knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I have no doubt Phil and Fisher will give him every chance to play well, but only Bargs can make the ball go in the hoop. Only bargs can stay healthy as well.

I have no issue with your optimism, i just dont share it. Bargs has history that Phil hasnt had to deal with. he doesnt make no so good player better, what he does is elevate guys who already are good, which Bargs is not.

Thats Phil's "history".

As far as contract year things go, there's quite a few on the team that fall in that category, so that isnt a for sure thing that bargs in particular will automatically play better.

The system still will be adhered to, bargs if he is even still on the team by then will need to blend.

I can't believe I have to keep reading such Bullish. You think that Phil can't put Bargs in a position to succeed? It's already clear that Woody did not put Bargs in a position to succeed and it made things worse than they had to be. If you as a coach fail to play your players to their strengths but instead put them in positions that highlight their weaknesses then you're ensuring that they'll fail. It's always important that a player does his best but you also have to create the environment for players to succeed. That is what Phil has done. He doesn't just "elevate guys who already are good". That's a diss to Phil's coaching if you think that's all he does.

All the statistics show that Bargs is an excellent Pick n Pop player and if you get him in that kind of action more often he'll be playing to his strengths. The more he touches the ball the better he plays.

With about six minutes left in the fourth quarter of their game Wednesday against the Denver Nuggets, the Toronto Raptors found themselves trailing by 1 point. Coming off a possession that started with an offensive rebound, the Raptors pulled the basketball out and ran a pick-and-roll between Jose Calderon and Andrea Bargnani. It worked so well that they went back to it, then they went back to it again.

In total, the Raptors used Bargnani as the roll man in the pick-and-roll three times during a two-minute stretch, scoring seven points off of it (good for a PPP of 2.33), and turning a 1-point deficit into a four-point lead. What’s really interesting about these pick-and-rolls is that they not only got into them three different ways, but Bargnani scored out of them three different ways, showing off his versatility when put in pick-and-rolls.

PPP in Pick and Pop 2012
Andrea Bargnani 
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909 

Interesting name shows up in this list. Jason Smith is there. This is part of the rationale behind Phil adding him. It's also why I think Phil is confident that he can get something out of Bargs. The skills they have are useful in the Triangle.

Are you able to read? I plainly said they will get him that chance to succeed.

But they arent magicians, players have to be good already. bargs has certain aspects that can be used, but his negatives totally eclipse that.

1	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	  286:41    +0.6
2	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith	  195:17    -0.4
3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
4	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  141:24    +13.9
5	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert  133:53    +14.6
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8

It's simple. If his coach had stayed away from lineups that clearly didn't work and played the ones that were more successful, then Bargs would be more productive. GOOD coaches know the importance of this. No one is saying Bargs is a great player. That's not the point. The trick is to put all of your players in the best position to excel and thus as a team maximize the talent you have. You want to stay away from things that will expose a players weaknesses. That's what I would expect Fish and Phil to do. You watch film and analyze the statistics in order to have a clear idea of what works and what doesn't. A players strengths and weaknesses. A teams strengths and weaknesses. Phil is doing that and trying to change the roster the best he can, but STAT and Bargs are here and I don't know that he'll be able to move them.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I have no doubt Phil and Fisher will give him every chance to play well, but only Bargs can make the ball go in the hoop. Only bargs can stay healthy as well.

I have no issue with your optimism, i just dont share it. Bargs has history that Phil hasnt had to deal with. he doesnt make no so good player better, what he does is elevate guys who already are good, which Bargs is not.

Thats Phil's "history".

As far as contract year things go, there's quite a few on the team that fall in that category, so that isnt a for sure thing that bargs in particular will automatically play better.

The system still will be adhered to, bargs if he is even still on the team by then will need to blend.

I can't believe I have to keep reading such Bullish. You think that Phil can't put Bargs in a position to succeed? It's already clear that Woody did not put Bargs in a position to succeed and it made things worse than they had to be. If you as a coach fail to play your players to their strengths but instead put them in positions that highlight their weaknesses then you're ensuring that they'll fail. It's always important that a player does his best but you also have to create the environment for players to succeed. That is what Phil has done. He doesn't just "elevate guys who already are good". That's a diss to Phil's coaching if you think that's all he does.

All the statistics show that Bargs is an excellent Pick n Pop player and if you get him in that kind of action more often he'll be playing to his strengths. The more he touches the ball the better he plays.

With about six minutes left in the fourth quarter of their game Wednesday against the Denver Nuggets, the Toronto Raptors found themselves trailing by 1 point. Coming off a possession that started with an offensive rebound, the Raptors pulled the basketball out and ran a pick-and-roll between Jose Calderon and Andrea Bargnani. It worked so well that they went back to it, then they went back to it again.

In total, the Raptors used Bargnani as the roll man in the pick-and-roll three times during a two-minute stretch, scoring seven points off of it (good for a PPP of 2.33), and turning a 1-point deficit into a four-point lead. What’s really interesting about these pick-and-rolls is that they not only got into them three different ways, but Bargnani scored out of them three different ways, showing off his versatility when put in pick-and-rolls.

PPP in Pick and Pop 2012
Andrea Bargnani 
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909 

Interesting name shows up in this list. Jason Smith is there. This is part of the rationale behind Phil adding him. It's also why I think Phil is confident that he can get something out of Bargs. The skills they have are useful in the Triangle.

Are you able to read? I plainly said they will get him that chance to succeed.

But they arent magicians, players have to be good already. bargs has certain aspects that can be used, but his negatives totally eclipse that.

I can read, but you seem to think it's near impossible for Phil and Fish to get Bargs to be productive. It's already proven that you can get good minutes out of Bargs. Two of our best lineups from last year were with Bargs at the Center spot.

1	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	  286:41    +0.6
2	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith	  195:17    -0.4
3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
4	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  141:24    +13.9
5	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert  133:53    +14.6
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8

It's simple. If his coach had stayed away from lineups that clearly didn't work and played the ones that were more successful, then Bargs would be more productive. GOOD coaches know the importance of this. No one is saying Bargs is a great player. That's not the point. The trick is to put all of your players in the best position to excel and thus as a team maximize the talent you have. You want to stay away from things that will expose a players weaknesses. That's what I would expect Fish and Phil to do. You watch film and analyze the statistics in order to have a clear idea of what works and what doesn't. A players strengths and weaknesses. A teams strengths and weaknesses. Phil is doing that and trying to change the roster the best he can, but STAT and Bargs are here and I don't know that he'll be able to move them.

And out of all the players in those lineups, Bargs had the worst +/- which leads to rationals that those lineups did well DESPITE him, not because of him.

There's plenty of actual data to show the team played better without Bargs.

He individually may play better at center, but it isnt even a given he will, as the team has guys who can play that position who actually ARE centers.

I agree though he is here...hopefully he wont be.

Like I've stated i respect your optimism, just dont share it....almost a remix of last year.

You praised Bargs to no end only to watch him fail you.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I have no doubt Phil and Fisher will give him every chance to play well, but only Bargs can make the ball go in the hoop. Only bargs can stay healthy as well.

I have no issue with your optimism, i just dont share it. Bargs has history that Phil hasnt had to deal with. he doesnt make no so good player better, what he does is elevate guys who already are good, which Bargs is not.

Thats Phil's "history".

As far as contract year things go, there's quite a few on the team that fall in that category, so that isnt a for sure thing that bargs in particular will automatically play better.

The system still will be adhered to, bargs if he is even still on the team by then will need to blend.

I can't believe I have to keep reading such Bullish. You think that Phil can't put Bargs in a position to succeed? It's already clear that Woody did not put Bargs in a position to succeed and it made things worse than they had to be. If you as a coach fail to play your players to their strengths but instead put them in positions that highlight their weaknesses then you're ensuring that they'll fail. It's always important that a player does his best but you also have to create the environment for players to succeed. That is what Phil has done. He doesn't just "elevate guys who already are good". That's a diss to Phil's coaching if you think that's all he does.

All the statistics show that Bargs is an excellent Pick n Pop player and if you get him in that kind of action more often he'll be playing to his strengths. The more he touches the ball the better he plays.

With about six minutes left in the fourth quarter of their game Wednesday against the Denver Nuggets, the Toronto Raptors found themselves trailing by 1 point. Coming off a possession that started with an offensive rebound, the Raptors pulled the basketball out and ran a pick-and-roll between Jose Calderon and Andrea Bargnani. It worked so well that they went back to it, then they went back to it again.

In total, the Raptors used Bargnani as the roll man in the pick-and-roll three times during a two-minute stretch, scoring seven points off of it (good for a PPP of 2.33), and turning a 1-point deficit into a four-point lead. What’s really interesting about these pick-and-rolls is that they not only got into them three different ways, but Bargnani scored out of them three different ways, showing off his versatility when put in pick-and-rolls.

PPP in Pick and Pop 2012
Andrea Bargnani 
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909 

Interesting name shows up in this list. Jason Smith is there. This is part of the rationale behind Phil adding him. It's also why I think Phil is confident that he can get something out of Bargs. The skills they have are useful in the Triangle.

Are you able to read? I plainly said they will get him that chance to succeed.

But they arent magicians, players have to be good already. bargs has certain aspects that can be used, but his negatives totally eclipse that.

I can read, but you seem to think it's near impossible for Phil and Fish to get Bargs to be productive. It's already proven that you can get good minutes out of Bargs. Two of our best lineups from last year were with Bargs at the Center spot.

1	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	  286:41    +0.6
2	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith	  195:17    -0.4
3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
4	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  141:24    +13.9
5	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert  133:53    +14.6
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8

It's simple. If his coach had stayed away from lineups that clearly didn't work and played the ones that were more successful, then Bargs would be more productive. GOOD coaches know the importance of this. No one is saying Bargs is a great player. That's not the point. The trick is to put all of your players in the best position to excel and thus as a team maximize the talent you have. You want to stay away from things that will expose a players weaknesses. That's what I would expect Fish and Phil to do. You watch film and analyze the statistics in order to have a clear idea of what works and what doesn't. A players strengths and weaknesses. A teams strengths and weaknesses. Phil is doing that and trying to change the roster the best he can, but STAT and Bargs are here and I don't know that he'll be able to move them.

I stated plain as day they will give him a chance to succeed, but actual quality that equals WINS is not simple.

And out of all the players in those lineups, Bargs had the worst +/- which leads to rationals that those lineups did well DESPITE him, not because of him.

There's plenty of actual data to show the team played better without Bargs.

He individually may play better at center, but it isnt even a given he will, as the team has guys who can play that position who actually ARE centers.

I agree though he is here...hopefully he wont be.

Like I've stated i respect your optimism, just dont share it....almost a remix of last year.

You praised Bargs to no end only to watch him fail you.

I actually asked for Bargs to be used differently than how he was often used. Woody had no clue how he wanted to use the players on his roster and he admitted this coming out of camp. In addition I did not anticipate Felton, JR and Shump shooting below 40% as they did. A lot of the problems of the players not being prepared and knowing the plays. There was so much else going on that it sucked the life from Bargs game. He actually had a very good November but the guards were so putrid and Woodson so inept that it eventually effected his game. If you think it doesn't matter if your PG isn't doing his job and your coach has no answers then I can't help you to understand what happened last year. It wasn't just that Bargs was on the floor.

It's gonna be interesting to see how things go this year. Hopefully he has a bounce back year cuz we need everyone to play well this year.

He will see the bench alot this coming season, I'm sure of it, mainly because he has no skills the triangle can use other than a mid range shot.

Even one of the greatest shooters Phil ever had....never started a single game for him, and that player understood the triangle very well.

Phil especially hates the pnr so might as well cancel that option out, as he hates 'stand around" ball.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fish have made it clear, they will be changing the culture and they do plan on winning games. they wont have time to coddle bargnani....he either gets it or he'll be coming off the bench.

He will see the bench alot this coming season, I'm sure of it, mainly because he has no skills the triangle can use other than a mid range shot.

Even one of the greatest shooters Phil ever had....never started a single game for him, and that player understood the triangle very well.

Phil especially hates the pnr so might as well cancel that option out, as he hates 'stand around" ball.

I think you're wrong on this. Bargs has skills. I can't imagine what would make you say he lacks skills. He can pump fake his man out of his shoes and get by him. He is solid in the PnP/R game. He's not a great overall player but he has some skills. Dude has scored 20 ppg in this league. It's been a rough last few years which has made it seem like he can't play, but that doesn't mean he can't turn it around with some help from his Coach and PG. He's gonna be back with Jose and i'm sure he'll pump his spirits back up.

Also the PnR is part of the Triangle. It's just not the entire offense. You get into PnR as an option in the Second Option Pinch Post. Bargs is likely to be the big in a Pinch Post working a 2 man with the PG. PnR in the Triangle isn't stand around ball. It's all part of the flow of the offense. Jose and Bargs in the Pinch Post will be a good pairing. You can't leave either guy in this 2 man game.

Here's the summer league team running Pinch Post 2 man game. It's not high level cuz it's the kids but you get the idea.

But anyway, Bargs strength is mid range, Bargs pump fake is no different than Melo's jab steps.....make a quick decision already as you're already open...which is exactly what the traingle offense does. it promotes an ope shot.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fish have made it clear, they will be changing the culture and they do plan on winning games. they wont have time to coddle bargnani....he either gets it or he'll be coming off the bench.

He will see the bench alot this coming season, I'm sure of it, mainly because he has no skills the triangle can use other than a mid range shot.

Even one of the greatest shooters Phil ever had....never started a single game for him, and that player understood the triangle very well.

Phil especially hates the pnr so might as well cancel that option out, as he hates 'stand around" ball.

I think you're wrong on this. Bargs has skills. I can't imagine what would make you say he lacks skills. He can pump fake his man out of his shoes and get by him. He is solid in the PnP/R game. He's not a great overall player but he has some skills. Dude has scored 20 ppg in this league. It's been a rough last few years which has made it seem like he can't play, but that doesn't mean he can't turn it around with some help from his Coach and PG. He's gonna be back with Jose and i'm sure he'll pump his spirits back up.

Also the PnR is part of the Triangle. It's just not the entire offense. You get into PnR as an option in the Second Option Pinch Post. Bargs is likely to be the big in a Pinch Post working a 2 man with the PG. PnR in the Triangle isn't stand around ball. It's all part of the flow of the offense. Jose and Bargs in the Pinch Post will be a good pairing. You can't leave either guy in this 2 man game.

Here's the summer league team running Pinch Post 2 man game. It's not high level cuz it's the kids but you get the idea.

The video doesnt really excite me, it's summer league and the defense wasnt tight, and that same team adjusted and murked the kids in the second outing to the point they stopped running the triangle.

But anyway, Bargs strength is mid range, Bargs pump fake is no different than Melo's jab steps.....make a quick decision already as you're already open...which is exactly what the traingle offense does. it promotes an ope shot.

You don't have to be a dick about the video. It's not meant to be an example of what Melo or Bargs would look like in the offense. It's to show you how the team gets into the 2 man game which can lead to a PnP/R game and on this team with Jose/Bargs/Melo/STAT etc those 2 man games in the flow of this offense will lead to good scoring opportunities. You can choose to piss on the idea that these looks in the Triangle will help our players get good offense, but IMO you're being shortsighted if you do that. I don't really know what your point is anymore. Is it that you don't think the triangle is any good cuz our kids lost one game? Is your point that Melo and Bargs won't be able to adjust to the open looks in the Triangle for some reason? You think neither player will recognize when they're wide open in this offense and just refuse to take those open shots. WTF is your point?

Firstly, I didnt bring up the kids...you did. Secondly, I've always been consitent in saying Bargs is not a good player.

Thirdly ask Melo himself why he constantly told Bargs to stop pump faking and just take the open shot....he literally pump fakes and no one is around.