Great article on the topic, for open minded people.

PS James Harden is a perfect example of a me first player. Maybe he gets all the hate usually thrown at Melo?

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

Is Ronald McDonald part of the Illuminati Zionist movment?

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

You will now be served a diatribe explaining how the cops, the bank and the entire economic system of the world is to blame for the bank robber putting hostages (and in Hamas' case, bank robber helpers) at risk to begin with. And why should the cops have better weapons, vehicles, vests, pensions?!??

The police and the hostages are the ones to blame for supporting the evil bank and trying to uphold perverted justice!

Nope- no one makes anyone do anything- we all choose and are responsible for our own actions- Israel didn't make Hamas fire rockets and endanger peoples lives, just like Hamas didn't make Israel fire it's missiles. It's a cop out to say someone made you do something terrible- sure they can provoke you but you have to own your own **** and take ownership of how you respond. Both sides choose to kill innocent people and then try to make out they were made to do it by the other side.

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

You will now be served a diatribe explaining how the cops, the bank and the entire economic system of the world is to blame for the bank robber putting hostages (and in Hamas' case, bank robber helpers) at risk to begin with. And why should the cops have better weapons, vehicles, vests, pensions?!??

The police and the hostages are the ones to blame for supporting the evil bank and trying to uphold perverted justice!

Nope- no one makes anyone do anything- we all choose and are responsible for our own actions- Israel didn't make Hamas fire rockets and endanger peoples lives, just like Hamas didn't make Israel fire it's missiles. It's a cop out to say someone made you do something terrible- sure they can provoke you but you have to own your own **** and take ownership of how you respond. Both sides choose to kill innocent people and then try to make out they were made to do it by the other side.

the members of hamas are a thoroughly brainwashed bunch though. the indoctrination starts right away for virtually all gazans under the hypnotic sway of the hamas regime. i think it's weird to call gaza an outdoor prison. it's more like the lunatics are running the insane asylum. the biggest lunacy is that they want to destroy israel and kill all the jews. it's right there in their charter-- and it is insane. remember that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing ad infinitum expecting a different result.

if you agree that the members of hamas are insane then you can't use the excuse of "nobody made them do it." they are compelled to do what they do. that includes using the money they get to build a network of tunnels instead of infrastructure that benefits the people that elected them to power.

since it seems impossible to quarantine this diseased population, israel is doing what it can to contain the situation, emphasizing the destruction of the tunnels as the biggest symptom of mass madness.

war will always be a messy business, and hamas's strategy of completely mingling with the population and setting up tunnels to connect with mosques and schools and homes is, again, insane.

it's strange how so many apologists there are for the insane.

EXCELLENT POST DK.... hamas reminds me of someone in the street who picks a knife fight while holding an infant in one arm... just disgusting.... insane is absolutely correct..

bhuddism wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

You will now be served a diatribe explaining how the cops, the bank and the entire economic system of the world is to blame for the bank robber putting hostages (and in Hamas' case, bank robber helpers) at risk to begin with. And why should the cops have better weapons, vehicles, vests, pensions?!??

The police and the hostages are the ones to blame for supporting the evil bank and trying to uphold perverted justice!

Nope- no one makes anyone do anything- we all choose and are responsible for our own actions- Israel didn't make Hamas fire rockets and endanger peoples lives, just like Hamas didn't make Israel fire it's missiles. It's a cop out to say someone made you do something terrible- sure they can provoke you but you have to own your own **** and take ownership of how you respond. Both sides choose to kill innocent people and then try to make out they were made to do it by the other side.

the members of hamas are a thoroughly brainwashed bunch though. the indoctrination starts right away for virtually all gazans under the hypnotic sway of the hamas regime. i think it's weird to call gaza an outdoor prison. it's more like the lunatics are running the insane asylum. the biggest lunacy is that they want to destroy israel and kill all the jews. it's right there in their charter-- and it is insane. remember that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing ad infinitum expecting a different result.

if you agree that the members of hamas are insane then you can't use the excuse of "nobody made them do it." they are compelled to do what they do. that includes using the money they get to build a network of tunnels instead of infrastructure that benefits the people that elected them to power.

since it seems impossible to quarantine this diseased population, israel is doing what it can to contain the situation, emphasizing the destruction of the tunnels as the biggest symptom of mass madness.

war will always be a messy business, and hamas's strategy of completely mingling with the population and setting up tunnels to connect with mosques and schools and homes is, again, insane.

it's strange how so many apologists there are for the insane.

Do you have any skin in the game or is this just your unbiased opinion?

no skin in the game. and opinions by their vary nature are biased. my bias is basically that i am against irrationality and therefore have a hard time stomaching religion except maybe buddhism because it is the closest to describing the universe that i study.

i harbor strong opinions about settlement expansion and the "drive the jews into the sea" stuff. i really can't stand religious kooks/extremists of any kind.

anecdotally i had to visit egypt and israel for work a week or so and that was during a period of calm. the minute i got off the plane in tel aviv my head was on a swivel for all the great looking israeli women and girls there-- holy moley. amazing what a little sun, a little military training will do for a girl.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

You will now be served a diatribe explaining how the cops, the bank and the entire economic system of the world is to blame for the bank robber putting hostages (and in Hamas' case, bank robber helpers) at risk to begin with. And why should the cops have better weapons, vehicles, vests, pensions?!??

The police and the hostages are the ones to blame for supporting the evil bank and trying to uphold perverted justice!

Nope- no one makes anyone do anything- we all choose and are responsible for our own actions- Israel didn't make Hamas fire rockets and endanger peoples lives, just like Hamas didn't make Israel fire it's missiles. It's a cop out to say someone made you do something terrible- sure they can provoke you but you have to own your own **** and take ownership of how you respond. Both sides choose to kill innocent people and then try to make out they were made to do it by the other side.

the members of hamas are a thoroughly brainwashed bunch though. the indoctrination starts right away for virtually all gazans under the hypnotic sway of the hamas regime. i think it's weird to call gaza an outdoor prison. it's more like the lunatics are running the insane asylum. the biggest lunacy is that they want to destroy israel and kill all the jews. it's right there in their charter-- and it is insane. remember that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing ad infinitum expecting a different result.

if you agree that the members of hamas are insane then you can't use the excuse of "nobody made them do it." they are compelled to do what they do. that includes using the money they get to build a network of tunnels instead of infrastructure that benefits the people that elected them to power.

since it seems impossible to quarantine this diseased population, israel is doing what it can to contain the situation, emphasizing the destruction of the tunnels as the biggest symptom of mass madness.

war will always be a messy business, and hamas's strategy of completely mingling with the population and setting up tunnels to connect with mosques and schools and homes is, again, insane.

it's strange how so many apologists there are for the insane.

EXCELLENT POST DK.... hamas reminds me of someone in the street who picks a knife fight while holding an infant in one arm... just disgusting.... insane is absolutely correct..

If it's disgusting for someone to put a child in harms way (which it is), why is it okay for the other side to actually kill that child that was put in harms way? I don't get the double standard. It's like me saying 'that monster used his child as a human shield, so I shot the child!'

One side is being judged on morality, the other side is getting morality suspended and is just being judged in practicality. If we suspend the morality for Hamas, you can technically argue that if you have an inferior army, then guerrilla tactics make sense- otherwise you'd just get annihilated. Does that make it okay? Absolutely not.

Besides which killing isn't even practical as you just feed in to a cycle of hate violence and revenge- long term it makes no sense.

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

So a guy is in a ny appartment building, blindfolded firing a rifle randomly at the people below- do the police respond by firing a missile and levelling the building and killing the kids in the apartment next door? Yep the gunman put them in harms way but is it really fair, proportional or okay for those kids?

Not apples to apples.

First off its not ok for any kids and nobody here is saying so. But your saying its ok for Hamas to toss 2700 misiles and because its not killing anyone (yet) its ok. Its not.

IM saying the crime is Hamas is using their citizens as shields. That's just wrong. Israel is defending itself. What about the tunnels? why do you think they were digging them? We have read of a plot by which Hammas was to infiltrate Israel, go on a killing spree, grab as many kids as they could and place them by Missiles and use them as shields.

Evil.

I think the process of diverting materials to build tunnels, and smuggling arms is more premeditated than reactionary.

I'm not saying it's okay for Hamas to fire rockets- I've continually said that it's reprehensible.

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

Nalod wrote:21% of israels population is Arab. They are christian and Muslim.

What is the % of Gaza's population is Jewish? Christian?

When I was in Israel I met many Muslims who were professionals, going to school, etc. They hated certain aspects of the Israeli Govt, but no different than maybe many Tea Party people hating Obama.

When I went to Bethlehem to visit Jesus' birthplace, I was told to never tell anyone that I was Jewish or I would be murdered. The population of Jews in Gaza is zero is because they would be murdered on the spot.

To be honest- if you were Jewish and had the choice why the hell would you chose Gaza over Israel?! Gaza is basically a decaying giant prison!

I think you over exaggerate things- there are always people looking for an excuse to kill people out there, the majority of people aren't murderers though (mind you you only need to get unlucky once!)- and if you want to look at it that way, looking at the stats, Israelis kill way way way more people living in Palestine than Palestinians kill people living in Israel. I don't really like the way a lot of posts are basically trying to encourage racism- 'Israeli people are great, Palestinians are evil and savage'- we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure. The 'oh but you don't know what they're really like!' is the kind of crap that people have used to justify all sorts of reprehensible behaviour.

Like when Hamas tells their own to ignore warnings from the Israeli's and stay in their homes? And can you stop with the body counts? Less Israelis die because their government invests in things like bomb shelters and the Iron Dome. While Hamas spends time digging tunnels and storing rockets in UN schools and teaching the ins and outs of become human busbombs.

Did you even read the article?

And where the hell did you pull this from?

we're all smart enough to know that most people are the same just in different situations and that there are good and bad in equal measure.

So all people are equally good and bad and are in different situations. That takes intelligence? Then where are the Israeli terrorists walking onto buses in Gaza?

They are too busy blasting schools and kids with high tech weaponry

Smack,

say a guy walks into a bank and takes hostages while trying to rob it. He stands behind the hostages while shooting at the cops and thru the window to people on the street. He does not hit anyone because the police has moved people away from the window and the shopping area across the street and the police have vests on.

The police are telling the guy to stop shooting. why? He is damaging property and its just a matter of time before he kills someone. He finally wounds an officer and its evident they are in danger. While shooting with the cops the police feel too many are in danger and they decide to bring in a sniper to take the guy out. The Bank Robber is smart and keeps the hostages moving in an unpredicatible manner. The Sharp Shooter misses and ends up killing a hostage.

Whose at fault? Technically the Bank Robber. He put the hotages in place. By the Robber shooting he creates the urgency. Stop shooting and he either gives up or kills himself.

Hammas is putting its people in front of the rockets.

You will now be served a diatribe explaining how the cops, the bank and the entire economic system of the world is to blame for the bank robber putting hostages (and in Hamas' case, bank robber helpers) at risk to begin with. And why should the cops have better weapons, vehicles, vests, pensions?!??

The police and the hostages are the ones to blame for supporting the evil bank and trying to uphold perverted justice!

Nope- no one makes anyone do anything- we all choose and are responsible for our own actions- Israel didn't make Hamas fire rockets and endanger peoples lives, just like Hamas didn't make Israel fire it's missiles. It's a cop out to say someone made you do something terrible- sure they can provoke you but you have to own your own **** and take ownership of how you respond. Both sides choose to kill innocent people and then try to make out they were made to do it by the other side.

the members of hamas are a thoroughly brainwashed bunch though. the indoctrination starts right away for virtually all gazans under the hypnotic sway of the hamas regime. i think it's weird to call gaza an outdoor prison. it's more like the lunatics are running the insane asylum. the biggest lunacy is that they want to destroy israel and kill all the jews. it's right there in their charter-- and it is insane. remember that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing ad infinitum expecting a different result.

if you agree that the members of hamas are insane then you can't use the excuse of "nobody made them do it." they are compelled to do what they do. that includes using the money they get to build a network of tunnels instead of infrastructure that benefits the people that elected them to power.

since it seems impossible to quarantine this diseased population, israel is doing what it can to contain the situation, emphasizing the destruction of the tunnels as the biggest symptom of mass madness.

war will always be a messy business, and hamas's strategy of completely mingling with the population and setting up tunnels to connect with mosques and schools and homes is, again, insane.

it's strange how so many apologists there are for the insane.

I work in mental health- they aren't insane. They are coming from an angry place- and when you come from an angry place you just focus on immediate needs, usually vengeance, and then when they try to justify horrific actions they have done, they shirk responsibility by dehumanising the other side (so it's suddenly okay to do what they did because the people they did it to 'deserve' it) and then blaming the other side for 'making' them do it. Both sides do this.

you work in mental health-- kudos to you as that must be a tough gig. but i don't know how "vengeance" is an immediate need. please explain this statement.

so far as my using the word "insane"-- i stand by it and here's why: it is insane to teach your children to hate, to believe in an invisible place where an invisible deity you go to by killing others or killing yourself in order to kill others by blowing yourself up.

the trouble is that insane people can often reason, rationalize, and justify their world view. every time i see these hamas spokespeople i know i am looking at lunatics. the main thing is they lack inwardness, always looking to demonize others to justify their hatred, anger, misery. it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. and this is not restricted to arabs-- i see lunatics among the jews and the christians as well. they are pretty much all cults to me.

that's why i advocate amorality and promote ethics. the former is attached to values, often religiously-based values that can be manipulated to justify harming others.

with ethics as i understand them, the only issue is whether my actions or words are harming others or benefitting others.

ghandi and dr. king were ethicists despite their religious trappings.

I get where you're coming from- I have a hard time believing Hamas genuinely believe what they espouse because I find it hard to accept you could look at your own kid and believe that.

The vengeance thing- basically look on anger as basically a response a boundary violation ie someone has done something that is fundamentally not okay. Now that's not always a bad thing- it's designed to keep us safe, and allow us to restate the boundary, but unfortunately when youre coming from that place the anger is just focused on that immediate need- 'I have to stop this' (re enforce the boundary) or 'I have to make them pay!' (Protest at the boundary violation)- there is no consideration to the wider picture or longer term needs. That's why when people are overwhelmed with anger they tend to make horrific judgements and hurt/kill people. Of course that's just my interpretation!