Vmart wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:It's basically the same team that won 54 games. So yes I could see this team win 50 games, its just that the leadership will have to come from someone other than JKidd. I think Fisher and Calderon can provide that and having Phil is huge for team Psyche.

It's much closer to the 37 win team. The only thing that's changed is that we replaced the PG with a less bad one - still a PG who gets outrpoduced by his opponent though.

Nice to keep the expectations low. Expect the worst hope for the best attitude. That basically is NYK fan's motto anyway.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:They wont win 54 like they did under Woody, but should be more cohesive.

Not sure where you get the idea that Melo's usage is gonna go down, if anything it may go up.

He just wont be tasked to score every trip down, the team will learn that they have options based on the defense presented, the essence of the triangle.

But make no mistake he will have his lion share of the ball decisions just Like Jordan and Kobe who had huge usage numbers.

The usage isnt a problem, putting it to work in a team orientation was the issue last year.

Perhaps you're right about Melo's usage rate, but I do expect that they won't wear him out and that means he'll likely play a few less minutes per game and he won't have to work so hard on every scoring attempt. A high % of ISO plays is draining as Melo has to work harder to get his points. In the Triangle Melo should get more easy scoring opps which should make him more efficient.

I'm betting that Melo's total minutes will be substantially less than he played under Woody. Last year in just 77 games he logged 2982 minutes which was more than any year except for his Rookie season in which he played 2995 minutes but in 80 games. Better TEAM play will allow Fish to save Melo for closing moments. Not to mention that since the offense is less predictable and includes more players in the scheme, that will make Melo more dangerous. Under Woody we were perhaps the easiest team to defend in the closing moments. Teams knew what we would do and it was easy to defend. At least with the Triangle there is off ball motion and multiple options.

Honestly I'd think the team would be getting shorted if Melo played less minutes unless games result in blowouts. His minutes were pretty much in the normal range of a star plaeyer. He may have had a few more in total due to the teams rather poor defense that never could create separation combined with an inefficient offense. With this aspect i do wonder if Fisher will challenge melo to come to camp in better shape for a full season grind like Woody actually said publicly about Melo when he took over.....basically the team will need "olympic melo".

But make no mistake Phil has always used his star players to the max and their durability has always been tested.

They had high usage rates and played alot of minutes regardless of the offense. Cant imagine that changing with Fisher being the extension of Phil.

Fisher definitely knows firsthand by playing with Kobe how much he was utilized.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Vmart wrote:It's basically the same team that won 54 games. So yes I could see this team win 50 games, its just that the leadership will have to come from someone other than JKidd. I think Fisher and Calderon can provide that and having Phil is huge for team Psyche.

It's much closer to the 37 win team. The only thing that's changed is that we replaced the PG with a less bad one - still a PG who gets outrpoduced by his opponent though.

Nice to keep the expectations low. Expect the worst hope for the best attitude. That basically is NYK fan's motto anyway.

Not if here is any indication. People almost always overpredict the win total by about 10.

No matter the team, keep it optimistically safe by predicting 10 more than whatever outside national outlets say.

Looks like you have us winning 3 more gms, I have us losing about 3 more gms

We very well could end up with the exact same record 37-45.

Sho-guy probably picks right again this year, ESPN is usually on when it comes to our division

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:someone expecting more than .500 from this team will have to explain to me how a new coaching staff and system is going to account for an extra 10-15 wins this season. the knicks ranked 21st means that their defense puts them in a 5 or 6 game hole below .500 to begin with.

this means the offense has to be able to account for another 6-15 wins, which would rank them as one of the top offenses in the league. that's asking an awful lot.

I think if you use reason you can get to the rationale for a big improvement over last year. You could hardly have worse production than we had from our guards last year. This from a team that basically lived off the production from the guard spots to win 54 games. There's no way this team loses so many games if our guards had shot the ball better most of early last season. JR got hot late, but really this team lost a LOT of games early on that they could've won. We lost 21 games in the 1st 2 months!!!

JR:  FG%   3PT%  FT%     Felton: FG% 3PT%  FT%     Shump: FG%   3PT%  FT%          
Nov. 32.8  28.6  59.1    Nov.  36.6  23.7  85.7    Nov.   40.5  34.4  78.6
Dec. 36.8  39.8  61.1    Dec.  40.7  39.1  62.5    Dec.   31.4  27.9  71.4
Jan. 43.1  39.1  56.3    Jan.  43.4  29.7  70.4    Jan.   43.6  40.6  73.7
Feb. 41.7  39.7  64.5    Feb.  37.4  29.7  61.9    Feb.   31.3  32.0  00.0
Mar. 45.1  40.2  81.0    Mar.  38.5  37.1  73.7    Mar.   36.5  36.1  100.0 (2-2)
Apr. 49.6  46.3  78.6    Apr.  37.3  38.1  78.6    Apr.   40.4  19.0  60.0

IMO it's not just overly optimistic to think this team can play much better basketball with a proven system that promotes teamwork and with better fitting players and Jose at PG who is a highly efficient player. We should expect a more efficient team all the way around. This is why I think this team can win 50 games and win the Atlantic. No they won't be amazing defensively, but as long as they are decent they will win games.

lets go a step further. i care about playoff success, if . how well will they do in the playoffs? what do you foresee?

i realize this may be harder to predict but nonetheless-- how far do they go, nixluva?

gunsnewing wrote:I can accept bringing Melo back. I understand Phil and Dolan playing it safe keeping Melo around. Selling tickets, merch and making the playoffs over drafting and developing stars.

I still hate Melo. Don't like how he goes about his business and seems to think we are idiots and how he talks out of both sides of his mouth. That will never change for me.

The Knicks have brought me nothing but misery for 15yrs. What's another 5-10yrs?

54 win team was a lot of fun. They exceeded expectation and the way they played at seasons end there was little to expect beyond a 1st round play.

NBA players say what you want to hear. Thats on you as to how you want to digest it.

We have yet to hear Amare's prognostications for the upcoming season.

From Ewings "guarantee's" to Amare's enthusiasm. Its lots of talk.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:someone expecting more than .500 from this team will have to explain to me how a new coaching staff and system is going to account for an extra 10-15 wins this season. the knicks ranked 21st means that their defense puts them in a 5 or 6 game hole below .500 to begin with.

this means the offense has to be able to account for another 6-15 wins, which would rank them as one of the top offenses in the league. that's asking an awful lot.

I think if you use reason you can get to the rationale for a big improvement over last year. You could hardly have worse production than we had from our guards last year. This from a team that basically lived off the production from the guard spots to win 54 games. There's no way this team loses so many games if our guards had shot the ball better most of early last season. JR got hot late, but really this team lost a LOT of games early on that they could've won. We lost 21 games in the 1st 2 months!!!

JR:  FG%   3PT%  FT%     Felton: FG% 3PT%  FT%     Shump: FG%   3PT%  FT%          
Nov. 32.8  28.6  59.1    Nov.  36.6  23.7  85.7    Nov.   40.5  34.4  78.6
Dec. 36.8  39.8  61.1    Dec.  40.7  39.1  62.5    Dec.   31.4  27.9  71.4
Jan. 43.1  39.1  56.3    Jan.  43.4  29.7  70.4    Jan.   43.6  40.6  73.7
Feb. 41.7  39.7  64.5    Feb.  37.4  29.7  61.9    Feb.   31.3  32.0  00.0
Mar. 45.1  40.2  81.0    Mar.  38.5  37.1  73.7    Mar.   36.5  36.1  100.0 (2-2)
Apr. 49.6  46.3  78.6    Apr.  37.3  38.1  78.6    Apr.   40.4  19.0  60.0

IMO it's not just overly optimistic to think this team can play much better basketball with a proven system that promotes teamwork and with better fitting players and Jose at PG who is a highly efficient player. We should expect a more efficient team all the way around. This is why I think this team can win 50 games and win the Atlantic. No they won't be amazing defensively, but as long as they are decent they will win games.

lets go a step further. i care about playoff success, if . how well will they do in the playoffs? what do you foresee?

i realize this may be harder to predict but nonetheless-- how far do they go, nixluva?

1. Bulls
2. Cavs
3. Knicks
4. Pacers
5. Raptors
6. Wiz
7. Nets
8. Heat

Bulls, Cavs and Knicks have the top 3 players in the East. I like the Knicks chances. Last year was a disaster but I think Phil has revamped the roster and with a better system and coaching this team should be much improved. Plus keep this in mind. The Knicks might have the most motivated roster in the East.

Playing for Contract:
Bargs
STAT
Dalembert
Jason
Shump
Cole

Plus a few hungry kids. It's also good to note that the players and everyone in the franchise is pumped about Phil being here and there's a new sense of pride. We saw some of that in the SL. No we don't have the best talent, but there's more to it than just having talent. I think the elements are there for this team to do better this year. The players don't want a repeat of last year. I think the entire team is gonna be highly motivated.

knickscity wrote:Having that many players looking to eat actually can hurt a team as they would more likely go against the grain to show how valuable THEY are vs the team.

Meshing is hardly a guarantee, it could implode if the players think like you do.

But this less usage and less minutes thing is senseless at best.

Kobe AND Shaq here highly used and played minutes galores as did Jordan and Pippen.

Nobody on our team is on the level of either of these to provide "breaks" from play time.

melo might need to be ready to play 40 minutes a game.

Phil is the one who said:

"He's had to carry a big load. It's been a tough year for him. But it's been a tough year for everyone. It's not just isolated with him. But I think he feels the weight of it a lot more on himself."

"When Carmelo had to carry the load in scoring, a lot of times on his own back, and other people weren't stepping into helping him carry that load..."

“If we’re still going to sit and rely on Carmelo to do everything and put that load on him, that’s not going to happen,” Jackson said of the Knicks’ chances at immediate success. “Sometimes it means buying into the system and giving yourself into a process.”

That system is, of course, the triangle offense, something the Knicks have even been running during their first couple games at Las Vegas Summer League. It’s practice for Derek Fisher and the coaching staff, and a rehearsal for the players, many of whom will be on the roster once the regular season begins. For the first time in his career, Anthony will adjust to playing within the triangle.

“One of the things about the offensive system is you can’t try to score every time you catch the ball,” Jackson says about Anthony’s ball-dominant culture. “You have to participate and you also have to have guys who are strong enough to know that there’s a whole offense to run.”

It has become such a common topic: Will the Knicks and Melo thrive within the triangle? But really, this isn’t about a “system” or “the triangle” as much as it’s about style.

Anthony has been a ball-dominant player throughout his NBA career. Last season, when he isolated more on a per-play basis than any other qualifying player in the league, per Synergy Sports, was no different. But maybe next year can be.

“He admired San Antonio’s game and how they played, and that’s the way we want to play,” Jackson said of Melo’s prospects on becoming a ball-mover.

We’ve seen Anthony shy away from dribbling and transform into a leading catch-and-shoot player in the past. That is what we call Olympic Carmelo. In the NBA, that style still has a chance to consume Melo’s game, though it doesn’t need to all the time. Anthony’s ability to create on his own remains one of the most valuable assets the Knicks have.

“You need to have that man who can get shots on his own,” Jackson theorizes about NBA offense. “Then, you have a guy that’s a great bailout guy in Carmelo.”

No one in the Eastern Conference can pull off that skill better than Anthony, and coming off one of the best statistical seasons of his career, it’s possible we see a better Melo than we’ve seen before once he fully adjusts to a new system.

gunsnewing wrote:You people are funny laying your predictions on the line. Then when you are wrong and called out at the end of the year the guy who was right is only worried about being right. And everyone just shrugs him off lol

It's not hard to predict bad things for a team that has been run like the Knicks. You're no f'n BB genius for that. Just be negative every year and with Dolan running things you're bound to be right more often than not. Except the media mostly got it wrong with the 54 win team. If you simply base your predictions on the disfunction of the Dolan led Knicks as the media often does, that's not brave or intellectual. Just playing the odds that something will go wrong cuz... DOLAN.

We haven't been wrong every year it just seems that way because of the ineptness of Dolan and his management team. Even in a year when the team makes the playoffs they find a way to mess things up. This makes it seem like the team has had nothing but losing seasons since Melo's been here, which isn't true. So no we haven't always been wrong about the talent on the floor. Often times it was management that let the team down. Now at least Knicks fans should be more positive with new and competent leadership. NOPE, still the haterz are jumpin in with nothing but "Knicks Suck" arguments hoping they'll be proven right once again due to the historic ineptness of the Knicks. No real BB based rationale, just pure "Self Hating Knicks Fan" pessimism. Here's to hoping Phil shoves it right down your throats.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Having that many players looking to eat actually can hurt a team as they would more likely go against the grain to show how valuable THEY are vs the team.

Meshing is hardly a guarantee, it could implode if the players think like you do.

But this less usage and less minutes thing is senseless at best.

Kobe AND Shaq here highly used and played minutes galores as did Jordan and Pippen.

Nobody on our team is on the level of either of these to provide "breaks" from play time.

melo might need to be ready to play 40 minutes a game.

Now you're just being difficult. You think you have a legit point but you're missing the big picture and highly doubting the skills of Phil Jackson. It just doesn't seem necessary to have Melo burn himself out. Now it's possible if Melo is finding it really easy to score and he's not having to exert himself too much. Last year Melo had to do too much IMO. No one was scoring!!! It's not just about how many minutes your on the floor, which was what I was getting at with the Usage Rate comment. If Melo learns how to use the system to the benefit of not just himself but his teammates he'll save energy even if he plays 40 minutes. It's about scoring easy and sharing the load. TEAM BALL!!! More Olympic Melo than ISO Melo.

Phil is the one who said:

"He's had to carry a big load. It's been a tough year for him. But it's been a tough year for everyone. It's not just isolated with him. But I think he feels the weight of it a lot more on himself."

"When Carmelo had to carry the load in scoring, a lot of times on his own back, and other people weren't stepping into helping him carry that load..."

“If we’re still going to sit and rely on Carmelo to do everything and put that load on him, that’s not going to happen,” Jackson said of the Knicks’ chances at immediate success. “Sometimes it means buying into the system and giving yourself into a process.”

That system is, of course, the triangle offense, something the Knicks have even been running during their first couple games at Las Vegas Summer League. It’s practice for Derek Fisher and the coaching staff, and a rehearsal for the players, many of whom will be on the roster once the regular season begins. For the first time in his career, Anthony will adjust to playing within the triangle.

“One of the things about the offensive system is you can’t try to score every time you catch the ball,” Jackson says about Anthony’s ball-dominant culture. “You have to participate and you also have to have guys who are strong enough to know that there’s a whole offense to run.”

It has become such a common topic: Will the Knicks and Melo thrive within the triangle? But really, this isn’t about a “system” or “the triangle” as much as it’s about style.

Anthony has been a ball-dominant player throughout his NBA career. Last season, when he isolated more on a per-play basis than any other qualifying player in the league, per Synergy Sports, was no different. But maybe next year can be.

“He admired San Antonio’s game and how they played, and that’s the way we want to play,” Jackson said of Melo’s prospects on becoming a ball-mover.

We’ve seen Anthony shy away from dribbling and transform into a leading catch-and-shoot player in the past. That is what we call Olympic Carmelo. In the NBA, that style still has a chance to consume Melo’s game, though it doesn’t need to all the time. Anthony’s ability to create on his own remains one of the most valuable assets the Knicks have.

“You need to have that man who can get shots on his own,” Jackson theorizes about NBA offense. “Then, you have a guy that’s a great bailout guy in Carmelo.”

No one in the Eastern Conference can pull off that skill better than Anthony, and coming off one of the best statistical seasons of his career, it’s possible we see a better Melo than we’ve seen before once he fully adjusts to a new system.

But make no mistake, Phil's star players have ALWAYS been scorers and they score alot, feel free to name one who didnt.... but they also make plays and complete them while they're on the court. This rainbow in the sky thinking that melo will play less minutes and get used less is just pure lack of knowledge of Phil's system.

Watch the Bulls and Lakers when Phil coached them and state what you really think is gonna change with the way the star player is used.

Absoultely nothing. melo will still average around 28 per, play no lees than 36, which honestly would be too low, and his usage is gonna spike up because he'll be scoring AND making plays.

Phil and Fisher will be changing Melo's midset, his game wont be altered much at all.

there is zero evidence that it wouldnt based on Phil's actual history with his stars.