F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:We have various threads devoted to different aspects of the current Knicks situation. Threads about the Triangle, the PF's, the guards, the coaching...

I think we've been making very comprehensive points about this years team overall. The East is tougher, but let's not get carried away. IF the Knicks hadn't thrown away a ton of games early in the year they likely would've been one of the playoff teams. We still have our top players in Melo, JR and up and coming THJ. I think the rest of the roster has plenty of capable role players. The key will be maximizing the talent we have.

We started last 3-13!!! I mean that was so far below what that team should've produced. That is the kind of record you'd expect from a complete rebuild team, not a team with most of it's core returning from a 54 win season. No way that was reflective of the talent the team had and what they should've been able to do. Now the team has made some important improvements to the roster, coaching staff and style of play. It should make a huge difference.

Total proof that talent is only a piece of a successful team. The 54 win team had injuries...team struggling without a pg when Felton was injured. Shumpert still recovering from the ACL, Amare out with the debriding procedure, Camby who really never played much, Sheed done rather early, Kurt done as well, and thats on top of the coach who coached the same way for each season he's been here and the team has won games with him coaching his way.

These are not excuses, the team overcame this stuff during that 54 win season. The team lost last year because the guys on the court stunk up the joint in close games, Melo included was his 1-8 clutch play record that year.

Last years team lost 22 games by double figures, and that was a clear case of not being resilient, and that core is still here. Say what you will but that 54 win teams veteran prescence was immeasurable.

We can only hope that the off the court veteran prescence can translate onto the court,but this isnt something Phil had to endure ever before, and nobody knows how Fisher will perform as coach.

Success based on their past is NOT guaranteed, there is no Jordan Pippen & Shaq and Kobe on the floor or a Pau Gasol, or a Bynum caliber center when healthy.

There is no former DPOY winners here like Artest or former 20ppg scorers who dedicated their time under Phil just being a defnder In Ron Harper.

This group has major flaws and is an uphill climb, but likely could win more than last year by default.

Woody totally changed the way the team played during the 54 win season. We didn't run the same offense at all. Just look at how the team was playing to start last year. It was basically the half court MDA offense. Spread the floor and run PnR in the middle. Kidd was playing with energy and using his quick hands on D. He ran into a wall eventually, but the style of play was much different than what Woody started of going with in the 37 win season.

Not only was the offense different but Woody didn't seem to have a handle on the way the defense was played the year before either. The team seemed to have no idea how they wanted to defend. That's strange for a team that returned much of it's core. Just watching a game like this one exposed so much that was wrong with the Knicks last year. The funny thing about this video is that the Bulls were running our spread offense with PnR action from the year before!!! They were able to run back cuts and slashes to the basket in addition to getting wide open 3's. That's messed up.

Which goes into the point I posted that I gather you have no defense for....to lose 22 games by double digits with the same core tells alot about that core...they arent as good as some may think.

TripleThreat wrote:

dk7th wrote:i agree 100% with what you have written. since you have such good insights i would like to know: who between calderon and lin, in a vacuum, is the better guard? who would be a better knick this season?

I believe that Calderon is clearly, head and shoulders, the better shooter, really an elite gunner, and can offer better floor spacing, particularly in an offense where your primary scorer relies so much on isolation. Calderon IMHO would be the superior player on a 2nd unit as someone who could carry a reserve offense.

I believe Lin is the better value between the two because I strongly advocate something that Magic Johnson and Chuck Daly have said in the past that point guards should be measured by the answering the question if they make their teammates around them better or not.

If you factor in age, the younger player is always an uptick in value. But even if you factor age out, I think Lin elevates the play and morale of the team around him. A good litmus point for a point guard is if you have multiple players hitting low double digits in scoring. When you have 6-7-8-9 guys in low double digits, it means you aren't bogged down by different defensive looks, you are passing the ball well and you are looking for the best percentage opportunity on the floor. A good point guard realizes what his team mates can and can't do and tries to maximize putting those players in the best chance for success. Critically, I think Lin proved this with Steve Novak. Lin understood what Novak's practical range was (Novak was effective even 4-5 feet behind the three point line at times) and where he liked the ball and where he would be lethal and made sure he got him the ball in those situations.

In any offensive "system", one of the core tenets is that the defense must, absolutely MUST, give you something. A good offense and a good point guard will exploit what the defense gives you night after night. Tony Parker has the rings and pedigree and rep to take as many shots as he'd like. But if Danny Green is open, Danny Green is getting the ball, even back when Danny Green was inexperienced and not seen as reliable as the Spurs might have liked. But they play team ball. Letting Green go through his growing pains means later on, in critical moments, you aren't asking a player to step up dramatically from his previous usage to be a key factor in an important game, but that you've developed that player and his opportunity and confidence over time. The contrast is the Thunder benching young Jeremy Lamb during some struggling moments, then in the playoffs having to use a broken down Derek Fisher and/or Caron Butler instead. Tony Parker makes his team mates better around him. In the same vein, I believe Lin can offer the same upside in terms of philosophy, execution and decision making ( No, I am not comparing Lin directly to Parker)

Lin would be superior at penetration, finishing around the rim, offensive transition, reading the defense and consistently making the correct high percentage/best opportunity decision. He would also be the better team defender and has a strong knack for knowing when to take calculated risks for steals and rebounds without going full "matador/stat chaser" while guarding other players.

It takes balls, real balls, to not just chuck the ball over to your "superstar" and instead give it to a Billy Walker or Jarred Jefferies, who might be the high percentage opportunity on the play but are generally low percentage offensive options. It energizes the team and it's offense when you do your job, you will get the ball. ( You don't think the Lakers around Kobe were never demoralized that they did the dirty work, the hard bleeding, the small things, then fought to get open only to watch Mamba go one on four and never pass them the ball, even wide open, and chucked an off balance 15 footer with two guy in his face, again and again?)

Another issue no one seems to want to discuss is, despite inexperience and fatigue, as the pressure mounted ( literally the entire world was watching him), Lin simply kept rising to the occasion. An absolute ice water in the veins resolve. Just like a good NFL cornerback, Lin would shake off a bad play and focus on the next. Also the tempo and pace under Lin, was a very much attacking style/aggressive approach. The kid was like the Terminator, he wouldn't stop coming at you. Both Steve Nash and Magic Johnson went out of their way to vocalize how much they were impressed by the mental approach by such a young player with not much court time.

Another sort of unique factor with Lin is that many road games would, like Tim Tebow had going for him, be essentially home games in terms of the crowd. There were more Raptors fans cheering for Lin than the Raptors when he hit that game winning three pointer. In areas like LA and Texas, but even in other cities, you'd probably see a shift in fan support for the Knicks. How would you feel if you were a non Knick and at your home court and the crowd is cheering wildly for the opposing point guard?

Calderon is a good player, and in the right situation and fit, would be a very good asset for a team. I do not think he offers the same upside versus Lin to make the team mates around him better. I do think compared to Felton, though, he will do a much better job than Felton did to improve the offense scheme and flow in general. ( Again, hard to go anywhere but up compared to Spare Tire Gut Felton)

But given the current situation, Lin would be the better overall asset for the Knicks and for what they need currently to win and win consistently for the future.

Ah, nostalgia. I have no idea who this Lin character is that you're talking about, but he bares little resemblance to the Jeremy Lin who played for the Knicks and Rockets. The bit in bold is complete nonsense- Lin is infamous for his turnovers- you may want to believe that he is a god of efficiency and intelligence, but in actual fact he turned the ball over a lot. He's a pretty bad defender. He loses confidence and gets hung up on previously missed shots and plays. He was fearless at driving to the basket, but that just results in injuries eventually- he's a ticking time bomb if he doesn't stop being so reckless with his drives.

Lin's ceiling is Dragic- but he's not at that level yet and he might never get there. His problem is that he needs to dominate the ball, but he's not a good enough player to be the dominant player on your team. Kind of puts him in a sort of limbo.

CrushAlot wrote:

Another sort of unique factor with Lin is that many road games would, like Tim Tebow had going for him, be essentially home games in terms of the crowd. There were more Raptors fans cheering for Lin than the Raptors when he hit that game winning three pointer.

Why would the Rockets give all this up and in fact have to package draft picks to move Lin and his 'poison pill' deal to have a shot at Melo or Bosh?

more misdirection from you, which means only one thing: weak sauce.

what does question of yours have to do with lin's ACTUAL value to the knicks THIS year, were he retained? it's not lin's fault that the rockets brought in harden, rendering lin redundant. same thing happened here with the knicks. stoudemire was here first, and then dolan acquires melo, making stoudemire redundant.

there was NOBODY on the knicks that strike-shortened year that made lin redundant.

be honest-- would you not rather have had lin remain a knick? can you imagine how much better the knicks would have been that 54-28 season, with kidd mentoring lin while kidd himself remained fresh? again, try to be honest and answer the question directly.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Another sort of unique factor with Lin is that many road games would, like Tim Tebow had going for him, be essentially home games in terms of the crowd. There were more Raptors fans cheering for Lin than the Raptors when he hit that game winning three pointer.

Why would the Rockets give all this up and in fact have to package draft picks to move Lin and his 'poison pill' deal to have a shot at Melo or Bosh?

more misdirection from you, which means only one thing: weak sauce.

what does question of yours have to do with lin's ACTUAL value to the knicks THIS year, were he retained? it's not lin's fault that the rockets brought in harden, rendering lin redundant. same thing happened here with the knicks. stoudemire was here first, and then dolan acquires melo, making stoudemire redundant.

there was NOBODY on the knicks that strike-shortened year that made lin redundant.

be honest-- would you not rather have had lin remain a knick? can you imagine how much better the knicks would have been that 54-28 season, with kidd mentoring lin while kidd himself remained fresh? again, try to be honest and answer the question directly.

I loved Lin and wanted him to remain a Knick at the time. However, it isn't 'weak sauce' if a poster suggests that Lin makes opposing courts home courts to question him on it. The Rockets did give that player up along with picks to have the opportunity to get Melo or Bosh.

of all the things to focus on, you focus on the least basketball-relevant subject in his post. do you realize how much money lin would have generated for dolan?

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

Carlisle could have done the same correct?

He actually coached Calderon and won with him

Why didn't he keep him and why would he take on the supposed worst point guard in the league

Which side do you think is more damning

nixluva wrote:This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

If Jose's offensive usage is higher, possibly

If they remain what his career has been, it won't offset the negative enough

Most certainly not to the extent you're trying to finagle

nixluva wrote:I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!

Okay that's cool, anyone can do the same

It's fairly easy to do

I posted video of Felton playing offense and defense

At least there was some evidence that he was trying to play and

Giving effort when playing here

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Another sort of unique factor with Lin is that many road games would, like Tim Tebow had going for him, be essentially home games in terms of the crowd. There were more Raptors fans cheering for Lin than the Raptors when he hit that game winning three pointer.

Why would the Rockets give all this up and in fact have to package draft picks to move Lin and his 'poison pill' deal to have a shot at Melo or Bosh?

more misdirection from you, which means only one thing: weak sauce.

what does question of yours have to do with lin's ACTUAL value to the knicks THIS year, were he retained? it's not lin's fault that the rockets brought in harden, rendering lin redundant. same thing happened here with the knicks. stoudemire was here first, and then dolan acquires melo, making stoudemire redundant.

there was NOBODY on the knicks that strike-shortened year that made lin redundant.

be honest-- would you not rather have had lin remain a knick? can you imagine how much better the knicks would have been that 54-28 season, with kidd mentoring lin while kidd himself remained fresh? again, try to be honest and answer the question directly.

I loved Lin and wanted him to remain a Knick at the time. However, it isn't 'weak sauce' if a poster suggests that Lin makes opposing courts home courts to question him on it. The Rockets did give that player up along with picks to have the opportunity to get Melo or Bosh.

of all the things to focus on, you focus on the least basketball-relevant subject in his post. do you realize how much money lin would have generated for dolan?

The way the revenue sharing is distributed, this money that Lin would generate would merely be filtered to other teams. even Houston thought it could duplicate it somewhat like they enjoy with Yao...but times are different, doesnt work that way.

The focus should be Lin the player. Kidd is on record stating he came here to mentor Lin. The main thing Lin would have learned is how to play at different change of pace. It was assinine at the time to not re-sign him, the young man should have been given the 4/24 immediately on July 1.

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

Carlisle could have done the same correct?

He actually coached Calderon and won with him

Why didn't he keep him and why would he take on the supposed worst point guard in the league

Which side do you think is more damning

nixluva wrote:This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

If Jose's offensive usage is higher, possibly

If they remain what his career has been, it won't offset the negative enough

Most certainly not to the extent you're trying to finagle

nixluva wrote:I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!

Okay that's cool, anyone can do the same

It's fairly easy to do

I posted video of Felton playing offense and defense

At least there was some evidence that he was trying to play and

Giving effort when playing here

The Knicks were 24th in defensive rating and the Mavs were 22nd. Both teams SUCKED defensively last year. The Mavs were ranked 3rd in offensive rating, whereas the Knicks were 11th. IMO the Knicks grossly underperformed and I think the offense is where they can make a huge improvement this year. On D I think the Knicks could improve a little just by having a better scheme that isn't about switching every single second. What they will actually do defensively is a huge question tho, since we have no idea. I do think Fish will have them being more aggressive defensively rather than just letting teams do what they want without any pressure. We have such a deep roster that they can afford to be aggressive on D. Also being more efficient offensively will lead to fewer fast breaks for the other team.

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

Carlisle could have done the same correct?

He actually coached Calderon and won with him

Why didn't he keep him and why would he take on the supposed worst point guard in the league

Which side do you think is more damning

nixluva wrote:This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

If Jose's offensive usage is higher, possibly

If they remain what his career has been, it won't offset the negative enough

Most certainly not to the extent you're trying to finagle

nixluva wrote:I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!

Okay that's cool, anyone can do the same

It's fairly easy to do

I posted video of Felton playing offense and defense

At least there was some evidence that he was trying to play and

Giving effort when playing here

The Mavs are looking for Tyson to help their defense. They had to make a choice to find a way to enhance their D. I have no problem with them giving up a starting guard for the benefit of Tyson in their minds. I doubt they really think Felton is going to be as good as Jose. That wasn't the point of them making the deal. They have a wealth of scoring so they could afford to trade that for help with the defense. The Knicks are switching to an offense that needs a more reliable shooter and floor leader. It was a good deal for both teams. I don't think Tyson would fit in this style of play and I don't think Felton would either.

The Knicks were 24th in defensive rating and the Mavs were 22nd. Both teams SUCKED defensively last year. The Mavs were ranked 3rd in offensive rating, whereas the Knicks were 11th. IMO the Knicks grossly underperformed and I think the offense is where they can make a huge improvement this year. On D I think the Knicks could improve a little just by having a better scheme that isn't about switching every single second. What they will actually do defensively is a huge question tho, since we have no idea. I do think Fish will have them being more aggressive defensively rather than just letting teams do what they want without any pressure. We have such a deep roster that they can afford to be aggressive on D. Also being more efficient offensively will lead to fewer fast breaks for the other team.

So we were a Top 16 near Top 10 team offensive wise

Which should have been good enough to make the playoffs

Of those top offensive teams how many of them were

Eastern Conference, I'd wager not many

We played in the weaker conference

Therefore the scale was weighted more in our favor

Now we're probably weaker defensively this year

Meanwhile the whole league got better practically

However this still all comes back to

Jose vs Felton///// nix mixing on the 1s and 2s

Sorry Dallas would have never taken the risk

Being that we were ranked 24th in defense

It doesn't validly explain why Dallas

Would trade for Tyson at the hit of Felton, while giving up other assets

Tyson was on the 24th ranked worst defense in the league, you understand this correct

Here you are again trying to separate hydrogen from oxygen, while trying to produce water

Sick and twisted argument 6 pages in and counting

knickscity wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

Carlisle could have done the same correct?

He actually coached Calderon and won with him

Why didn't he keep him and why would he take on the supposed worst point guard in the league

Which side do you think is more damning

nixluva wrote:This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

If Jose's offensive usage is higher, possibly

If they remain what his career has been, it won't offset the negative enough

Most certainly not to the extent you're trying to finagle

nixluva wrote:I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!

Okay that's cool, anyone can do the same

It's fairly easy to do

I posted video of Felton playing offense and defense

At least there was some evidence that he was trying to play and

I agree with the trade assement, it really does seem the Mavs gave up quite a bit to take on two guys who were very subpar for us.

But I also know Calderon didnt fit well with Ellis, and when calderon isnt making those shots he's useless...as he was in 3 of the 4 losses Dallas took in the first round.

The Mavs needed speed and defense from their pg position, Calderon was a mistake signing and Monta wound up running the point pitting calderon at SG. But he doesnt score enough to play that role either.

But the trade makes sense for dallas...they got to correct a mistake and only have to deal with Felton for one year vs 3 more of calderon. Plus they get back Tyson whom they are sure will bounce back his love to play.

I believe that's why Phil asked for Larkin

It was an open admission suspicions of Calderon's weakness

But as you said Calderon is not good enough

To play heavy minutes off ball as a guard

Very interesting Monta averaged 5.7ast while Calderon averaged 4.7ast

Monta played 36.9min/gm Calderon played 30.5/gm

We dont have that luxury. Now even while Calderon does shoot well, how often he actually shoot? Not enough to offset his bad defense. I would even expect to see Shumpert in that role some as well since once the system is learned no player has to be a precision passer to thrive...just willing and capable.

I will eagerly await to see how long Calderon and that awful contract sits on the Knicks books, I give it one year max.

Yeah it would be one thing if

Noah and say Anthony Davis were the

Tanks behind behind Calderon's pistol

But they aren't

He's flanked by shotguns

And backed by a few assault rifles

Not gonna cut it

I give it a year to year and a half

Then narrative changes with different Youtube videos

When the time comes

Simply a difference maker and he was

Dallas wins collectively and loses the same

If you go back and watch those games

He did win at least 2 almost single handedley

Was he supposed to win all 4?

Where does Dirk factor

Here let's look at Youtube

I noticed in the stat breakdown

Calderon's defense absolutely non existent

No Blocks, No Steals, Almost no Rebounds

Also very little free throw shooting, pretty much the essentials to winning