We really haven't won anything in a very long time and there are much better programs out there with a long track record of winning (Los Angeles, Boston, San Antonio, etc).

I still think NY is great but I don't think the rest of the country shares that view when it comes to basketball.

Nalod wrote:Lebron is asking for Max money and can get it. Maybe he is tired of not being the highest paid? Maybe he thinks DWade should take a pay cut if he wants to hang on Lebrons coat tails now?

The problem is if Melo takes a cut he might see his path to winning better with another team.

If so, fans need to be prepared to see him leave regardless of sign and trade potential. At one level I want him here or value in return but if not, it marks a stark turn of events depicting a shift in policy for the franchise.

The end of nonsensical Starphuching! Fans might have to be patient.

Nalod wrote:
The media talking heads have "guestimated" that Melo stays in NY because we can offer the 5th year and over 30 million more than anyone else. Much has been written.

The singular focus is:

1. We can pay Melo more, thus Melo stays?
2. We will ask for a discount and his commitment to win which enables us greater flexibility to sign others and improve the team.
3. Melo can pair with Lebron either in Miami, here in a year, or elsewhere.
4. Take a discount to sign with Lakers, Rockets or Chicago as suggested by various media.

Thus we converse "is melo worth the max"?

Whats new in this post?

Clarity. Phil has to sell Melo on Mecca, worlds most famous arena, His kids school, and building a winning culture with a commited owner. Phil can't use money to lure Melo, otherwise we have not moved forward. If can max melo and still have a vision that competes, thats remains to be seen.

I trust Phil did not come here to max out Melo and starphuch for 5 years.

Do you?

The Tour de Melo begins!

Despite what tfk may have you believe there is no bag of stupidity that comes with Melo. It is not Melo's fault that management has made exeptionally bad moves since he's been here. This is why you have a guy with 11 rings running the show. Because we need Phil to manage high caliber talent, NOT cater to it.

I simply cant wrap my head around $5 or $7mm a year less off the cap being the difference between the Knicks building a sustainable winner and title contender vs. being strapped to an aging star that has us mired in mediocrity, yet this seems to be the calling card for so many who seem to think the only reasonable course is for Melo to be paid like a young guy coming off his rookie contract.

Starphuch comes from the fans even worse. The management sells it and this board buys it. Why not just pay Melo the max? Which seems to be the current market based on the fact that the Mavs, Bulls, Lakers and Rockets will all be offering him... why not? Because we need that cap space to sign stars (not sure who, but we know they all want to be Knicks) and Durant in 2016. Hmmmm... Last time we couldnt get Joe Johnson in here but yes... Im sure Durant, Aldridge, Irving, Kevin Love and Rondo are all counting the days until they are Knicks.

Now the other side of the coin is pay your best player and move forward. Move forward with the young guys you just added and the ability to add players after next year with our own #1, (JR opts in for about $7mm) and the Knicks still have over $20mm to bring in a max player and thats even if they totally cave and give MElo the super max (not my first choice).

Its incredibly clear to me that this is not a cater-to culture and that is because Phil has used every outlet available to establish that. Isnt that the real beef? That bringing Melo back means this is a cater-to starphuck team? I just dont see that anymore. I just see him as a really nice piece, and a key piece. Phil is playing a game, because he knows he needs Melo back, but he also knows he needs him back on his terms, whether that means less money or simply buying in that remains to be seen...

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lebron is asking for Max money and can get it. Maybe he is tired of not being the highest paid? Maybe he thinks DWade should take a pay cut if he wants to hang on Lebrons coat tails now?

The problem is if Melo takes a cut he might see his path to winning better with another team.

If so, fans need to be prepared to see him leave regardless of sign and trade potential. At one level I want him here or value in return but if not, it marks a stark turn of events depicting a shift in policy for the franchise.

The end of nonsensical Starphuching! Fans might have to be patient.

Personally i dont think we will be "cavedwellers" for long if melo leaves. I mean yes he is a geat scorer BUT we also know his playoff record hasnt been good in his career either. I think Phil has done a good job so ar and with extra money/picks he will turn the Knicks around quicker IMO

If you think top tier talent is coming here to play for a team that just won 25 games and has THjr and JR chucking 30 3's a night I believe you are mistaken. No Melo = a lengthy rebuild. To assume otherwise is grossly ignoring history. Just my 2c

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
The media talking heads have "guestimated" that Melo stays in NY because we can offer the 5th year and over 30 million more than anyone else. Much has been written.

The singular focus is:

1. We can pay Melo more, thus Melo stays?
2. We will ask for a discount and his commitment to win which enables us greater flexibility to sign others and improve the team.
3. Melo can pair with Lebron either in Miami, here in a year, or elsewhere.
4. Take a discount to sign with Lakers, Rockets or Chicago as suggested by various media.

Thus we converse "is melo worth the max"?

Whats new in this post?

Clarity. Phil has to sell Melo on Mecca, worlds most famous arena, His kids school, and building a winning culture with a commited owner. Phil can't use money to lure Melo, otherwise we have not moved forward. If can max melo and still have a vision that competes, thats remains to be seen.

I trust Phil did not come here to max out Melo and starphuch for 5 years.

Do you?

The Tour de Melo begins!

why must the two go hand in hand? Max or not?

Despite what tfk may have you believe there is no bag of stupidity that comes with Melo. It is not Melo's fault that management has made exeptionally bad moves since he's been here. This is why you have a guy with 11 rings running the show. Because we need Phil to manage high caliber talent, NOT cater to it.

I simply cant wrap my head around $5 or $7mm a year less off the cap being the difference between the Knicks building a sustainable winner and title contender vs. being strapped to an aging star that has us mired in mediocrity, yet this seems to be the calling card for so many who seem to think the only reasonable course is for Melo to be paid like a young guy coming off his rookie contract.

Starphuch comes from the fans even worse. The management sells it and this board buys it. Why not just pay Melo the max? Which seems to be the current market based on the fact that the Mavs, Bulls, Lakers and Rockets will all be offering him... why not? Because we need that cap space to sign stars (not sure who, but we know they all want to be Knicks) and Durant in 2016. Hmmmm... Last time we couldnt get Joe Johnson in here but yes... Im sure Durant, Aldridge, Irving, Kevin Love and Rondo are all counting the days until they are Knicks.

Now the other side of the coin is pay your best player and move forward. Move forward with the young guys you just added and the ability to add players after next year with our own #1, (JR opts in for about $7mm) and the Knicks still have over $20mm to bring in a max player and thats even if they totally cave and give MElo the super max (not my first choice).

Its incredibly clear to me that this is not a cater-to culture and that is because Phil has used every outlet available to establish that. Isnt that the real beef? That bringing Melo back means this is a cater-to starphuck team? I just dont see that anymore. I just see him as a really nice piece, and a key piece. Phil is playing a game, because he knows he needs Melo back, but he also knows he needs him back on his terms, whether that means less money or simply buying in that remains to be seen...

We are actually more in agreement. Color me more neutral on this.

If Phil wants to pay him max and thinks he can build a winner with him, then its not a starphuck. I think this is what your saying?

I think he prefers to want melo back, but not at max money because if Melo is serious about winning, that extra cap can mean the difference in getting a player. 4-5-6-7mil a year can buy some talent.

I think Phil is basically asking, and sort of what Melo wants is some imput on rosters. My take is if your asking to take a pay cut and have "skin in the game" then you should run by the player who gave up some money. Its like when you save money at home and the wife runs out and buys something stupid with it. Its disrespetful. I get Melo if this is his thinking. With Dolan, you don't do that. If he trusts Phil, then perhaps this is workable.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
The media talking heads have "guestimated" that Melo stays in NY because we can offer the 5th year and over 30 million more than anyone else. Much has been written.

The singular focus is:

1. We can pay Melo more, thus Melo stays?
2. We will ask for a discount and his commitment to win which enables us greater flexibility to sign others and improve the team.
3. Melo can pair with Lebron either in Miami, here in a year, or elsewhere.
4. Take a discount to sign with Lakers, Rockets or Chicago as suggested by various media.

Thus we converse "is melo worth the max"?

Whats new in this post?

Clarity. Phil has to sell Melo on Mecca, worlds most famous arena, His kids school, and building a winning culture with a commited owner. Phil can't use money to lure Melo, otherwise we have not moved forward. If can max melo and still have a vision that competes, thats remains to be seen.

I trust Phil did not come here to max out Melo and starphuch for 5 years.

Do you?

The Tour de Melo begins!

why must the two go hand in hand? Max or not?

Despite what tfk may have you believe there is no bag of stupidity that comes with Melo. It is not Melo's fault that management has made exeptionally bad moves since he's been here. This is why you have a guy with 11 rings running the show. Because we need Phil to manage high caliber talent, NOT cater to it.

I simply cant wrap my head around $5 or $7mm a year less off the cap being the difference between the Knicks building a sustainable winner and title contender vs. being strapped to an aging star that has us mired in mediocrity, yet this seems to be the calling card for so many who seem to think the only reasonable course is for Melo to be paid like a young guy coming off his rookie contract.

Starphuch comes from the fans even worse. The management sells it and this board buys it. Why not just pay Melo the max? Which seems to be the current market based on the fact that the Mavs, Bulls, Lakers and Rockets will all be offering him... why not? Because we need that cap space to sign stars (not sure who, but we know they all want to be Knicks) and Durant in 2016. Hmmmm... Last time we couldnt get Joe Johnson in here but yes... Im sure Durant, Aldridge, Irving, Kevin Love and Rondo are all counting the days until they are Knicks.

Now the other side of the coin is pay your best player and move forward. Move forward with the young guys you just added and the ability to add players after next year with our own #1, (JR opts in for about $7mm) and the Knicks still have over $20mm to bring in a max player and thats even if they totally cave and give MElo the super max (not my first choice).

Its incredibly clear to me that this is not a cater-to culture and that is because Phil has used every outlet available to establish that. Isnt that the real beef? That bringing Melo back means this is a cater-to starphuck team? I just dont see that anymore. I just see him as a really nice piece, and a key piece. Phil is playing a game, because he knows he needs Melo back, but he also knows he needs him back on his terms, whether that means less money or simply buying in that remains to be seen...

We are actually more in agreement. Color me more neutral on this.

If Phil wants to pay him max and thinks he can build a winner with him, then its not a starphuck. I think this is what your saying?

I think he prefers to want melo back, but not at max money because if Melo is serious about winning, that extra cap can mean the difference in getting a player. 4-5-6-7mil a year can buy some talent.

I think Phil is basically asking, and sort of what Melo wants is some imput on rosters. My take is if your asking to take a pay cut and have "skin in the game" then you should run by the player who gave up some money. Its like when you save money at home and the wife runs out and buys something stupid with it. Its disrespetful. I get Melo if this is his thinking. With Dolan, you don't do that. If he trusts Phil, then perhaps this is workable.

Paying Melo market value isnt a starphuck, its simply keeping your own talent and assets at this point. If Phil really thinks starting clean is better OK, but Im pretty damn sure thats not the case.

What will really flame people up is the bold above and you MUST look at that. Melo will have multiple max offers available. If your asking him to take less whats does he get back? How do you quantify that? Does he get input? That seems pretty fair to me. However as a GM I would probably prefer to just pay the guy and tell him go be a good soldier and let me do the building. He was certainly that last year despite all the BS and terrible play from his supporting cast. But this is why Phil is here... to manage the talent and personalities... lets see what direction he takes.

My guess is 5years $100mm at $20mm per year. Maybe even a no trade clause. It will be interesting regardless. Remember Phil and Melo "have connected"

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:
The media talking heads have "guestimated" that Melo stays in NY because we can offer the 5th year and over 30 million more than anyone else. Much has been written.

The singular focus is:

1. We can pay Melo more, thus Melo stays?
2. We will ask for a discount and his commitment to win which enables us greater flexibility to sign others and improve the team.
3. Melo can pair with Lebron either in Miami, here in a year, or elsewhere.
4. Take a discount to sign with Lakers, Rockets or Chicago as suggested by various media.

Thus we converse "is melo worth the max"?

Whats new in this post?

Clarity. Phil has to sell Melo on Mecca, worlds most famous arena, His kids school, and building a winning culture with a commited owner. Phil can't use money to lure Melo, otherwise we have not moved forward. If can max melo and still have a vision that competes, thats remains to be seen.

I trust Phil did not come here to max out Melo and starphuch for 5 years.

Do you?

The Tour de Melo begins!

why must the two go hand in hand? Max or not?

Despite what tfk may have you believe there is no bag of stupidity that comes with Melo. It is not Melo's fault that management has made exeptionally bad moves since he's been here. This is why you have a guy with 11 rings running the show. Because we need Phil to manage high caliber talent, NOT cater to it.

I simply cant wrap my head around $5 or $7mm a year less off the cap being the difference between the Knicks building a sustainable winner and title contender vs. being strapped to an aging star that has us mired in mediocrity, yet this seems to be the calling card for so many who seem to think the only reasonable course is for Melo to be paid like a young guy coming off his rookie contract.

Starphuch comes from the fans even worse. The management sells it and this board buys it. Why not just pay Melo the max? Which seems to be the current market based on the fact that the Mavs, Bulls, Lakers and Rockets will all be offering him... why not? Because we need that cap space to sign stars (not sure who, but we know they all want to be Knicks) and Durant in 2016. Hmmmm... Last time we couldnt get Joe Johnson in here but yes... Im sure Durant, Aldridge, Irving, Kevin Love and Rondo are all counting the days until they are Knicks.

Now the other side of the coin is pay your best player and move forward. Move forward with the young guys you just added and the ability to add players after next year with our own #1, (JR opts in for about $7mm) and the Knicks still have over $20mm to bring in a max player and thats even if they totally cave and give MElo the super max (not my first choice).

Its incredibly clear to me that this is not a cater-to culture and that is because Phil has used every outlet available to establish that. Isnt that the real beef? That bringing Melo back means this is a cater-to starphuck team? I just dont see that anymore. I just see him as a really nice piece, and a key piece. Phil is playing a game, because he knows he needs Melo back, but he also knows he needs him back on his terms, whether that means less money or simply buying in that remains to be seen...

Its not teh end of the world if we lose melo. This year would have been rough with or without melo but at least we ave our draft pick. I would like to have him back because of his scoring BUT im sorry giving him a max deal is insane. I trust Phil and i think he has done a reat job getting the knicks a bit younger and is preparing well n case melo leaves

insane how? The super max would be the same money the Spurs gave Duncan at 30 years old. Keep the talent and keep getting better. Its that simple. Melo isnt keeping us from getting anything but a potentially high pick next year. Also remember Calderon and Bargs are buddies. Amare, Bargs and Shump are in contract years. There is a good chance those guys under Fisher gut their way to a .500 record rendering your pick right in the middle of mediocre land.

This is the NBA. Losing a player of Melo's caliber for nothing would be a disaster. Look at the Jazz, Cavs, Hornets other teams who have lost top tier guys. Its a long rebuild.

the regular season is junior varsity and the playoffs is the varsity.

melo is a junior varsity achiever whose game isn't good enough to win against the varsity.

that's what his record shows.

the end

Is this the part of the thread where I chime in about "Maybe its the team around him"?
Then we chronicle the Denver years, the effect of Iverson vs. Billups, Karl vs MDA...........and around and around we go?

I'll say this, the only "HE" that can have the effect you speak of is Lebron in this generation. I think Durant is no the MVP not even close.

Its not just "Melos" record, the last I saw there are other players on the team.

Its my opinion Melo is not an MVP. But, he is here, we paid full retail for him so the Zen like way to think is what do we do at this moment and is best for the team. If he is bound to repeat the past verbetum then its a pretty silly game I think. Change the cast of players, you might change the outcome?

One thing we all agree on is Mooby Worship is silly!

Lower the Melo expectation bar and put him in a system.

If he is the best player on the JR varsity, they won't beat the varsity in a 7 game series. Lebron might not either!