! and the Bucks could not miss --so lets shove that down the garbage disposal. But at the end of the day---was it worth doing this deal to give up 9mm in cap space? No way.

RIP Crushalot😞
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gunsnewing
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10/21/2014  11:45 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/21/2014  11:46 AM
I rather be a defensive team first and hope that with the help of the triangle, role players will exceed their abilities and previous statistical expectations. Get Melo and Calderon easy shots, spacing, rhythm, ball movement, efficiency, etc

I'm pretty sure thats what the triangle is about

knicks1248
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10/21/2014  11:48 AM
gunsnewing wrote:Fisher even said they aren't even scouting teams yet. Thats why practice during the regular season is for. Right now they are just working on basic defensive fundamentals and the triangle. It's preseason everyone calm the F down

I never heard fisher say they were not scouting teams, but that has been painfully obvious, and judging from the player comments, these preseaon games are strickly for practicing and seeing what works. You can easily tell there is no game planing.

ES
fishmike
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10/21/2014  12:06 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I rather be a defensive team first and hope that with the help of the triangle, role players will exceed their abilities and previous statistical expectations. Get Melo and Calderon easy shots, spacing, rhythm, ball movement, efficiency, etc

I'm pretty sure thats what the triangle is about

we dont have that type of roster.

We need Calderon because he's smart and proven. What he really provides is the ability to properly assess the young guys that come in. He makes good passes, understands spacing... he's a legit floor general defensive issues aside.

This is a transition phase. Lets see who brings what. 20ish games should give us a good idea. Not preseason.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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10/21/2014  12:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/21/2014  7:35 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Fisher even said they aren't even scouting teams yet. Thats why practice during the regular season is for. Right now they are just working on basic defensive fundamentals and the triangle. It's preseason everyone calm the F down

I never heard fisher say they were not scouting teams, but that has been painfully obvious, and judging from the player comments, these preseaon games are strickly for practicing and seeing what works. You can easily tell there is no game planing.

exactly. that is what fish said in the post game

knickscity
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10/21/2014  7:35 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:Fisher even said they aren't even scouting teams yet. Thats why practice during the regular season is for. Right now they are just working on basic defensive fundamentals and the triangle. It's preseason everyone calm the F down

I never heard fisher say they were not scouting teams, but that has been painfully obvious, and judging from the player comments, these preseaon games are strickly for practicing and seeing what works. You can easily tell there is no game planing.

exactly. that is what phil said in the post game

Thats a dangerous game they are playing though. Cant wait til it really counts to start the things that should be done regardless.

gunsnewing
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10/21/2014  7:38 PM
Fish said you don't game plan in preaseason. I don't see why you would when you are just worried about your team. Again that's what practice before games in season is for
knickscity
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10/21/2014  7:46 PM
Thats odd, i do see teams gameplanning against us in preseason. The Bucks certainly did.
CrushAlot
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10/21/2014  8:05 PM
knickscity wrote:Thats odd, i do see teams gameplanning against us in preseason. The Bucks certainly did.
The Bucks looked well coached. I think Kidd does well there. It has to be a lot easier for a first, second year coach to teach/work with young players as opposed to KG, Pierce, Terry, Joe Johnson etc.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
gunsnewing
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10/21/2014  8:13 PM
I think fisher will be fine with the veterans and he has Phil's support
CrushAlot
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10/21/2014  8:40 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I think fisher will be fine with the veterans and he has Phil's support
I am really excited about Fisher. I liked the hire but his passion in the summer league got me hooked. I think the guy is going to be a great coach.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
NardDogNation
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10/21/2014  10:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/21/2014  11:11 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I wouldve kept Chandler and Felton. I think Calderon's contract is not worth it. That trade added net 8 and 11mm to salary cap the next two years for a player who is not the PG I would ultimately want.

I wouldve signed both Jeff Adrien and Jimmer Freddette to 2 year 2-3 mm(1-1.5mm) $ contracts with 2nd year options. I like how Freddette can spread the floor from the PG spot and even if he ultimately was a back up the contract age and skills I want are there(I also think hes way better than hes been used). I like Jeff Adriens toughness defense and rebounding he doesnt get hurt hes powerful and under rated--Smith to me is a guy who I wouldve never thought of as we had Bargs in his last year. Adrien is an 80's Knick with low miles and good age(27) Evene in the triangle there are players who just play roles(aka Rodman etc..)

If I had the same opportunity at pick 57 I wouldve taken Cory Jefferson as a no brainer and I wouldve passed on the pick altogether if he wasnt still there.

I wouldve tried to trade Prigs for any 2nd round pick.

I wouldve also signed my own players Cole A and T Murry to a 2 year 1-1.5mm$


I wouldnt have shaken up the roster and maybe some people(fans would be mad as felton likely would still be starting) I would not have Early Larkin Calderon Smith Dalembart Outlaw. Maybe I keep Tyler maybe I dont--wouldve attended camp to se if he was a top 15 roster guy or not. Essentially I wouldve only added two role players Adrien and Freddette


Reasoning. I dont think the team we have now--with the added cap space is in anyway materially better than what I wouldve kept. I feel my role players--Adrien and Freddette wouldve gave the team a boost and both players wouldve likely stayed healthy. I wrote on my Facebook page two years ago that I thought Cory Jefferson was a lottery pick if he came out in 2013 so how could I bypass him at 57 the next year??


I wouldve had a completely open competition at PG. With Adrien and a resigned Aldrich it gives me that extra bodies we did not have two years ago when we won 54 games.
And Im either boom or bust. Either we are good out of the box and I can yield a 50 win season where I can compete with anyone in the playoffs--or at game 41 I blow the MFer up and dive dump to take the best C in the draft and have that extra cap space to re do the roster with more buying power.


The what if thread:)

I was of the same opinion when the deal was initially made. I like Calderon the player but I don't like Calderon the player, at 33 years old, locked into a 3 year deal that pays him $21 million. But with the TV deal being consummated, I'm fine with the trade. The cap will likely jump exponentially, which would negate the impact of Calderon's deal. Chances are, we won't find anyone to take our cap money in 2015 and 2016 anyway. But we still could have easily signed Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson or Darren Collision for pennies on the dollar and also been fine. On top of that, I'm not thrilled at all with Larkin and Early; both of whom I could see washing out of the league in a few years.

I do agree that Jimmer Fredette and Jeff Adrien would've been good pick-ups though. I've been pining about Jimmer since last season, in particular. I'm watching the LAC-GS game right now and think we could add Jared Cunningham to that list. As for groundbreaking moves,I think we could've bought out Felton's contract, traded Tyson Chandler to a team like the Lakers for picks and a trade exception, then flipped that very same trade exception for more picks (e.g. the Jared Dudley and a first trade, the Jarrett Jack and a first trade, etc.). We would suck and then have an opportunity to get an excellent pick on 2015 and potentially get a game changer like Emmanuel Mudiay or Jahil Okafor. It'd take time to bring either one along but all contenders seem to have at least one young player in a pivotal role e.g. Kawhi Leonard with the Spurs, Nikola Mirotic/Doug McDormett with the Bulls, Steve Adams with the Thunder, etc.

NardDogNation
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10/21/2014  10:34 PM
fishmike wrote:Calderon may not be Chris Paul, but have we not seen enough of what happens when the team has no PG? This was a good move. You need a steady presense there and Calderon is a good floor general. He's a transition player for us and we arent asking him do anything out of his skill set.

You either go with fodder at PG, and complain about constant ISO play, broken plays and just bad offense. I guess fans forgot what it was like when Toney Douglas was running the ship and Mike Bibby seemed like a good option?

Its hard to evaluate your youngs in such a scramble.

Yes Calderon's contract is pricey but good PGs are.

Why are you portraying Calderon as some kind of saviour, as though we had no other comparable options? Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Darren Collision were free agents this offseason and changed teams. They give you similar production at a fraction of the price, without having to commit to them long term. That was a more tenable scenario to pursue IMO than what we did.

CrushAlot
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10/21/2014  10:37 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:Calderon may not be Chris Paul, but have we not seen enough of what happens when the team has no PG? This was a good move. You need a steady presense there and Calderon is a good floor general. He's a transition player for us and we arent asking him do anything out of his skill set.

You either go with fodder at PG, and complain about constant ISO play, broken plays and just bad offense. I guess fans forgot what it was like when Toney Douglas was running the ship and Mike Bibby seemed like a good option?

Its hard to evaluate your youngs in such a scramble.

Yes Calderon's contract is pricey but good PGs are.

Why are you portraying Calderon as some kind of saviour, as though we had no other comparable options? Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Darren Collision were free agents this offseason and changed teams. They give you similar production at a fraction of the price, without having to commit to them long term. That was a more tenable scenario to pursue IMO than what we did.


I think Jose is a much better fit than the guys you mentioned.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
NardDogNation
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10/21/2014  10:47 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/21/2014  10:47 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:Calderon may not be Chris Paul, but have we not seen enough of what happens when the team has no PG? This was a good move. You need a steady presense there and Calderon is a good floor general. He's a transition player for us and we arent asking him do anything out of his skill set.

You either go with fodder at PG, and complain about constant ISO play, broken plays and just bad offense. I guess fans forgot what it was like when Toney Douglas was running the ship and Mike Bibby seemed like a good option?

Its hard to evaluate your youngs in such a scramble.

Yes Calderon's contract is pricey but good PGs are.

Why are you portraying Calderon as some kind of saviour, as though we had no other comparable options? Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Darren Collision were free agents this offseason and changed teams. They give you similar production at a fraction of the price, without having to commit to them long term. That was a more tenable scenario to pursue IMO than what we did.


I think Jose is a much better fit than the guys you mentioned.

How much does an assist to turnover ratio even matter when it pertains to a man who can't guard a chair? As I said before, I like Calderon but he is grossly overpaid and backup material at this point in his career (as are the players I mentioned). For the record, he is certainly better at running an offense than the guys on my list but he is not $18 million better as a player, overall, especially on a team going nowhere.

CrushAlot
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10/21/2014  11:40 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:Calderon may not be Chris Paul, but have we not seen enough of what happens when the team has no PG? This was a good move. You need a steady presense there and Calderon is a good floor general. He's a transition player for us and we arent asking him do anything out of his skill set.

You either go with fodder at PG, and complain about constant ISO play, broken plays and just bad offense. I guess fans forgot what it was like when Toney Douglas was running the ship and Mike Bibby seemed like a good option?

Its hard to evaluate your youngs in such a scramble.

Yes Calderon's contract is pricey but good PGs are.

Why are you portraying Calderon as some kind of saviour, as though we had no other comparable options? Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Darren Collision were free agents this offseason and changed teams. They give you similar production at a fraction of the price, without having to commit to them long term. That was a more tenable scenario to pursue IMO than what we did.


I think Jose is a much better fit than the guys you mentioned.

How much does an assist to turnover ratio even matter when it pertains to a man who can't guard a chair? As I said before, I like Calderon but he is grossly overpaid and backup material at this point in his career (as are the players I mentioned). For the record, he is certainly better at running an offense than the guys on my list but he is not $18 million better as a player, overall, especially on a team going nowhere.


We disagree about Calderon. I wouldn't want any of the guys you mentioned on the Knicks. Jose brings character, leadership, and efficiency. The guy is in the 50-40-90 club. Hopefully the Knicks are going somewhere. The guys you mentioned I see as a Felton reset. Heady point guard play is worth more.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
NardDogNation
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10/21/2014  11:48 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:Calderon may not be Chris Paul, but have we not seen enough of what happens when the team has no PG? This was a good move. You need a steady presense there and Calderon is a good floor general. He's a transition player for us and we arent asking him do anything out of his skill set.

You either go with fodder at PG, and complain about constant ISO play, broken plays and just bad offense. I guess fans forgot what it was like when Toney Douglas was running the ship and Mike Bibby seemed like a good option?

Its hard to evaluate your youngs in such a scramble.

Yes Calderon's contract is pricey but good PGs are.

Why are you portraying Calderon as some kind of saviour, as though we had no other comparable options? Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson and Darren Collision were free agents this offseason and changed teams. They give you similar production at a fraction of the price, without having to commit to them long term. That was a more tenable scenario to pursue IMO than what we did.


I think Jose is a much better fit than the guys you mentioned.

How much does an assist to turnover ratio even matter when it pertains to a man who can't guard a chair? As I said before, I like Calderon but he is grossly overpaid and backup material at this point in his career (as are the players I mentioned). For the record, he is certainly better at running an offense than the guys on my list but he is not $18 million better as a player, overall, especially on a team going nowhere.


We disagree about Calderon. I wouldn't want any of the guys you mentioned on the Knicks. Jose brings character, leadership, and efficiency. The guy is in the 50-40-90 club. Hopefully the Knicks are going somewhere. The guys you mentioned I see as a Felton reset. Heady point guard play is worth more.

What contender does Jose start on?

nixluva
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10/22/2014  12:41 AM
Jose is the perfect fit for what Phil wants to do with this team. Please stop with this idea that we could just plug any old PG in here and they'd be the same. The Triangle really benefits from a PG that is smart, a great shooter, with great passing and court vision. All the other PG's people keep mentioning aren't even close to filling all those skills. Sure some can score but in terms of being capable of running this offense i'm not convinced that they would do it on the same level. Even at his age Jose is still a top 20 PG according to all the various polls i've read. He's not a DRose or CP3 tho. So this idea that he by himself is gonna carry a team is ridiculous. We weren't capable of getting that kind of player but in terms of quality we really did a great job. Jose is a top shooter and that was a big requirement for the job in addition to his floor generalship.


Hollinger Stats - True Shooting Percentage - Qualified Point Guards
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
1 Pablo Prigioni, NY 66 19.4 .642 47.1 12.4 10.8 3.2 8.8 5.9 13.02 38.7 1.3
2 Stephen Curry, GS 78 36.5 .610 26.7 11.8 28.2 1.8 10.9 6.4 24.13 557.6 18.6
3 Jose Calderon, DAL 81 30.5 .596 30.0 8.2 16.4 1.4 7.6 4.5 15.25 156.4 5.2
4 Patty Mills, SA 81 18.9 .588 16.3 6.9 21.2 2.6 9.6 6.2 18.80 177.7 5.9
5 Chris Paul, LAC 62 35.0 .580 36.2 7.9 25.0 2.0 11.4 6.9 25.98 485.2 16.2
6 J. Fredette, CHI/SAC 49 10.6 .578 18.4 13.8 25.9 1.7 9.7 5.7 15.88 37.8 1.3
7 Eric Bledsoe, PHX 43 32.9 .578 22.6 13.8 24.4 2.1 13.8 8.0 19.62 182.2 6.1
8 Darren Collison, LAC 80 25.9 .575 24.3 10.8 19.4 2.6 7.3 5.0 16.21 160.8 5.4
9 Isaiah Thomas, SAC 72 34.7 .574 23.4 11.0 26.1 2.1 7.5 4.7 20.54 355.6 11.9
10 Jeremy Lin, HOU 71 28.9 .572 23.5 14.1 20.0 2.0 7.8 5.1 14.31 101.4 3.4
NardDogNation
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10/22/2014  1:02 AM
I'm not sure that celebrating the acquisition of the 20th best PG in a 30 team league is an accomplishment; not if the objective is to build a winner. More importantly , I doubt that it can even be perceived as a building block considering that said player is 33 years old.

The better bet would've been to eat Felton's contract, leverage as many picks as possible for Tyson Chandler and from whatever subsequent trade exception we'd get for him, then to tank this season for a high lottery pick. At least then we could say that there is a plan in place. Instead, we are now positioning ourselves to be the new Atlanta Hawks or Milwaukee Bucks of yesteryear.

jrodmc
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10/22/2014  1:14 AM
gunsnewing wrote:Fisher even said they aren't even scouting teams yet. Thats why practice during the regular season is for. Right now they are just working on basic defensive fundamentals and the triangle. It's preseason everyone calm the F down

Who are you and what have you done with guns the Hornets fanboy?

If I picked the offseason after thinking about it

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