nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Please, melo abused himself by not being in shape to play the minutes required to win games....and it's exactly why he has gotten himself in better shape THIS YEAR. Phil DEMANDED it, ironically Woody did as well when he took over.

Kinda amazing how two straight superiors are demanding their star to be in better shape.

Melo's gonna play and gonna play alot. if you think Melo gonna miss a full quarter of basketball per contest or more by even insinuating he'll play as low as 35 as a player in his prime....man i have no words.

Once again I said "Melo is 30 now and it would not hurt for him to play 35-37 mpg." Stop purposefully exaggerating what i've said to try and make what i'm saying sound extreme. There's nothing extreme about saying Melo shouldn't be playing 40 mpg. In wins Melo avg'd 37 mpg so if we play better BB, in particular if Melo is more efficient and the team as a whole is more productive, then he won't have to play 40 mpg.

I've laid out what I think this team should do and much of it is based on things Phil and Fish have said themselves about the team. You don't like the team and that's fine, but Fish and Phil believe this is a playoff team. I know it's easy to jump on me because of the disaster that was last year, but that has nothing to do with what the real potential of this team should've been then nor what it should be now. This team underachieved massively last year!!! There's no other way to assess what happened after a 54 win season to drop to 37 wins. Now this team has 7 new players, a new Prez, Coaching staff with championship experience and a proven system. The roster is much better balanced than last year as well.

It's all too easy to take pot shots at my points. Please detail what your expectations for this team should be this year and how they should play their rotation. I've listed my thoughts. What do you say?

I've already said my expectations. At some point Fisher will scrap the triangle and run an offense that benefits his group.

If he doesn't, wins will be hard to come by, as these particular guys are not smart enough to catch on to such a system.

melo might, but he'll revert to what he knows when the losses pile up.

Not a lot of detail, but OK. So you have no faith in Fish, Rambis, Cleamons or Phil to be able to teach the Triangle to our players? You believe that Jose, Prigs and Larkin will be unable to run the Triangle? You believe that Melo, JR, THJ won't be able to score in the Triangle? I actually think these players are better suited to a system like this than it might seem. I think STAT, Bargs and Jason will be just fine in the Triangle. I'm not sure why you think this team will have to scrap the Triangle.

Phil and Fish realize that you need patience when installing the Triangle. The longer a team stays with it the better they'll get at it. You can't give up if the team struggles with it early. It seems to me that this team has bought in pretty early and has been working to get familiar with the new system.

This roster has a good amount of players who should be good in the Triangle. New Players like Jose and Jason are good shooters and well rounded players. I see players that should be able to grasp the Triangle and excel.

“Perfect fit,” Heiar said. “Cleanthony’s perfect for the triangle offense.”

Whether it was knocking down 3-pointers on pick-and-pop possessions or throwing touch passes from the high post, Early excelled in the areas of the game Jackson prizes. He will bring an interesting outlook to the Knicks locker room, as well, engaging anyone and everyone in conversation, quoting Buddha, reading “The Art of Seduction” and embracing the challenging positions of yoga. Once an immature student with a Steven Seagal ponytail at Pine Bush High in Orange County, Early kept an open mind on his journeys through prep school, junior college and a Final Four run at Wichita State. There are elements to his life that dovetail with Jackson’s spiritual ways.

“When people say spots, I‘m going to be all over the floor,” Anthony told Ballow. “I mean, the triangle, you are all over the floor. It makes it hard to guard, it keeps all eyes off of you. I’m looking forward to this year. I’ve been saying it all summer; I can’t wait.”

His enthusiasm only amplifies what’s become something of a strategic truism: Anthony, with his lethal mid-range game and underrated passing skills, is tailor-made for the triangle.

Even before Anthony had committed to returning to New York, Bleacher Report’s Zach Buckley offered up a fantastic synopsis of what the triangle offense means for Anthony, and vice-versa:

The triangle, while there is an X's and O's basis, is more philosophy than strategy. The scheme calls for floor spacing, balance and ball movement. ...

It can be manipulated to run almost anything: low-post chances, elbow isolations, pick-and-rolls, spot-up threes, anything. It's all about reading and reacting to the defense, a process that ideally becomes organic over time. ...

Anthony, one of the most complete offensive weapons in the league, has the intelligence to make those reads and the tools to execute the reaction. He needs to develop more trust in his teammates, and they need to prove themselves worthy of receiving it. The potential for him to thrive within the offense is incredible.

Now he is looking forward to being able to do those things in the triangle offense with new head coach Derek Fisher. And he’s hoping the triangle will have similar results for him as it did for two other prolific shooting guards who played for Phil Jackson.

“It suits me well,” Smith said. “If you’re a jump shooter and you pass the ball, guys with my skill set, it should be great. The last two guys that were in it became Hall of Famers and got a lot of rings. Hopefully, I’m in that position.”

While Smith has a very long way to go to follow in the footsteps of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, the Knicks guard is ready to start by having a bounce-back season.

“Absolutely,” Smith said of being able to rebound from last season. “I feel like I am capable of doing that.”

In his rookie season, Hardaway established himself as a talented scorer. In 23 minutes per game this past season, he averaged 10.2 points on 42.8 percent shooting overall and 36.3 percent from beyond the stripe.

He will only get better with the triangle in place:
"I think the triangle we ran summer league... was great. You just got to trust each and every person, whoever is on the floor. And that's the only way I think it will be able to work."
The 6'6 guard could play the role of Ron Harper in Jackson's system. Harper was also a 6'6 guard in Jackson's Chicago Bulls, when Michael Jordan won six championships. Harper created spacing for Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan to run the offense, and he used his athleticism on defense. Hardaway is good enough to fill that role, and with enough time, he has the potential to play the Scottie Pippen role. Then perhaps Carmelo Anthony could win his first NBA Championship.

I posted an interview from Phil in another read. believe it or not Phil was very candid in that, and what he said is basically what I have been. This is the beginning, dont get your hopes too high. this isnt anywhere near his finished product.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Can we apply this same logic to a 7 game win streak in February of 2012 when the combined records of those teams was well below .500?

It's ok Crush. The strength of schedule to end the year wasn't really as important as the fact that the team finally started playing as it should have all year. TripleThreat can try to poo poo the way the team closed the year but it was wins against the same teams we couldn't beat earlier in the year when the team was underperforming.

Here's the underlying issue. We have a group of fans who think this team sucks and is much closer to the 37 wins we saw last year than a playoff team their talent suggests they should be. These same fans don't give any credit to Phil, Fish or the staff as being capable of fielding a winning team. They won't be happy until we have KD, Lebron and CP3! There is no sense of reason about the process of remaking this team and just taking this coming season for what it is. We can't magically change the team. It's a process. Meanwhile Phil isn't just throwing this year away. This team needs to have a good year and establish the new culture for the future.

You mean the teams that the Knicks couldn't beat earlier because many of them were actually TRYING TO WIN instead of tanking and trying to establish early wins so they could rest their players late in the season for setting up for the playoffs?

The typical strength of schedule issues for the NBA and Knicks, including the reality of tanking and half hearted playoff teams near the end of the regular season mean nothing to you because it doesn't fit your specific narrative.

Here's a crazy thought, there are a group of fans here who think the Knicks need to rebuild, that they aren't one amazing comeback STAT season away, that teams right now in the position of the Knicks should treat players like STAT and Bargs as "sunk costs" and accept they have no trade value and have no place in the Knicks future and should focus on using precious minutes on the floor to developing rookies and young players and seeing what you have before you must make the CRITICAL DECISION on them whether to give them a 2nd contract with the team and become part of the team's future core or decide it's a player that you want to trade or let go period.

You use all these quotes from Zen Master and Fisher without realizing that it's just media fluff pieces. Whenever a new coach and new regime comes into town, the press writes a lot of fluff and soft hitting stuff in the preseason and off season for a couple of reasons

1) It costs you nothing to butter yourself up to the new regime. Without their cooperation, you can't get the access and quotes to do your job. Plenty of sports beat writers assigned to cover a specific sports team has lost their job that way, by wrangling a little too hard and too fast with the franchise in place. Those sports writers know they can always be more critical of that regime later, that playing it soft now and letting Zen Master and Fish just give throwaway quotes is good business for them. Also since it's basically a CAA built team, there's general pressure from a powerful agency like CAA to push its influence with the media to give a positive spin right now on the Knicks. Of course Zen Master and Fish are going to talk up all the things they want to do, it gives the media something to write about, it doesn't actually mean when the METAL HITS THE MEAT DURING THE ACTUAL SEASON that they are going to hold to all of that.

2) This is the part of the year where publications and news outlets and such have to do their part to help hype up a team to help sell tickets. Esp those expensive courtside seats and luxury boxes. Many of the same advertisers who support those sites and publications also have a relationship with the NBA and local teams. Hyping up the team is a good business. Again, a team can only market two things, Winning or Hope. Since the Knicks can't offer winning, it can only offer a sense of potential hope to fans this year.

Yes, it's a process. You seem to get jilted when people disagree with your outlandish ideas for how the Knicks should operate in the near future. You'll cherry pick stats to try to prove STAT is going to magically turn this season around for the Knicks, press on for 30 minutes a game and that these random game samples can prove something like Bargs can play defense.

You also seem to fail to understand that part of the reason the Knicks pressed hard at the end last year was because Melo was pressing hard. Why? To try to ensure his appeal as a free agent. To try his best to get courted by the clearly interested Bulls and Rockets. He wasn't trying to showcase himself just to ensure his max contract potential with the Knicks, but also to hope to try to convince the Bulls and Rockets that they should see him as valuable enough to press for a sign and trade since Melo loves his money so much. If Melo could have gotten 120 million from the Rockets or Bulls, he would be GONE.

You also seem to fail to understand that shutting out rookie minutes and trying to win a few more games ( which dooms you to the treadmill cycle, just good enough to barely fight for that last playoff spot, but never quite bad enough to get that high draft pick to get an impact rookie that can really help you for the future) isn't going to set up this culture that free agents care about. No one cared about Cleveland as a destination. LeBron goes back and now it's a hot spot. Squeaking out a few more wins from playing veterans who aren't part of your future isn't going to magically draw free agents to you. Having a roster that offers youth, upside, draft picks and cap flexibility will entice them.

It is a "process", you just don't seem to understand it ( how the media works, that this team needs to actually rebuild, that you can't ask the current Knicks to do things the current Spurs are doing and expect the same results, that skewing stats like you do doesn't change that overpaid far in decline veterans on the roster that Zen Master couldn't get rid of in the off season have no real future on this team)

You don't get it, Phil Jackson isn't throwing this year away because the past decade of ineptitude and poor management and just caving into Melo's demands have ALREADY THROWN THIS SEASON AWAY. The Knicks started the offseason with NO DRAFT PICKS in what was seen as one of the deepest drafts in recent NBA history. They are a luxury tax paying team that is poorly constructed with team killing contracts that can't be jettisoned yet and had the team morale sapping trifecta of having burned out or traded away so many of it's future draft picks, had no real stable of young players on rookie contracts with upside who were seen as breaking out and outperforming said contracts and due to the Melo resigning lost much of it's cap flexibility.

The Knicks don't have the luxury of playing a Spurs like rotation.

Yes, there are a "group of fans" different from you. The ones who think the Knicks would be better off doing WHAT EVERY OTHER REBUILDING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE IS DOING. Which is giving young players minutes to see what you have, accept losing now is part of the process, trying to gain more assets, trying not to lock into bad contracts and players and seeing a long term vision of success, not hopping onto the 8th seed chase/treadmill of doom.

And CrushAlot, if you can't see the difference between Linsanity ( where the team was winning because of team basketball, buying into doing what's right for the entire team, giving gritty and gusty defensive performances, seeing a young high IQ player and leader emerge who cost the Knicks nothing but filled the biggest weakness on the team) and last year's "Melo Wants His Cash" end of the year drive against teams already given up or thinking about the playoffs, then I don't know what to say.

Dude you are living in a box of some sorts, you're entire post is clouded with assumptions and hate. First of all, every beat writer and NBA analysis through out the country acknowledge that melo had his best season last yr, weather a contract yr or not, he was playing hard from day 1 of the season. Every player in NBA history turns it up in a contract yr.

Jackson has never ever, not even remotely,have been accuse of fluffing up expectations from any team he has been associated with. I don't think you quite understand the NBA or the recipe for success, because it goes way beyond the court. It starts with the mental, something that woodson and MDA have no idea, or just ain't deep enough to translate that to their players.

When you realize that the knicks didn't lose (last yr) because of the lack of talent, more then it was the lack of preparation, and understanding their roles, you will come to appreciate more, what Phil brings.

You want me to believe that a MAN who has 11 titles is fluffing up the roster to make CAA and the fans happy and excited. Not only has phil won 11 titles, 2 of them he earned as a player in what was (arguable) the most unselfish roster in knicks history. The garden was top 10 in attendance when we won 23 games, the garden was selling out when we we were in the middle of a 8 game losing streak, you don't need to hype sht up to sell tickets to a knick game.

Some of You guys need to wake the hell up and stop clamoring for young guys to get playing time so you can evaluate them for the future, who the hell does that but a bottom feed lottery team .

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:YUP! I've NEVER said this was the final product and my posts make that clear. We all know this is the starting point but that doesn't mean that Phil and Fish don't expect to win games with this team. Why would Phil even make the changes he has if not to try and improve things for this coming season???

Phil's own words make it clear he wanted to improve the team chemistry and balance and that he thinks this is a playoff team. He isn't saying it's the title contender he intends to build but that is a far cry from what some of you guys are saying about the team being garbage. Neither Phil or Fish think this team can't win this year. They are keeping things in perspective tho. It's year one of this regime. These players are just beginning the process of learning how to play winning basketball.

The key thing he said was how every single player on the roster showed up (not obligated) to pre training camp work outs.

Theirs nothing wrong with phil saying that this roster is a work in progress and i'm hoping we can be a playoff team this yr.
But he didn't say that, he is absolutely confident that this is a playoff team.

Phil doesn't do losing. He made the moves he did cuz he felt they would make a difference. He can't say this is the Finals team but he does believe they should win. These players are all excited about this season and they've been taking this off season seriously. I think media and some fans have let last years disaster infect their minds. This team does have talent enough to win games but it's up to the coaches and players to make it happen. Phil really did balance the roster as he said he would.

Jose - Prigs - Larkin
JR - THJ - Shump
Melo - Early - Outlaw
STAT - Bargs - Acy
Jason - Dalembert - Aldrich

Now it's up to Fish to figure out a rotation. I think this team is gonna be totally focused on the new culture here. They want to play team ball and have Ball and Player Movement. Any player would want to be on a team that has leaders who have won and can teach them how to win. Phil will continue to look to bring in his kind of players so this is a continual process.

nixluva wrote:The more I see of this team the more I think we will play with a deep rotation. Of course Fish has to 1st lock in on the core rotation players and figure out his starters but I do think he'll be able to extend the rotation and keep EVERYONE fresh this year.

I feel Fish will play STAT but limit his minutes. In fact most of the bigs won't need to play big minutes. Fish can cut or extend minutes depending on how they're playing. It's all gonna be based on winning. Kids can get a few minutes to help them develop and I don't see it hurting us as long as Fish picks his spots with them.

During tonight's broadcast, Fish actually said 10 or 11 man rotation.

I think that could occasionally stretch to 12, but I'd pretty much take his word at it that he wants 10 sure guys to settle on.

That's his pedigree as a member of many championship squads talking. The best squads settle on 10 or even less. We're not contenders, so that may be more flexible for now.

We may see 12 guys playing occasionally, but not late in the season, particularly if we are fighting for a playoff spot or even better seeding.

(I do think the intent is go as deep as possible no matter what and regardless of holding a first round pick).

The only wrinkle we might get is something like 10 guys a night, but the 9th and 10th guys could vary on different nights as a way for Fish to keep testing who is always ready to produce.

That's the kind of test that could go on for half the season and then get more locked down later.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The more I see of this team the more I think we will play with a deep rotation. Of course Fish has to 1st lock in on the core rotation players and figure out his starters but I do think he'll be able to extend the rotation and keep EVERYONE fresh this year.

I feel Fish will play STAT but limit his minutes. In fact most of the bigs won't need to play big minutes. Fish can cut or extend minutes depending on how they're playing. It's all gonna be based on winning. Kids can get a few minutes to help them develop and I don't see it hurting us as long as Fish picks his spots with them.

During tonight's broadcast, Fish actually said 10 or 11 man rotation.

I think that could occasionally stretch to 12, but I'd pretty much take his word at it that he wants 10 sure guys to settle on.

That's his pedigree as a member of many championship squads talking. The best squads settle on 10 or even less. We're not contenders, so that may be more flexible for now.

We may see 12 guys playing occasionally, but not late in the season, particularly if we are fighting for a playoff spot or even better seeding.

(I do think the intent is go as deep as possible no matter what and regardless of holding a first round pick).

The only wrinkle we might get is something like 10 guys a night, but the 9th and 10th guys could vary on different nights as a way for Fish to keep testing who is always ready to produce.

That's the kind of test that could go on for half the season and then get more locked down later.

Yeah my take was that Fish would have his core 9 and extend that as needed. I just think guys will get a chance to play off the bench even if it's limited minutes just to keep core players fresh. It may not sound conducive to winning but it can help the team stay strong consistently at a high level.

The roster is deep with similarly talented role players who are interchangeable. Fish has been getting the team used to playing with different teammates. They're learning to rely on the system and thus be less reliant on just a couple of guys. The trick is to avoid a major falloff when your top players aren't in there. If your bench can hold it's own for stretches that helps lead to wins.

In a transition year, there is a little more leeway, so yes. As I said, if we are fighting for a spot or seeding, that will tighten up. If we fall out of the playoff race, then it will be minutes for development first.

Calderon-Shump-Melo-Acy(?)-Dalembert starts. Pablo-Jason (notJR) Smith-Amare or Bargs (never both) Timmy-JR Smith-Cole....

Thats the roatation, everyone else enjoy garbage minutes and the pine. Hoping wear makes it, then it's Early, Larkin learning from the sideline.

Really not that hard, if you produce in multiple ways...you play.