Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Another poster, I believe TKF, made a great point about guys putting themselves out there to recruit. If the player being recruited doesn't come to your team you have to go to practice and face the guys that you play with that would have had to have been moved so that you could get a guy that you preferred to play with. Rose is on record as saying he wanted Anthony and talked to him about how great it would be playing in Chicago. He also was present when Melo was on his recruiting visit.

When you recruit a player, you don't know who the GM is going to trade. That makes no sense. At best, you could guess but you wouldn't know. You don't even have to move players if the guy is signing as an FA anyway.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Rose didn't call/recruit Melo but personally talk to Gasol so that means what?

Rose didn't recruit Lebron James when he was up a few years ago so what did that mean?

Noah, the team leader and heart and soul of the team, did recruit Melo so what does that mean?

Also, when you continually only have the mMLE it's pretty hard to say your are building. It's pretty hard to Build when there is an anchor weighing down your FA moves. Then on top of that you make a terrible trade by giving up a 1st. I saw the trade for Bargs coming but I didn't see the 1st rd draft pick.

rose didn't want melo because it would be a terrible fit-- despite what noah said... and noah s hands down one of my favorite players, a top ten player.

rose didn't want lebron because he would have to change his game too much at too early an age-- plus rose got shut down by lebron that one series.

rose wants to play with gasol because that's a great fit.

Haha what? Is that a fact now?

yes, at key junctures lebron hounded him into bad games. but overall rose was very bad. you can look at numbers for that series yourself:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/

note his FG% and his TS%.

the one game he sort of played like a point guard he still managed to hoist 23 shots, converting 7 of them.

ha ha ha... what indeed

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Rose didn't call/recruit Melo but personally talk to Gasol so that means what?

Rose didn't recruit Lebron James when he was up a few years ago so what did that mean?

Noah, the team leader and heart and soul of the team, did recruit Melo so what does that mean?

Also, when you continually only have the mMLE it's pretty hard to say your are building. It's pretty hard to Build when there is an anchor weighing down your FA moves. Then on top of that you make a terrible trade by giving up a 1st. I saw the trade for Bargs coming but I didn't see the 1st rd draft pick.

rose didn't want melo because it would be a terrible fit-- despite what noah said... and noah s hands down one of my favorite players, a top ten player.

rose didn't want lebron because he would have to change his game too much at too early an age-- plus rose got shut down by lebron that one series.

rose wants to play with gasol because that's a great fit.

Haha what? Is that a fact now?

yes, at key junctures lebron hounded him into bad games. but overall rose was very bad. you can look at numbers for that series yourself:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/

note his FG% and his TS%.

the one game he sort of played like a point guard he still managed to hoist 23 shots, converting 7 of them.

ha ha ha... what indeed

knickscity wrote:This situation is a different situation for Phil, Phil has never had to build a team from the ground, the main components were already there in both of his nba ship situations, already winning games, but hadnt made the championship step.

This team is coming from being in the lottery with quite a few question marks from a player's standpoint based on the words Phil has spoken.

It's just not cut and dry "dont you believe in phil?" When I look at Phil's past I see him having at his disposal two top players in the game on both his ship teams...one being alpha and the other being super superb secondary player who was also a top player.

Jordan and Shaq were the alpha's....Pippen was the secondary as was Kobe.....and when Phil didnt have his alphas the road was harder, much harder.

When I see the Knicks I see a secondary in Melo who is neither on the level of Kobe or Pippen, but no alpha, so Phil is automatically disadvantaged, but in Phil's defense his triangle evolved from one team to the next, so I'd expect the same here.

But the notion that it should be expected improvement, well the team stunk last year, an improvement wont take much to accomplish, but marked improvement will be needed to attract free agents especially....basically players incoming have to like what they see and the possibilities of what themselves can be in it.

Now while I really doubt certain players will excel in this system, i will say those players will recieve a chance to do so.

Even Karl malone admitted it took a long adjustment, and Gary Payton admitted he coulndt figure it out.

This is a new animal for Phil and while I think he's up to the challenge along with Fisher, the territory is new and neither has been at this place.

i hope for success, but wouldnt bet my house on it.

I actually think Phil knows what he's doing. Sure there are things he'll experience for the 1st time but it's his judgment that I trust. I've been a manager of Projects and for the most part they've all been successful. Proper planning, choosing the right people for key jobs, proper execution and timing are all key aspects of a successful project. I see Phil as a man who you could put in a lot of different situations and he'd be a successful manager. He puts a lot of thought into his job. He has principles that he adheres to that cut across many different situations.

His wanting to instill a team mentality here and use a system that helps to ensure that is more than smart. He has principles to winning and that extends even to building a team. Why because he knows what a team needs to be successful. He's not just winging it like a lot of people. He's breaking it down to a formula that may not guarantee a title, but should make for a successful team regardless.

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

This isn't just a synopsis of a good offense but it's also a blueprint for building a team. You're looking for players that fit that ideal. He knew he had to have Melo cuz that fits what a successful offense needs in terms of a player with great individual talent. Now since that talent is rare, he doesn't have to worry about that having locked up Melo. Now he can concern himself with the rest of the roster of role players. He's much closer to putting a contender together with Melo than without him. Adding a player like Jose who can be a glue type player is also a very important key.

As for guys like Malone and Peyton not getting it, that was on them. Old dogs they simply didn't really buy into learning what they needed to learn. It was a mental resistance. The offense was designed for High Schoolers and College kids. It's really not that hard as our SL kids proved. There's a depth to the teachings of Phil and the longer he has our players in this culture the better. It's a culture designed for success. No different than the culture the Spurs have. Continued success is not an accident.

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Another poster, I believe TKF, made a great point about guys putting themselves out there to recruit. If the player being recruited doesn't come to your team you have to go to practice and face the guys that you play with that would have had to have been moved so that you could get a guy that you preferred to play with. Rose is on record as saying he wanted Anthony and talked to him about how great it would be playing in Chicago. He also was present when Melo was on his recruiting visit.

When you recruit a player, you don't know who the GM is going to trade. That makes no sense. At best, you could guess but you wouldn't know. You don't even have to move players if the guy is signing as an FA anyway.

Is this TKF poster only referenced when his line of thinking is in agreement.

I've been reading opinion of his not received too highly

This looks like convenient cherry picking

Agreed Rose is not going to mgmt telling them who they need to trade in order to sign players

He spoke to Melo 20min while having to be asked to change his Berto workout to the United Center for the recruit.

Part of the reason Bulls mgmt were at odds with him and his camp

Rose was comfortable with Boozer getting Amnestied so Gasol could get paid.

Not to be confused Rose is a very sneaky egomaniac it's not even funny

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Rose didn't call/recruit Melo but personally talk to Gasol so that means what?

Rose didn't recruit Lebron James when he was up a few years ago so what did that mean?

Noah, the team leader and heart and soul of the team, did recruit Melo so what does that mean?

Also, when you continually only have the mMLE it's pretty hard to say your are building. It's pretty hard to Build when there is an anchor weighing down your FA moves. Then on top of that you make a terrible trade by giving up a 1st. I saw the trade for Bargs coming but I didn't see the 1st rd draft pick.

rose didn't want melo because it would be a terrible fit-- despite what noah said... and noah s hands down one of my favorite players, a top ten player.

rose didn't want lebron because he would have to change his game too much at too early an age-- plus rose got shut down by lebron that one series.

rose wants to play with gasol because that's a great fit.

Haha what? Is that a fact now?

yes, at key junctures lebron hounded him into bad games. but overall rose was very bad. you can look at numbers for that series yourself:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/

note his FG% and his TS%.

the one game he sort of played like a point guard he still managed to hoist 23 shots, converting 7 of them.

ha ha ha... what indeed

No DK....I'm saying it's fact that Rose feels that way? He doesn't want Lebron on his team cause he has to change his game (does that not sound terrible to you?) and because Lebron shut him down?

have a look at what f500one said. looks like i'm not the only one to see rose this way.

I would love to hear your answer to the question about Rose not wanting LeBron on the bulls because he would have to change his game.

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Rose didn't call/recruit Melo but personally talk to Gasol so that means what?

Rose didn't recruit Lebron James when he was up a few years ago so what did that mean?

Noah, the team leader and heart and soul of the team, did recruit Melo so what does that mean?

Also, when you continually only have the mMLE it's pretty hard to say your are building. It's pretty hard to Build when there is an anchor weighing down your FA moves. Then on top of that you make a terrible trade by giving up a 1st. I saw the trade for Bargs coming but I didn't see the 1st rd draft pick.

rose didn't want melo because it would be a terrible fit-- despite what noah said... and noah s hands down one of my favorite players, a top ten player.

rose didn't want lebron because he would have to change his game too much at too early an age-- plus rose got shut down by lebron that one series.

rose wants to play with gasol because that's a great fit.

Haha what? Is that a fact now?

yes, at key junctures lebron hounded him into bad games. but overall rose was very bad. you can look at numbers for that series yourself:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/

note his FG% and his TS%.

the one game he sort of played like a point guard he still managed to hoist 23 shots, converting 7 of them.

ha ha ha... what indeed

No DK....I'm saying it's fact that Rose feels that way? He doesn't want Lebron on his team cause he has to change his game (does that not sound terrible to you?) and because Lebron shut him down?

have a look at what f500one said. looks like i'm not the only one to see rose this way.

He hides behind the cloak of humility and pulls fast ones on the masses.

This guy is a different breed of douchery

His brother Reggie is an epic tool of a trouble maker.

Rose has his minions of flunkies pumping his head to the highest levels of elevation

He says he doesn't recruit because it's mgmt job yet ask for free agent phone numbers

So he can play a friendly card game of go fish with them

When the Bulls were considering trading for Dwight Howard

He said it would be like a dream to play with him, but it's not up to him

When the Bulls were thinking of possibly trading Noah for Gasol a few yrs back

He said understands the talent Gasol brings but he's riding with Noah, he's his guy

They have enough to win with what they have////// yapper yapper yapper

So he doesn't recruit although he does, it's conditional

He doesn't feel it's his job although he can openly say players don't need to be traded

knickscity wrote:This situation is a different situation for Phil, Phil has never had to build a team from the ground, the main components were already there in both of his nba ship situations, already winning games, but hadnt made the championship step.

This team is coming from being in the lottery with quite a few question marks from a player's standpoint based on the words Phil has spoken.

It's just not cut and dry "dont you believe in phil?" When I look at Phil's past I see him having at his disposal two top players in the game on both his ship teams...one being alpha and the other being super superb secondary player who was also a top player.

Jordan and Shaq were the alpha's....Pippen was the secondary as was Kobe.....and when Phil didnt have his alphas the road was harder, much harder.

When I see the Knicks I see a secondary in Melo who is neither on the level of Kobe or Pippen, but no alpha, so Phil is automatically disadvantaged, but in Phil's defense his triangle evolved from one team to the next, so I'd expect the same here.

But the notion that it should be expected improvement, well the team stunk last year, an improvement wont take much to accomplish, but marked improvement will be needed to attract free agents especially....basically players incoming have to like what they see and the possibilities of what themselves can be in it.

Now while I really doubt certain players will excel in this system, i will say those players will recieve a chance to do so.

Even Karl malone admitted it took a long adjustment, and Gary Payton admitted he coulndt figure it out.

This is a new animal for Phil and while I think he's up to the challenge along with Fisher, the territory is new and neither has been at this place.

i hope for success, but wouldnt bet my house on it.

Lakers were a 37win team the year before they hired Phil in 05, and won the championship 4yrs later. They won 45 games the following yr and got better each yr until winning the championship.

Not saying I expect the same exact results but Phil helped build the 09-10 championship team from lottery team. He wasn't always handed great teams which seem to be the perception.

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

defense is going to be the main issue, that is virtually guaranteed. this season it is going to cost them five or more games which puts them around 36 wins if their offense is merely average.

that means the offense has to be good for at least 10 to 15 games, or top ten in the league. is that realistic?

LEGENDARY PROPHECY

Are you taking victory laps 10 games into a season?

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

defense is going to be the main issue, that is virtually guaranteed. this season it is going to cost them five or more games which puts them around 36 wins if their offense is merely average.

that means the offense has to be good for at least 10 to 15 games, or top ten in the league. is that realistic?

LEGENDARY PROPHECY

Are you taking victory laps 10 games into a season?

Before Calderon has even played 1 game, too