newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I accept that I will never like Carmelo Anthony. I will root for the team of course but I look forward to the day he is off the team. Hopefully before the 5yrs are up

I like melo and i do defend him quite a bit i just dont think you can win a title with him as the main guy. This isnt a criticism because very few players can do that. I think Melo can be a big part of winning a title but he needs to play with someone who is a better overall player, im not talking about a better scorer just another guy who is very good at all phases of the game

Like who? and please be realistic when you come up with a name.

Prime Chauncy Billups would do and did.

That's unrealistic because billups is retired, for all that you can throw magics name out there. When you look around the league and see so few go to guys or leaders, you start to get the picture.

Kyle Lowry instead of Bargs would have been nice.

Dragic would be really really nice.

I think that we at least got a PG who does smart things with the ball instead of the fat idiot.

Don't want Aldridge or Gasol at anywhere close to the max.

We're starting from a much lower point than that Denver team. Without Billups, that still wouldn't have been a 37 win eastern conference team. We'd need Billups and four or six more good players.

We are starting from a lower point but Denver was not that good. Nene was pretty good but there were loads of scrubs on that team.

With Prime Billups on this team we probably win 45-48 games, definitely good enough to make the playoffs and possibly even getting to the ECF's.

Were Kenyon, J.R., Camby included

In those loads of scrubs

What you're saying those Denver teams

Weren't that good although they had Melo

It wasn't until the Billups arrival

You could take them seriously

Camby? Did not know he was on that team.

Martin was ok (pretty inefficient though) - not a scrub (I actually think that Cole can be a better player). JR was as brain dead as he has been here.

Okay Camby wasn't there Birdman was

Camby was traded to Clippers right after

A Defensive Player Of The Year season

Melo = Not a Scrub

Billups = Not a Scrub

Birdman = Not a Scrub

Nene= Not a Scrub

Martin= Not a Scrub

So Melo had enough to win

And what you're saying Billups

Was the ultimate and true X-Factor on that team

Makes sense he finished 6th in MVP voting that year

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html

Melo didn't place anywhere in MVP that season

Good luck finding a prime, near prime Billups

Btw Kleiza was very good that season

Probably just above scrub levels

Melo had enough to win what exactly? They lost to a superior team, with a superior head coach, with a superior superstar.

Whom Melo is often lumped in with

Around these neck of the woods

Swap Melo out with other Super talents on Denver

Probably have more favorable outcomes

Swap Melo out with Super talents primes

Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Paul George, probably Garnett

Isn't the point Melo needs far more help than expected

But is treated as if he's on a Super talent's level

While I am not of the belief that Melo can be the best player on a championship team, pretty much every champion has superior talent 1-8. Our second best player since Melo has been here has been JR Smith, barring the first season. You wont be winning much with that type of reliance or team makeup.

I can agree to some extent

This discussion always seems to

Go back to his Denver days

And there he shouldn't have been getting

Bounced in the first round as often

Considering who he did play with

He's played with some very good talent in Denver

Contrary to inequality opinions

Jordan is greater then Dirk yet Jordan still played along side of better talent and coached by a better coach.

Every superstar needs a ton of talent and great coaching to win championships. He had some good talent to in Denver on paper. The problem with that though is that the talent was often injured and the west was loaded during those times. Its not just about how good your team is but how tough the compition is as well. Those Denver teams were not on the level of there comp. If they played in the east then they would have made a couple of finals appearances. Those Eastern teams made the finals and got destroyed by the West mostly the same teams Denver lost to.

If Melo was rightfully drafted by Detroit. Playing alongside of vets like Ben Wallace Billups Rasheed and Rip. Coached by HOF Larry Brown. Then he would have been in equal scenarios as most NBA champions.

i agree with you here, but I put more of that on Karl than the team he had.they had.

Denver iirc during Karl time there two twice to teams that won the title and the third time that team was the runner up. Also iirc, Denver was 1-3 when they had hca in the first round.

There is no excuse to losing to

Clippers and Utah in the 1st round

Place the blame at the feet of

Melo and-or Karl it doesn't matter

Conveniently picking a part the

Rosters only during postseason play is follies finest

I can understand why you would believe this based on perception.

In that same 2006 season which they lost to the Clippers, they lost Nene for all 82games of the season and playoffs. Camby and Martin both played 56 games each that yr. Yet Denver won 44 games to win there division and snag the 3rd seed. The Clippers won 47 games that yr(more games then Denver) to snag the 6th seed. Clippers also beat Denver 3 out of the 4 times during the regular season that yr. In the playoffs Martin played only 2 out of 5 games at 18mins a pop. So if your keeping score 2 of the players that you claim Melo had the pleasure of playing with did not contribute to the team during the playoffs in 06.

Clippers lineup during the series: Sam Cassell, Cutino Mobley, Corey Maggette, Elton Brand, Chris Kaman & Shaun Livingston.
Denver's lineup during the series: Andre Miller, Greg Buckner, Carmelo Anthony, Eduardo Najera, Marcus Camby, & Earl Boykins.

Clippers had the better available lineup. Elton Brand put up MVP type numbers that series. Brand was 7th in MVP voting that yr.

Denver and the Jazz both held the same record at 53 wins on the season. Karl had throat cancer and stepped away from the team the last month of the season and the playoffs. They also no longer had Camby and replaced him with a lesser Birdman. During the series Melo put up superstar numbers 30pts 8.5rebs 3.3ast 2stls per game dominating his matchup. Deron Williams dropped 26pts 11ast per game on Billups. Boozer dropped 25pts 13rebs per game on Nene. Milsap dropped 17pts 10rebs on Martin. Cj Miles dropped 14pts per game on Jr Smith(11)

If your keeping score, the core talent that you are claiming provided Melo with so much help severely lost there match ups mostly to better players then themselves. Nene and Martin combined for 21pts, 14rebs, 2.7stls per game. Boozer & Milsap combined for 40pts, 23rebs, 3blks per game.

your point is that melo is really just a glorified junior varsity player who falls short in the playoffs time and again.

it's a team game. melo has never in his entire career been anything close to (a) a complete player and (b) a player who makes others around him better.

but hey it's always his teammates and his coaches. year in year out, consistently.

is carmelo anthony ever responsible for any of his failures? just because he himself never takes responsibility does not give you or anyone else permission to look elsewhere. seems that the common thread to melo getting kicked out of first rounds is........melo himself.

I'll address the Clippers series first

So you want to cherry pick the other roster's greatness

Why absolve Melo from all blame

You mention Elton Brand's MVP season

Melo should have best him it's a regular season award, he didn't place

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html

Brand = 52%fg 24.7ppg 10rebs 1stls 2.5blks

Melo = 48%fg 26.5ppg 5rebs 1stls .5blks

Looking at the series Brand outplayed him

There's a clear distinction between the two

Brand is the 2-way highly efficient player

Melo is not a 2-way player and was highly inefficient

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Brand = 47%fg 18ppg 3.5ast 10reb 1stl, 2blks

Melo = 33%fg 21ppg 3ast 6.5rebs 1stl

Melo could have been the MVP of the series but instead flopped again

This same year failed to come through in regular season greatness

Melo was a monumental failure overall here

Clippers team was better then Denver's team so Clippers team won.

Okay and Denver won as a TEAM

To get into the playoffs

Stop picking and choosing how you want

To distribute the blame and when it's applicable

Oh and the great C.J. Miles

Is on the Pacers now

I guess he'll be outplaying Smith again

Possibly other Pacers doing the same player for player

Mehmet Okur missed chunks and Ak47 didn't even play

In the series against Denver too, in case you forgot

Denver making the playoffs as a team does not make them a better team then the Clippers. Dwill Boozer Milsap were better then Billups Nene and Martin. I don't blame them for losing there matchups. U claimed that there was no excuse as if they were far superior. And instead of backing up your claims u attacked Melo.

No

I'm saying Melo should have been the difference maker

4yrs later you would think Melo would have figured it out against Utah

It's not about overall stats, it's how you play the game

Doing what's needed to win

Give me a group of 5 that perform like Clippers and Jazz

Those seasons, season after season after season

The Clippers were a laughingstock franchise for yrs

Sterling was ridiculed for yrs

Yet when they went against a Denver Melo led team

They found success, and what happened to the Clippers afterwards

5yrs prior and 6yrs after the 2005-2006 season

The Clippers missed the playoffs every single yr

So stop trying to talk up that team like

They were truly good

When is the first preseason game?

Right after the next three Melo quotes are dissected within each of their own 4 threads.

Note to martin/Andrew: the new schedule, gentlemen, please...

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I accept that I will never like Carmelo Anthony. I will root for the team of course but I look forward to the day he is off the team. Hopefully before the 5yrs are up

I like melo and i do defend him quite a bit i just dont think you can win a title with him as the main guy. This isnt a criticism because very few players can do that. I think Melo can be a big part of winning a title but he needs to play with someone who is a better overall player, im not talking about a better scorer just another guy who is very good at all phases of the game

Like who? and please be realistic when you come up with a name.

Prime Chauncy Billups would do and did.

That's unrealistic because billups is retired, for all that you can throw magics name out there. When you look around the league and see so few go to guys or leaders, you start to get the picture.

Kyle Lowry instead of Bargs would have been nice.

Dragic would be really really nice.

I think that we at least got a PG who does smart things with the ball instead of the fat idiot.

Don't want Aldridge or Gasol at anywhere close to the max.

We're starting from a much lower point than that Denver team. Without Billups, that still wouldn't have been a 37 win eastern conference team. We'd need Billups and four or six more good players.

We are starting from a lower point but Denver was not that good. Nene was pretty good but there were loads of scrubs on that team.

With Prime Billups on this team we probably win 45-48 games, definitely good enough to make the playoffs and possibly even getting to the ECF's.

Were Kenyon, J.R., Camby included

In those loads of scrubs

What you're saying those Denver teams

Weren't that good although they had Melo

It wasn't until the Billups arrival

You could take them seriously

Camby? Did not know he was on that team.

Martin was ok (pretty inefficient though) - not a scrub (I actually think that Cole can be a better player). JR was as brain dead as he has been here.

Okay Camby wasn't there Birdman was

Camby was traded to Clippers right after

A Defensive Player Of The Year season

Melo = Not a Scrub

Billups = Not a Scrub

Birdman = Not a Scrub

Nene= Not a Scrub

Martin= Not a Scrub

So Melo had enough to win

And what you're saying Billups

Was the ultimate and true X-Factor on that team

Makes sense he finished 6th in MVP voting that year

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html

Melo didn't place anywhere in MVP that season

Good luck finding a prime, near prime Billups

Btw Kleiza was very good that season

Probably just above scrub levels

Melo had enough to win what exactly? They lost to a superior team, with a superior head coach, with a superior superstar.

Whom Melo is often lumped in with

Around these neck of the woods

Swap Melo out with other Super talents on Denver

Probably have more favorable outcomes

Swap Melo out with Super talents primes

Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Paul George, probably Garnett

Isn't the point Melo needs far more help than expected

But is treated as if he's on a Super talent's level

While I am not of the belief that Melo can be the best player on a championship team, pretty much every champion has superior talent 1-8. Our second best player since Melo has been here has been JR Smith, barring the first season. You wont be winning much with that type of reliance or team makeup.

I can agree to some extent

This discussion always seems to

Go back to his Denver days

And there he shouldn't have been getting

Bounced in the first round as often

Considering who he did play with

He's played with some very good talent in Denver

Contrary to inequality opinions

Jordan is greater then Dirk yet Jordan still played along side of better talent and coached by a better coach.

Every superstar needs a ton of talent and great coaching to win championships. He had some good talent to in Denver on paper. The problem with that though is that the talent was often injured and the west was loaded during those times. Its not just about how good your team is but how tough the compition is as well. Those Denver teams were not on the level of there comp. If they played in the east then they would have made a couple of finals appearances. Those Eastern teams made the finals and got destroyed by the West mostly the same teams Denver lost to.

If Melo was rightfully drafted by Detroit. Playing alongside of vets like Ben Wallace Billups Rasheed and Rip. Coached by HOF Larry Brown. Then he would have been in equal scenarios as most NBA champions.

i agree with you here, but I put more of that on Karl than the team he had.they had.

Denver iirc during Karl time there two twice to teams that won the title and the third time that team was the runner up. Also iirc, Denver was 1-3 when they had hca in the first round.

There is no excuse to losing to

Clippers and Utah in the 1st round

Place the blame at the feet of

Melo and-or Karl it doesn't matter

Conveniently picking a part the

Rosters only during postseason play is follies finest

I can understand why you would believe this based on perception.

In that same 2006 season which they lost to the Clippers, they lost Nene for all 82games of the season and playoffs. Camby and Martin both played 56 games each that yr. Yet Denver won 44 games to win there division and snag the 3rd seed. The Clippers won 47 games that yr(more games then Denver) to snag the 6th seed. Clippers also beat Denver 3 out of the 4 times during the regular season that yr. In the playoffs Martin played only 2 out of 5 games at 18mins a pop. So if your keeping score 2 of the players that you claim Melo had the pleasure of playing with did not contribute to the team during the playoffs in 06.

Clippers lineup during the series: Sam Cassell, Cutino Mobley, Corey Maggette, Elton Brand, Chris Kaman & Shaun Livingston.
Denver's lineup during the series: Andre Miller, Greg Buckner, Carmelo Anthony, Eduardo Najera, Marcus Camby, & Earl Boykins.

Clippers had the better available lineup. Elton Brand put up MVP type numbers that series. Brand was 7th in MVP voting that yr.

Denver and the Jazz both held the same record at 53 wins on the season. Karl had throat cancer and stepped away from the team the last month of the season and the playoffs. They also no longer had Camby and replaced him with a lesser Birdman. During the series Melo put up superstar numbers 30pts 8.5rebs 3.3ast 2stls per game dominating his matchup. Deron Williams dropped 26pts 11ast per game on Billups. Boozer dropped 25pts 13rebs per game on Nene. Milsap dropped 17pts 10rebs on Martin. Cj Miles dropped 14pts per game on Jr Smith(11)

If your keeping score, the core talent that you are claiming provided Melo with so much help severely lost there match ups mostly to better players then themselves. Nene and Martin combined for 21pts, 14rebs, 2.7stls per game. Boozer & Milsap combined for 40pts, 23rebs, 3blks per game.

To the unbiased eye, this post is very much on point; full of supporting facts and evidence to your argument. Unfortunately, you are posting with a poster who is clearly biased towards Melo and will not acknowledge any favorable argument for him. He was biased against Melo when he was Trueblue, when he was juice, when he was 3g4g and he's still biased towards him now. The name changed but the rhetoric remains the same.....

doesnt like Melo?

I never got that...

I think discrediting what Melo did 8 years ago should be at the forefront of EVERY Ny Knicks discussion. How its not the back pages and dominating ESPN is beyond me.

Tools

will

be

tools

I am a poet/////////////////////// and didnt even realize it

F500ONE wrote:A very difficult clue to find in all of this

Billups first yr arrival in Denver

Resulted in Anthony's lowest PPG season average

Yet his furthest accomplishment in winning

Probably his best post-season production

Overall during his career, the other was Iverson's first yr

Outside of this he's been a petrified mess of a mess in the playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1975/seasontype/3/carmelo-anthony

His playoff numbers never look like his regular season numbers

He's playing with the same players reg and post, you get that right

he's a glorified jayvee player. inefficient scoring, inferior defense, terrible usage to assist ratio may get you through the regular season but all these things add up to playoff failure. he gets exposed as a fraud every damn playoffs. but hey maybe the triangle will fix that?

"i am underrated" yeah right.

"i am just like derek jeter in terms of consistency year in year out." yeah right.

gunsnewing wrote:Melo compared himself to Jeter too? You got to be kidding me. Please Melo stop talking and let's see what you got

"I know how consistent I've been over my career. To do it day in and day out and night in and night out on a very consistent basis year in year out, I know what I can do and I know the work I've put in."

what or who do you think he is referencing? i have seen this sort of behavior in my life. dude is suffering from a mental disorder.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:A very difficult clue to find in all of this

Billups first yr arrival in Denver

Resulted in Anthony's lowest PPG season average

Yet his furthest accomplishment in winning

Probably his best post-season production

Overall during his career, the other was Iverson's first yr

Outside of this he's been a petrified mess of a mess in the playoffs

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1975/seasontype/3/carmelo-anthony

His playoff numbers never look like his regular season numbers

He's playing with the same players reg and post, you get that right

he's a glorified jayvee player. inefficient scoring, inferior defense, terrible usage to assist ratio may get you through the regular season but all these things add up to playoff failure. he gets exposed as a fraud every damn playoffs. but hey maybe the triangle will fix that?

"i am underrated" yeah right.

"i am just like derek jeter in terms of consistency year in year out." yeah right.

He wants to talk and chase shots

His way to a championship

That's why he's dismissed early every postseason

It doesn't work that way

What Is kind of troubling me at the moment

Is he spending time with Phil or not

Because by the sounds of things

Doesn't seem like any Zen is sinking in Melo

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:That would make sense if Brand & Dwill weren't also both capable of being difference makers to go along with higher level of talent along side of them at the times they played Denver.

Clippers ran into a Denver team that had Greg Buckner and Eduardo Najara as heavy rotation players which is why they were a better team then the Nuggets.

I see when they win and go to the WCF its a Billups led team. When they lose it becomes a Melo led team.

Rather then admitting that Clippers and Utah were better teams then you initially thought and or Denver didn't hold as much talent as you initially thought you decide to go on a meaningless rant about the Clippers organization. Denver wasn't as good a team as you portray them to be and they face tougher comp then you want to admit. Claiming there was no excuse for them to lose to those teams is a false premise.

Of course you will hold on to it though with the sole purpose of using the false premise to show Melo is a failure.

This is a real slow quiet training camp. I was expecting more updates and excitement. When is the first preseason game?

You're the one trying to have it both ways

For the record against Utah Billups put up good numbers

When they lose it's because Melo didn't have Camby

When they win it's because Melo carried them on his back no Billups credit

The reason Billups is the true factor because

Every Denver team compares to the one who went to the WCF

Except every team prior to never went as far

You wanna go through playoff rosters yr by yr and see if this is true?

Oh wait I can guess what one of your retorts will be

You'll look at the opponent and say stuff like

Well Melo ran into the Spurs or Lakers yada yada juggernauts

Go look at how Melo performed in 2007-2008 against the Lakers

Go look at how Melo performed in 2008-2009 against the Lakers

You can't be high volume and have numbers 40 or sub 40

Good grief he attempted 21fga/gm across 2 series and shot 36/25 and 40/25

The Grizzlies a few yrs back they erased the Spurs

Yes Ginobli wasn't as healthy but the Grizzlies weren't proven

Why were they able to do so

Because they have a balanced team

Clippers came back and erased Grizzlies following yr

With Nick Young playing huge X factor that series

Same token 3yrs later the same Spurs much much older

Went to back-to-back Finals, largely because of a role player and not a Superstar

Isn't this the crux of the argument?

Melo is being paid to be a difference maker

Not a player to fall into the mix of role players

He's also being sold as DA MAN

Give Melo a running mate like Iverson[go look at his numbers they were nasty]

Melo flopped even when he had someone to run with

lol he played with Iverson and Camby unified and still flopped

All I've ever heard anyone say is how much of an impact Billup's leadership and skills provided the team. I've never read anyone say how Melo carried the WCF team on its back giving Billups no credit. I think you made that up right now to try to justify yourself.

With Billups Denver was a more complete balanced team which is why they had more success. Billups brought a leader, high IQ floor general and big shots which was what Denver & Melo needed. They even faced a weaker team then normal in the Hornets to get that first round bug out the way.

Lakers were the #1 team in the West both yrs and went to the finals both yrs. They crushed SA 4-1 in the WCF and only lost 3 games in in the Western conference playoffs. Then won the finals as the best team in the NBA the next 2 yrs. Melo shooting poorly is only one variable you try to make it as if its the reason.

My argument is based on what it takes to be a championship contender and win championships, not to prove Melo IS DA MAN. I accept your criticism of Melo's game, but it goes hand in hand. Speaking specifically on Melo. When on his game he can be the most dominant scorer in the NBA(with Kobe getting older). Which holds value and is probably why he gets max contracts. Hopefully the Triangle presents him the easy looks to allow him to be so, efficiently. Denver was never a complete enough basketball team to win a championship and faced more complete basketball teams then themselves which is why they lost no matter if Melo shot poorly or very well. They came together one yr as a more complete basketball team when they acquired Billups and made a run to the WCF. Probably lacking an upgrade at PF/C from pushing them over the top. For some reason its more important for you and other anit-Melo posters to establish that Billups was greater then Melo and made the team win. Or when Knicks were winning 54 games that Kidd was the reason. Does it really matter? Asking for Melo to play alongside of a Billups, and an impact post player like say a P.Gasol, with complimentary role players around them. Making Melo uncoverable thus looking like the teams best player is no less then what majority of championship teams have had to work with with 3-4 high level players consistently make you pay. No less then what KG had to work with along side of Rondo, Allen & Pierce. Or Kobe along side of Gasol, Odom, Bynum/Artest.

Dude give it up

Maybe not in this exact exchange

But yes it's been stated over and over

Denver was nothing before Melo got

There but when he arrived he carried them

To the playoffs every year

Giving all credit to him

No credit to Karl, very little if any credit to Billups or any other player

I don't care what the Lakers did those season's

I care how Melo performed as an individual player

Playoff series after playoff series

His numbers were terrible several postseasons and you can't argue facts

You're discussing what it takes to win chip(s)

I'm discussing why Melo has been a failure up to this point

Other than this I've never seen how people

Can try with all their might

Twist actual words from

A player's mouth and the statistical failures

CrushAlot wrote:Nuggets improved 26 games Melo's first year in Denver.

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Nuggets improved 26 games Melo's first year in Denver.

Pretty sure he wasnt the only addition

You're right they added K-Mart, Miller

Following yr were 17-24

Fired the coach and brought in Karl

Took off from there and the story ends there

no matter how you slice it, the regular-season (AKA the jayvee season) improvement is one thing, whereupon the success beyond that, ie the playoffs, will flatten out the curve right away. does anybody ever really appreciate the difference in so many ways between regular season games and playoff games, especially those played after the first rounds? the key component is whether you make others better.

by way of comparison, bird took his team to the conference finals his rookie season. this was when he took a prior 29-53 team to a 61-21 regular season record, a 32-game improvement. when you have talent then substantial regular-season turnarounds are possible, albeit not to such a drastic degree. bird made others better.

the key is what do you do in the playoffs? do you get annihilated in first round after first round like "melo's teams" do?

david robinson also made a remarkable difference in the regular season. playoffs he did fairly well but then stalled in the second round. that basically demonstrates that the admiral is a notch or two below bird in terms of making others around him better.

there are probably other examples out there, some fewer than 26 game improvements, some greater than 26 game improvements. the point is that if you are not a playoff-caliber player, with the proper tools, conditioning, and mindset to compete at that level, it doesn't matter how well you do in the regular season. you will always be exposed in the crucible of the playoffs. playoff failure makes regular season improvement look shallow and meaningless.

and these days a first round appearance just doesn't count for much because of league bloat and talent dilution. the stars on the spurs and the ex-heat as well as dirk understand this so they are willing to take less to increase their ability to contend.