callmened wrote:Simple question. .If the cap used to be 60 mil...and ur not allowed to go over...how did the knicks get to 87mill?

You can go over the cap to resign your own players, via Bird rights (why we were able to offer Melo the max while still being over the cap).
Then factor in annual salary increases in most players' contracts, plus draft picks coming in for additional salary. You can also still sign minimum contracts over the cap, or use a portion of the MLE.

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've discussed the $20mil available. If the cap does drastically increase we are basically screwed for another 15+ years

why would that be the case?

knicks1248 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've discussed the $20mil available. If the cap does drastically increase we are basically screwed for another 15+ years

why would that be the case?

Not sure I understand that either. I think he meant to say "doesn't."

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

Ned, these are 2 sites that I find very useful

The team salary was about 58m last season and is expected to rise 5m each year, so to about 63m this season, and 68m in 2015, 73m in 2016 (when Durant/Noah are possible UFA)
With the team salary cap, the tax penalty also rises with it from 73m to 78m this season, 83m in 2015, 88m in 2016, these are all predictions and it is possible that it could even rise to a larger amount with the NBA gaining greater revenue's which is very possible with all these superstar teams especially with Cleveland now with their monster team

There are financial penalaties as well as limited moves being repeat offenders, a reason why STAT could be traded by the deadline while using assets to unload his contract to Philly
Like not being able to do sign and trades on the recieving end, though we could sign and trade our own players to another team
There are many other moves that could be limited by being offenders since 2011, however, we can reset it by trading STAT or other combination of players like AB/JR Smith etc
Another being the 150% rule, in which we could trade for contracts/players recieving 150% of the combined contracts, till we are reset being repeat tax offenders

With the expected 5m per year to spend, it is predicted to be at about 68m in 2015, where we are pedicted to make some moves
It is possible that we could persue Durant or Noah, who both would fit in the Triangle very well with their versatility/all round skills

Hopefully CA can recruit/persaude them to come to NYK, as well as them wanting to come to NYK themsevles
Though we would need them to pull a Kevin Love, by saying he will not resign with any other team but the NYK's, giving us leverage to form a comparable talent with CA/Durant to Jordan/Pippen
With the signing of Derek Fisher and 2 of the development/assisant coaches in OKC that were very close to Durant, we are targetting Durant as a FA in 2016/17 when he is a UFA or in a possible trade, possible combinations of assets include 2015 1st round pick, 2018 1st round pick, 2020 1st round pick, as well as 2nd round picks from 2018 and after, in addition to possible players on our roster or the draft rights

There are many players that have player options or team options like

JR Smith
Pablo

Iman Shumpert
Tim Hardaway JR
Shane Larkin
Quincy Acy

With STAT and AB, we have to release their contracts, therefore losing their bird rights, as it has a salary cap hold even though their contracts end after this summer
We will have the early bird rights on players like

Cole Aldrich that we could resign and it doesn't hold much cap space because he is getting paid the vet min

Thanasis Antetokounmpo aka Tencious, being a late 2nd round pick, only has a 2 year deal but we can sign him to a 3year + deal by using cap space or exemptions like part of the MLE, LLE aka Bi Annual Exemption, this is done so we can give the players some security as well as the team so we would not get a possible poison pill

Louisiana-Lafayette would be the same situation as Tenacious, or we could continue to stash him or use him as a trade asset

We have a trade exemption that we could use within one year attained from The Tyson Chandler/Raymond Felton trade to Dallas of about 3.7m

Dalembert's contract is partial guaranteed and could be traded or kept in the future, he is making about 3.9m this year and that isn't much as we would have his bird rights if we decide to resign him to a 1-2 year deal

Jason Smith, he is making 3.3m and I am not sure if we can actually resign him next season without using a exemption or cap space, offering him a contract anywhere from 2-3m to go over the cap so we can use the FULL 5-6m MLE instead of the LLE, very surprised we didn't have a team option on him that isn't guaranteed, allowing him to be a possible trade bait to fill in salaries
While players like Greg Stimensa, Ekpe Udoh, Ed Davis, Ivan Johnson signed vet min deals, and Dante Cunningham has yet to find a contract who I would love to acquire for the vet min

2015 1st round pick, we could draft a player or package the rights to the player, 2018 and/or 2020 1st rounders, among with other asset's, players, fills in,

callmened wrote:I guess my overall question is: how do we make this team a contender again? Looks like we'll have about 20 mill for a free agent next summer. Then what?

(I was discussing this topic with a buddy of mine)

to be exact, it is very possible that the only contracts that we would have include, if Calderon has a great season, is it possible to trade him?

CA
Calderon
Early

adding up to about 30m together, with the estimate of 68m, including possible cap holds etc so about over $30m to spend

contracts, that are not guaranteed for next season include, they could also be traded, especially if we can sell them at a PEAK VALUE, while utilizing the cap space to build a roster with UFA's and some of our bird rights/early bird rights/ 2nd round draft rights, vet min contracts

JR Smith will likely opt out of his contract, likely seeking a long term contract with or without The Knicks
I think he will be ready to play this season as he was still recovering last sesaon from his surgery
If he plays anything close to how he played in his contract year with Kidd in our 54 win season, someone will pay him at least the full MLE type money
Only way I see him NOT opting out is if he suffers a major injury

Pablo Prig's, his contract is partial guaranteed but he can choose to to retire instead while we offer him a job within the Knick's orginization or as scout in Europe to make up for his contract that he is giving up to give us more money to spend

Iman Shumpert

NOT SAYING, we shouldn't pick up these contracts at their prices, but I am saying we don't have to if we can use the cap space to sign a combination of ALL STAR talents instead, so it remains a possiblity
Look at the contracts that look to join Lebron in Cleveland, if we can form a nucleus comparable to that type of talent, it would have the same effect for us, finding talents that are underpaid for a chance to play for a contending team in MSG
Also, trading them is a possiblity if we can get good/great value for them, especially with future 1st round picks, and 2nd round picks *earl/mid 2nd rounders* for next summer

Tim Hardaway JR
Larkin
Quincy Acy

1- not including possible trades

2- trade exempetions, including the 3.6 or 3.7m trade exemption gained from the Tyson Chandler trade

3- MLE or Bi Annual Exemption

4- The possiblity of buying/trading for picks, we have the 3m + to use in trades/purchase picks again

5- 2015 1st round draft pick in which could be packaged and traded for proven talents

6- Cole Aldrich, we would have his early bird rights and his cap hold is low for us for the vet min, though we can resign him for a number that would put us over the cap and allow us to have the FULL MLE to utilize

7- Draft rights to Thenasis Antetokounmpo and Louisiana Lafayette

8- Bird rights/Early Bird Rights to STAT/AB/, though they would need to take a signifigant pay cut, Dalembert/Outlaw/ not sure about Jason Smith *it is possible we can resign him though to a 1 year deal*

9- vet min contracts, again look at the players that are going to Cleveland like Shawn Marion, Mike Miller *taking less*, with Ray Allen remaining a legit possiblity to join Lebron in Cleveland

some other past vet min contracts include Swaggy P, Birdman, Gereld Green, Dejuan Blair, Matt Barnes/Pietrus, Shaun Livingston, Darren Collison *more than the vet min but not by much*

this summer
Ed Davis, Ekpe Edoh/Glen Davis, Brandon Rush,

10- CA's big black book, he really might recruit some talents next year when we actually have money to spend, and if it is TIER 1 players it could have a multiple effect

For Phil Jackson, I am sure he has plan A, B, C, etc
However, I am not sure if he is looking to sign/trade 2 ALL STAR type talents, overpay for B+ talents with a max contract, or looking to build a DEEP ROSTER with many solid players and not overpaying for talents

I am assuming from his past that he is looking to build DOMINANT ALL STAR's as he had with Jordan/Pippen as well as Rodman/Kukoch and many solid role players
With Lakers, he had 2 era's

Kobe/Shaq, with solid role players like Ron Harper/Fisher/Horace Grant/Robert Horry

Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Fisher/Shannon Brown

We are in a learning process for coaches/players to run/execute the Triangle, it will take time, and talent to master it though

However, if we can can trade for one and sign the other, it would allow us to also have the FULL MLE to persue other talents, as well as vet min players flocking to join us like they once The Heat, right now Cleveland, and even Clippers with CP3 making the pitches and assist

Noah, with some bad luck to Rose or/and Gasol, as Noah seemed to want to play with CA this past summer)

Durant, with a couple more feuds with Westbrook and OKC's inability to SPEND and keep talent, they should have amnestied Perkin's a few years ago, letting Harden go was a horrible decision
There are only so many players that you can develop and chances are they will not be nearly as good as Harden
They could have went with many routes if they did amnesty Perkins, he simply isn't nearly the same player he was in Boston with KG, Doc River's, and the veteran defensive talents like Posey/Leon Powe/Tony Allen/ Big Baby/ on top of Rhondo all combined to provide

Maybe Lebron comes to NY to chase rings (with some bad luck to injuries to Cleveland to change Lebron's mind and persue rings)
The whole Kobe/Jordan feud really got to his head, he is looking to get as many rings possible, at least with the same amount as Kobe while contributing as a top player before he retires

If it is 2015 (like the contract of CA's suggest's, unless Durant/Noah forces a trade like Love)

I like Marc Gasol as a player but not at a BIG salary, I do not think he is near elite and would need much talent to make up for the contracts to CA, Calderon, and Gasol (if anything close to 15m+)
Would rather overpay for Bledsoe, especially if we can trade for him if he signs for the qualifing offer, while we would have his bird rights and still much salary to work with
For Nalod, in any case, yes, I would still like Tony Wroten, I think he can will eventually (within 1 year or 2) become an ALL STAR with his potential =)

I would also use the salary space in the summer to force teams to consider keeping RFA or not

1- especially with Orlando, first with Tobias Harris, then with Vucevic

2- wonder what the market would be for Kawaii Leanard

3- Jimmy Butler

4- Kenneth Farried/Andre Drummond, either or as both are poor FT shooters though Drummond is much worse but as a young D12 type potential on DEFENSE/REBOUNDING/SHOT BLOCKING/ABILITY TO FINISH at OVER 50-60% with points around the basket, if they are surrounded by shooters/scorers, especially 2 way players it would be great fit, as Faried is basically a coachable Rodman 2.0 without the negatives, question is who will be the Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc and the other role players like Ron Harper/Brian Williams/Luc Longely/Wennington and those solid rotational C's, especially Brian Williams who I felt was very under rated and talented but played a smaller role due to the extreme talent

5- Klay Thompson/ Draymond Green

6- Reggie Jackson

7- Morris Brothers

Would also like Jeff Green to be our starting SG, he has a player option for about 10m

With about 30m, possibly to spend, there are many options to go

1- if divided equally, still persuade talents to take less but something like

Bledsoe
Jeff Green
Marc Gasol *or look for cheaper option, including the bird rights and development of Cole Alrich/Reuniting Jeremy Tyler hoping he WORKS this time around, cheaper options include, Robin Lopez/Asik and some of the players below*

with Rudy Gay with the full MLE

2- hoping 2 B+ players, take a BIT less, at about 10m or less, and 10m to spend on solid role players

Dragic/Bledsoe
Jeff Green
Millsap
Al Jefferson

2/3 above

combined 10m on talents like

Aaron Affalo/Jeremy Lin/Rudy Gay *it comes down to price with Gay, if we can buy sign him cheap I think he is worth the risk/reward, playing it mainly at PF*

With one being the FULL MLE, though one player I think would need to be traded to use so it would put us over the cap to have the FULL MLE to utilize vs just the Bi Annul Exemption aka LLE (though it would be close to 3m by next summer, I am not sure if we can have BOTH the LLE to use and then the full MLE as McRoberts were rumored to be MLE/LLE prior to Lebron signing with Cleveland, pretty sure it is one or the other though

or

3- 1 10-12m player and the rest to spend on very good role players like the talents of

VALUE, Players from 2m-5m (some maybe 3year about 5m deal like Gereld Green/Randy Foye, Delfino/Shawn Marion or Amir Johnson/Carlos Boozer)
===========================

Randy Foye

Brandon Rush *if he recovers to his former self* Gereld Green/Danny Green/ Gereld Henderson/Wesley Mathewws

Matt Barnes/Shawn Marion *for vet min or slightly more*/Delfino

Derrick Williams/Wilson Chandler/Morris Brothers/Dante Cunningham who has yet to find a contract

Speights/Hickson/Amir Johnson/Brandon Bass/Nick Collison/ Booker/Humphries/Dejuan Blair think these 3 all have TEAM options/

MosGoV/Koufus/Robin Lopez/ Brandon Wright/ Ernes Kanter/ Asik *not sure if he belongs on this list, think he would be worth a bit more*

vet min's
=============
Byron Mullens/AB/Copeland/Anthony Tolliver/Kleiza/Jimmer Freddete *playing Kerr's role* for the vet min, in addition to the multiple shooters that is a required skill in the Triangle
Also many G/F's that can play DEF and shoot

OLDER VETERANS include, with super discount, if we build a SOLID ALL STAR caliber foundation so they can add rings to their legacy
================

Matt Barnes/Shawn Marion

Tony Parker/Manu/ Duncan *with Duncan, LOOP HOLES being offer just a 2 year vet min deal with him only playing 1 year and paying him the 2nd year* while lining him up to have a future job of his choice with a high paying job/title of choice from management to assistantt/development coach*

Jermaine Oneil, still like productive the past 2 years surprisingly but so did Camby till he fell to NYC

Tmac/Stephen Jackson

KG, he is player that you HATE to play against but would love on your own team, he is a shell of his former self but I see value in him with the right inspiration of players, especially if he has someone for him to help develop

AK47

Darko Milic with him WORKING on his game RIGHT now for the Triangle, possibly bring him over to play for the D League and sign him to a 2 year vet min deal after if all works well, we shouldn't have to worry about injuries and mileage at least, he actually is quite skilled, good size, versatile, rebounds/post up and can shoot 17 footer, all qualities for rotation in the Triangle

Bynum/OK4, at the vet min and non gurantee deal it cannot be that bad as we could give him time to recover and the opportunity to play within the system that made him a top 3 center at one point of his career despite his 3 knee major knee injuries

Back to the your response Ned, that isn't what I meant but if we trade some of our youth for good value and gain assets, while utilizing the cap space with purpose to target players and ALL STAR's, or/and unload the contract of Pablo, with players like
I don't know what Phil Jackson's plan is but I am sure he presented one to CA to convince him to stay and judging from his past,

1- Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman/Ron Harper/Kerr/Bison Dele aka Brian Williams
2- Shaq/Kobe/Horry/Ron Harper/Fisher/Glen Rice and AC GREEN *for one year*, Rick Fox/Deveon George Horace Grant/Brian Shaw, John Salley/Travis KNIGHT!
3- Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Fisher/Ariza/Walton/Shannon Brown/ Jordan Farmer/Vucuvic
4- subsitute Ariza with MWP which I thought was a HORRIBLE move that could have resulted in at least one extra ring because Ariza fit in so well with the versatility of Odom/Gasol/Kobe, all in their primes, as well as when Walton was healthy

Larkin
Early/Tim Hardaway JR/Iman Shumpert for 2 picks each, whether it is 1 1st round and 1 2nd round, or 2 early/early mid 2nd rounders, possibly getting a player exemption as well that we can use to put us OVER the cap with trades with the some of the asset's attained, on top of spending the possible 30m + in 2015

JR Smith for a 1st rounder or 2 2nd rounders and a trade exemption *to a team like Philly/Sun's/maybe Buck's if Kidd is a fan of JR*

Quincy Acy for a 2nd rounder, maybe he can be our poor man's Faried though

TripleThreat wrote:

callmened wrote:I guess my overall question is: how do we make this team a contender again? Looks like we'll have about 20 mill for a free agent next summer. Then what?

(I was discussing this topic with a buddy of mine)

The Knicks, IMHO, need to build, slow and steady, through the draft.

Developing your own homegrown talent offers you the upside of cost controlled labor. Also it's your best opportunity to get a player who is OUTPERFORMING HIS CONTRACT. Very very very rarely does a big ticket free agent outperform his 2nd or 3rd contract. ( This usually means the player is being paid to market or sometimes above market for past performance. Usually players at this stage, except a few bigs, have made their biggest leaps in development ) In the past 20 years or so, you are looking at James to the Heat/Cavs, Shaq to the Lakers and Nash to the Suns are rare big ticket free agents who have made a huge impact to their new franchise.

In most cases, a player is a restricted and not tendered by his own club for a reason. Or he's not resigned by his own club sooner to a long term deal for a reason.

The Knicks must also stockpile assets. I've said this in another thread. Get a quarter for two dimes. Get a dollar for three quarters. Jump into other team's trades as a facilitator. Use your cap space as a rental zone for draft picks. Pick up with saavy signings guys you can flip at the deadline for a 2nd rounder or maybe a rookie lost on a deep bench.

Lots of cap space means almost nothing to most clubs. Who is out there that will be worth max money, even if they would sign with the Knicks? Odds are if they are worth max money, they can make more with their existing franchise.

The key function for the cap is CAP FLEXIBILITY - A nice mix of young players on rookie contracts who are outperforming those deals, a few expirings who have some trade value ( please do not say STAT or Bargs here, please do not, I've seen people do it, these guys have no trade value, Zen Master tried to push them off the roster this off season and no one wants them unless it's some complex way to save money against the cap) and no bad bloated deals. A healthy and well run franchise always has some cap space, but never has MASSIVE amounts of cap space. ( It means you aren't developing your own players to reup and you are moving on from players who can't/didn't help you)

Lots of people don't want to hear it, but it's going to take time.

Look at the Clippers, people point out the Chris Paul trade but it took YEARS to amass the assets in place ( Bledsoe, Gordon, Jordan, Griffin, etc) to have the chips needed to make trades and spend money and still have enough left to field a functional team.

Reggie Jackson might be a good example of a very talented player with playoff experience, young, still on his rookie deal, who is on a team almost always capped out and so top heavy that they might not be able to keep him. These are the kind of players the Knicks should be looking at. Kent Bazemore was another example. He was stuck with the Warriors, couldn't get minutes behind Iggy, Curry and Thompson and Barnes, but when he was a Laker, he showed some real talent. Enough to be a franchise player? No, but enough to show a young guy who is still developing who is cheap and can help your team.

Banking on Durant in 2016 is not practical. Trying to amass five guys like Bazemore is totally feasible.

If you want to draw in the rare high ticket/big dog alpha free agent like Durant, you need to have a strong team in place first and foremost. NY isn't a draw enough to say, "Come here and we'll build it", those big ticket guys want to hear "It's nearly built, it's a good situation for the short and long term, it's nearly built, we just need you to push us over the top"

Sadly I'm not sure this team can contend until Melo is off the roster. Defensively, to contend, you need a center who can defend the rim and isn't a total dud on offense. Guys like that, unless they are a rookie ( but how many rookie bigs really make that huge an impact unless you grab one near the top of the draft?) will push 10-14 million a year likely. You'll also need, at minimum, a pair of defensive wings who can offer elite man to man defense and give you plus athleticism and offense. None of that is cheap either. Under the new CBA, it's just really difficult to have a max player who is a lousy/lazy defender. ( You could argue Dirk was hidden by the Mavs defensively but that team was deep, built in the old CBA era, and a consistent tax paying team)