mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Nalod wrote:Nard, you seem to thrive on Hypocrisy!

Each of Israels neighbors at one time or another has attacked them.

You can argue all the history and the morality until we chase the tail round and round. Who was there first? What is the Mecca of the Jews? Israel. What is the Mecca for Islam? Mecca.

Bottom line is the here and now. Hammas lays down its arms there is peace. Israel lays down its arms there is no israel. Can you dispute Hamas charter? No.
GOING FORWARD what are the elements for peace? Hamas stops rockets, there is no reprisal. Pretty simple.

Israel is not leaving israel. So while you might not agree with its right to exist its just not going away no matter how much hypocrisy you and others onesided can point to.
They have had the bomb for decades, yet have not used it. You think if Hamas had one they'd us it even if it meant the fall out rained down back on them? Killing both Jews and Arabs at teh same time?
If you don't believe, your an infidel, if you do believe, Allah will have your back!

If thats your belief please state it. If so, our views are not compatable and I'd just as soon find an ending. Your a good guy "otherwise"

You and I are never going to agree about this issue. At this point, I feel like I made my point clear enough. In the end, people are dying senselessly and we'll get pulled into another nonsensical conflict.

Nard,

The conversation was very respectful with you and Nalod. Would be nice to see more discussions like these even though you are far apart.

However, can you answer the question that he asked a number of times?

Do you have skin in the game? If yes, can you elaborate?

If you do not want to answer that then that is okay and I will respect your right to withhold ...

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier before I had my surgery. But back to your post...

I thought Nalod's questions were rhetorical, which is why I didn't address them directly; after all, most of them, he answered for himself outright. As for the only open-ended one I could find:

You think if Hamas had one ("the bomb" aka nuclear weapons) they'd us it even if it meant the fall out rained down back on them? Killing both Jews and Arabs at teh same time?

Pakistan and India have the same religion-centric conflict and 200 nuclear weapons between them. Have they emptied their stockpile at each other? Then why should I presume that there would be a difference in results if the dynamics were shifted from Islam-Hinduism to Islam-Judaism? Right now, our media is designed to indulge Judeo-Christian propaganda because of the heavy influence they carry in our government and the court of public opinion. Because of that, you end up with reporting that is heavily biased towards supporting certain geopolitical themes and agendas. Case and point, you ever notice how rare it is to see a Palestinian representative on television pleading their side of the case? On the other hand, I could name you 5 or 6 prominent Israeli lobbyist types off the top of my head and their positions, which automatically get framed as being the absolute and whole truth (it's how I knew of Naftali Bennett without having to do any real kind of research). History tells us, however, that there are ALWAYS two or more competing sides to a story, which is why I don't particularly trust the popular narrative that is so readily being distributed. At the end of the day, people are people. You'll have your fanatics but there are far more saner people to help counteract/moderate their effect. So why should I expect differently of the Palestinians?

And yes, I do have skin in the game and had skin in the game. My godfather and two of my cousins died in 9/11. I'm also of a lower socioeconomic background and was a ROTC cadet, so I have quite a few friends, acquaintances and relatives in the military; one of which includes another cousin that died when his humvee ran over an IED in Iraq (he was 19). The popular narrative for why they died is because 1.2 billion people "hate our freedom" enough to kill 3,000 American citizens. The real narrative is that our country has been directly/indirectly engaged in a number of operations in that region that have resulted in the deaths/maiming of millions of people, which has helped to legitimize/popularize extremists who have always had a presence there. So when I see numbers like 2,000 people being murdered, another 10,000 being severely injured and 1/3 of a population being left homeless by a country we are lock-and-step with, I know what the ramifications/repercussions/blow-back is. And for what? A land grab? Because Israeli's hate loud sounds? To perpetuate the idea that by being Muslim, one ceases to function as a normal human being ordinarily would?

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Nard, so if Hamas is given what it wants, how many Israeli's would be left alive? If Netanyahu is given what he wants, how many Palestinians would remain living free in Israel? I have multiple friends living in Israel. Christians and Muslims. How many Jews and Christians will be living free in a Hamas-based state?

How many Palestinian's were there prior to 1948? Israel was a wasteland with a few Jordanian nomads.

Continue to support the good Arab nations who have always outnumbered and outsized Israel by more than 10 to 1. And blame their continual military incompetence on the the US, Bush and conservative Christianity's support of evil Israel. Go back and look at what Israel had for armaments at the outset of hostilities.

You hate Bush and Christianity with a f**cking passion. Point taken.

You're asking these questions as though you could provide a credible answer. Unless you've upped your game to fortune teller, there is no way to know the future of Palestine. And let's not pretend that this is some isolated case of neighbors who hate themselves to the point where they can't co-exist. Because evidently (as people like you would suggest), the entire Arab/Muslim community that borders Israel share Palestinian hatred for the Israeli's and somehow Israel is doing alright and those countries go about their business. So why can't we expect the same from the Palestinians?

P.S., and how many Palestinian Arabs were there prior to '48? Evidently a population 3 times the size of those that became known as Israelis according to the UN. And evidently that "wasteland" they held was valuable enough for several empires to have fought and bled for. Ultimately, my problem isn't "that (I) hate Christianity", I just hate hypocrisy and misinformation which most religions tend to embrace.

These are quotes from the The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement , circa 1988. No fortune telling required:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have
accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,
they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred
revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the
French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the
revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret
organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -
which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies
and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...
and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the
world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge
financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them
having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

Please find a Zionist document that speaks to the obliteration of Muslim states.

You can get conflicting population figures from whatever side happens to report them. Ask the PLO, Palestine didn't have a swamp, was loaded with forests and was the greatest farmland this side of Nebraska. Zionists will tell you they had to start with nothing, or less than nothing to create a livable environment.

It's called the Old Testament, which gives the green light to kill/harm anyone that doesn't believe your religion. You don't really need to revise the manifesto though when your actions can be legitimized through secular mechanisms.

And I'm presuming,that you presume 1.5 million Palestinians are ALL part of this movement? I just want to confirm that before I call you an "idiot".

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

Miko Peled is a well known Israeli citizen and he seemed to be just fine roaming Palestinian territory. I'm not suggesting that all those people are angels but the notion that you'll get the same reaction from 1.5 million different people is ridiculous. Maybe you shouldn't go to Harlem though because the Negroes will mug you.

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

The analogy is moot. If that were the case, you send in specialized forces to take out the guy with surgical precision ala Seal Team Six. The idea that the correct response is to kill 2000 people, maim 10,000 more and leave 1/3 of the population homeless, 80% of whom are civilians, is ridiculous. And for what? I already pointed out that less than 1.6 Israeli's die every year from Hamas Rocket fire. That does not merit a genocide.