Nalod wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fish, I can't believe you got sucked into the debate to that level.

You need not defend Melo as his numbers speak for him. Regarding if his numbers add or detract form thin total is subjective with so many variables you can argue it all day long and really not conclude without defending or detracting Iverson, Billups, Karl, Dan Issel, KMart, and etc etc etc!!!

MOve away from the Golden Mooby and just enjoy the games. Melo has his detractors and no logical statistical or subjective position is going to change a few posters views.

Save yourself!

what numbers are you going to cite to support carmelo anthony? his rock bottom playoff winning percentage? his mediocre FG% and TS% which go down in the playoffs? his awful usage to assist rate ratio which goes up in the playoffs? the 10-15 games he misses a year on average? his invisibility in game 1 against the pacers last year where we lost home court? nothing subjective about these numbers or facts-- they are directly related to his actual value to a winning cause, and by "winning" i am not talking about regular season records and round 1 appearances. you wanna talk david lee-type uncontested bitch rebounds this season?

What numbers? What numbers? Really!!! Really?????

Look in the stands, count the seats! About full! Revenue? Up! Viewership? Ad Revenue?

All very good!

Perception is the reality! If you hate melo, hate him. If you love him, thats a personal choice! Kids love melo, Mothers love melo, Grandmothers love melo! Fish loves melo! He has gone the way of the golden Mooby and derives the only pleasure watching this team! A top 5 scorer who plays on a pretty bad team but when he gets hot can make the crowd roar.

You want to cheer for a winning organization? So does everyone here. this is all we got. Nobody here has any influence to what phil will do, or if melo leaves. Melo has his fans. All the math formulas one can present all points to the same thing: He is not Durant or Lebron.

Papabear Says

LOL I agree he is no LeBron or Durant but if ask woman who is the best looking who do you think they say. Lebron??Nooo Durant ?? Noo , Melo yes He got the ladies. I also heard through the grapevine he say she say Melo took one of the haters girl friend and this hater vowed to hate Melo til the end. I wonder who that hater is or am I just joking who is he?

Of all the New York Knicks' 19 losses, their 123-94 defeat at the hands of the Oklahoma City Thunder on Christmas Day might have been the least dramatic. The Knicks suffer defeat on another buzzer-beater or foul on a buzzer-beater. They didn't blow another two-for-one or forget to use a critical timeout.

Instead, perhaps the best team in the NBA simply picked the Knicks apart. Considering the fact that New York was missing its best player, Carmelo Anthony, the outcome was never in doubt, even before the tip.

But the Knicks, being the Knicks, couldn't simply depart Madison Square Garden without a whiff of controversy. So point guard Beno Udrih sat down in front of reporters after the game and vented all of his frustrations, particularly toward Knicks head coach Mike Woodson.

Per NorthJersey.com's Steve Popper:

To be fair, Udrih didn't only complain about Woodson. He also sounded off on the Christmas uniforms:

So perhaps he was just in a bad mood following the 29-point loss. Opposing point guard Russell Westbrook torched the Knicks for a triple-double: 14 points, 13 rebounds and 10 assists.

But Udrih's comments were the harshest indictment of the embattled Knicks coach yet to be made public. Is this merely a case of a single aggrieved player venting his frustration, or is it the first real indication that Woodson has lost the Knicks locker room?

The Wrong Scapegoat

According to the Wall Street Journal's Chris Herring, many of Udrih's problems with Woodson stem from a December 16 loss to the Washington Wizards:

In that game, the Knicks blew a chance at a victory in the final minute. With the game tied at 100, the Knicks botched a chance to go two-for-one, but the Wizards bailed out the Knicks when they fouled Udrih. Udrih made only one of the two free throws, giving the Knicks a 101-100 lead. On the other end, Udrih failed to stop a drive from Washington's Bradley Beal, who drove in for an easy layup to give Washington the lead.

With six seconds left and three timeouts, the Knicks simply walked the ball up the court and heaved the ball at the rim, seemingly without any sense of purpose. Clearly, the loss was an indictment of Woodson's inability to manage the clock, his defense and his timeouts.

Instead, Udrih believes the team has made him the scapegoat for that late-game failure. Now, that is only the word of one player, but if true, it is patently unfair. Starting point guard Raymond Felton sat out of that game with an injury, and backup Pablo Prigioni broke his foot early in the second quarter.

Down to his third-string guard, Woodson rode Udrih relentlessly—the 31-year-old backup played the final 21:49 of the game without a break. The Knicks had another point guard on the active roster in rookie Toure' Murry, but he did not see a single minute of action in the game. The fact that the Knicks ended the game with three timeouts speaks to the fact that Woodson wasn't the least bit concerned with resting his overworked point guard in the game.

This kind of tension between player and coach speaks to a larger problem with the 2013-14 Knicks. Udrih has not been particularly good this season, but he isn't the reason the Knicks are 9-19. He probably isn't even among the top 10 reasons the Knicks are 9-19.

Udrih signed with New York expecting to be the third-string point guard. In fact, much of his rationale for signing was to play off the ball in the two-point-guard lineups the Knicks employed in 2012-13.

Per Herring:

And he's right; Woodson has all but turned away from the two-point-guard backcourts in favor of his beloved "big" lineups. Udrih has played just 11 minutes this season with either Prigioni or Felton, per NBA.com (subscription required). Udrih came to New York based on a promise that has gone unfulfilled, and now he feels he has become the target of his coach's scorn.

If Woodson wants to pinpoint a more pressing concern, perhaps he should take a look at his first-string point guard. Felton has been injured most of this year—missing 11 of the team's 28 games—and has been practically useless when he has been on the court.

Check out the stats for Felton and Udrih coming into Wednesday:

Raymond Felton vs. Beno Udrih
G MP FG% 3P% AST% Offensive Win Shares WS/48
Felton 17 545 39.2 29.2 26.2 0.1 .021
Udrih 20 352 45.5 46.4 25.5 0.3 .065
basketball-reference.com

But that doesn't seem to be how things play out in Mike Woodson's coaching world.

The One Player Woodson Cannot Cross

It appears Woodson is becoming adept at passing blame onto the right people. In November, Marc Berman of the New York Post reported that guard Iman Shumpert was the target of scorn both for Woodson and the Knicks' front office. If your job is in jeopardy, it makes sense to direct your rage at someone already disliked by your bosses.

Now, it seems some of that wrath is being directed at Udrih, a player who matters little (if at all) in the Knicks' long-term plans.

But there is one player whom Woodson cannot afford to lose: star forward Carmelo Anthony.

While there aren't any overt signs of friction between Melo and Woodson, there have been indications the two don't always agree.

After the Knicks nearly blew a lead to an undermanned Chicago Bulls team on December 12, Anthony and Woodson clearly disagreed about how to run their late-game offense. Woodson was content simply to continually dump the ball off to Anthony:@HerringWSJ
Follow
Woodson, on the late-game shots: "I'll take a shot from Melo all day long [in that situation]." Says some of those iso plays were designed.
11:05 PM - 11 Dec 2013

While Melo was in favor of more ball movement:

Melo, on the late-game isolations: "Guys are kinda waiting around for me to do something. ... We've gotta get away from that. And we will.

The Knicks are one of the few teams whose star scorer believes he should have the ball less than his coach wants.

Anthony was also a bit terse after the Washington loss when discussing blame for the timeout fiasco.

But he hasn't come out publicly and called for Woodson's firing. Given the pull Anthony has within the New York organization, especially with his impending free agency, Woodson wouldn't last 15 minutes if Melo wanted him gone.

Until that time, however, Woodson may continue to blame the likes of Udrih—and the Knicks will continue to lose.

knicks1248 wrote:Here's a Interesting article

Of all the New York Knicks' 19 losses, their 123-94 defeat at the hands of the Oklahoma City Thunder on Christmas Day might have been the least dramatic. The Knicks suffer defeat on another buzzer-beater or foul on a buzzer-beater. They didn't blow another two-for-one or forget to use a critical timeout.

Instead, perhaps the best team in the NBA simply picked the Knicks apart. Considering the fact that New York was missing its best player, Carmelo Anthony, the outcome was never in doubt, even before the tip.

But the Knicks, being the Knicks, couldn't simply depart Madison Square Garden without a whiff of controversy. So point guard Beno Udrih sat down in front of reporters after the game and vented all of his frustrations, particularly toward Knicks head coach Mike Woodson.

Per NorthJersey.com's Steve Popper:

To be fair, Udrih didn't only complain about Woodson. He also sounded off on the Christmas uniforms:

So perhaps he was just in a bad mood following the 29-point loss. Opposing point guard Russell Westbrook torched the Knicks for a triple-double: 14 points, 13 rebounds and 10 assists.

But Udrih's comments were the harshest indictment of the embattled Knicks coach yet to be made public. Is this merely a case of a single aggrieved player venting his frustration, or is it the first real indication that Woodson has lost the Knicks locker room?

The Wrong Scapegoat

According to the Wall Street Journal's Chris Herring, many of Udrih's problems with Woodson stem from a December 16 loss to the Washington Wizards:

In that game, the Knicks blew a chance at a victory in the final minute. With the game tied at 100, the Knicks botched a chance to go two-for-one, but the Wizards bailed out the Knicks when they fouled Udrih. Udrih made only one of the two free throws, giving the Knicks a 101-100 lead. On the other end, Udrih failed to stop a drive from Washington's Bradley Beal, who drove in for an easy layup to give Washington the lead.

With six seconds left and three timeouts, the Knicks simply walked the ball up the court and heaved the ball at the rim, seemingly without any sense of purpose. Clearly, the loss was an indictment of Woodson's inability to manage the clock, his defense and his timeouts.

Instead, Udrih believes the team has made him the scapegoat for that late-game failure. Now, that is only the word of one player, but if true, it is patently unfair. Starting point guard Raymond Felton sat out of that game with an injury, and backup Pablo Prigioni broke his foot early in the second quarter.

Down to his third-string guard, Woodson rode Udrih relentlessly—the 31-year-old backup played the final 21:49 of the game without a break. The Knicks had another point guard on the active roster in rookie Toure' Murry, but he did not see a single minute of action in the game. The fact that the Knicks ended the game with three timeouts speaks to the fact that Woodson wasn't the least bit concerned with resting his overworked point guard in the game.

This kind of tension between player and coach speaks to a larger problem with the 2013-14 Knicks. Udrih has not been particularly good this season, but he isn't the reason the Knicks are 9-19. He probably isn't even among the top 10 reasons the Knicks are 9-19.

Udrih signed with New York expecting to be the third-string point guard. In fact, much of his rationale for signing was to play off the ball in the two-point-guard lineups the Knicks employed in 2012-13.

Per Herring:

And he's right; Woodson has all but turned away from the two-point-guard backcourts in favor of his beloved "big" lineups. Udrih has played just 11 minutes this season with either Prigioni or Felton, per NBA.com (subscription required). Udrih came to New York based on a promise that has gone unfulfilled, and now he feels he has become the target of his coach's scorn.

If Woodson wants to pinpoint a more pressing concern, perhaps he should take a look at his first-string point guard. Felton has been injured most of this year—missing 11 of the team's 28 games—and has been practically useless when he has been on the court.

Check out the stats for Felton and Udrih coming into Wednesday:

Raymond Felton vs. Beno Udrih
G MP FG% 3P% AST% Offensive Win Shares WS/48
Felton 17 545 39.2 29.2 26.2 0.1 .021
Udrih 20 352 45.5 46.4 25.5 0.3 .065
basketball-reference.com

But that doesn't seem to be how things play out in Mike Woodson's coaching world.

The One Player Woodson Cannot Cross

It appears Woodson is becoming adept at passing blame onto the right people. In November, Marc Berman of the New York Post reported that guard Iman Shumpert was the target of scorn both for Woodson and the Knicks' front office. If your job is in jeopardy, it makes sense to direct your rage at someone already disliked by your bosses.

Now, it seems some of that wrath is being directed at Udrih, a player who matters little (if at all) in the Knicks' long-term plans.

But there is one player whom Woodson cannot afford to lose: star forward Carmelo Anthony.

While there aren't any overt signs of friction between Melo and Woodson, there have been indications the two don't always agree.

After the Knicks nearly blew a lead to an undermanned Chicago Bulls team on December 12, Anthony and Woodson clearly disagreed about how to run their late-game offense. Woodson was content simply to continually dump the ball off to Anthony:@HerringWSJ
Follow
Woodson, on the late-game shots: "I'll take a shot from Melo all day long [in that situation]." Says some of those iso plays were designed.
11:05 PM - 11 Dec 2013

While Melo was in favor of more ball movement:

Melo, on the late-game isolations: "Guys are kinda waiting around for me to do something. ... We've gotta get away from that. And we will.

The Knicks are one of the few teams whose star scorer believes he should have the ball less than his coach wants.

Anthony was also a bit terse after the Washington loss when discussing blame for the timeout fiasco.

But he hasn't come out publicly and called for Woodson's firing. Given the pull Anthony has within the New York organization, especially with his impending free agency, Woodson wouldn't last 15 minutes if Melo wanted him gone.

Until that time, however, Woodson may continue to blame the likes of Udrih—and the Knicks will continue to lose.

can you post benos numbers with memphis

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:27 & 8 on a 30win team doesn't really mean much

first losing season in his career... its a one off. Folks complained he was an average rebounder. That improved. Folks say his FG%s stink, that improved.

The team stinks... kinda been over that ad nauseum. This guy played through pain and was one of the most productive players in decades.

You can pound advanced stats all day, but there is one that cant be argued:
http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK.HTM

When Melo is on the floor the Knicks are +
When Melo sits the Knicks are not only negative, they are terrible

Go look at the #s.
http://www.82games.com/1314/13NYK11.HTM
Melo doest defend? Yet the Knicks defense is better when he's on the floor. By alot
Melo chucks? Knicks FG% is better when he's on the floor.
Look at Melo's opponents...
Melo outrebounds his opponents whether he's at SF or PF
Melo out passes (assists) his opponents whether he's at SF or PF
Melo draws more fouls and commits fewer than his opponents whether he's at SF or PF

Guns... he had a great season, and his value to the team shows up in the #s. The reason Woodson played him so much, wrong as it may have been was because when Melo was off the floor the game would get away. Hard to blame a guy fighting for his job for that. Im not defending Woodson's lousy coaching. Im just saying there is some easy to see cause and effect here.

fishmike you continue to interpret that stat incorrectly.

for that to be the case carmelo would have to be the only player on the team with a +

He isn't... so tell me, when he sits, and someone like tyson chandler is also at a + is on the floor.. what happens fishmike?

actually its you that doesnt get it. So I will explain it further, and the arguement ends here with you being wrong.

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:yikes he's got shoulders broken down like a 50-year old man. that's damaged goods on an nba level. hooray for bullyball it has really paid off, right melo? time to get rid of him is now, while there are still takers.

thank goodness for this report now it should make it easier for jackson to play hardball-- 12-14 million and if you must, hold your nose and pay him a bunch more next year and then far less when it comes time to pick up a free agent. ronron has been insisting on this, i believe-- or let him go.

that way, either way, knicks win. nobody should take issue with this approach but i am sure some intrepid but perhaps foolhardy soul will try....

second year in a row with a bum shoulder... i wonder if there was a scoring title to be had, would he still be playing these last couple of games..

Anyway, forget a discount.. I say let him opt out period.... clean the slate next year.. although amare will be tough to move....

for me the prospect of anthony playing in the triangle changes things a bit. frankly i don't want jackson to take the chance that carmelo will be able to function as a wing or a midpost cog in that offense, but i am willing to go along with his agenda if that is his agenda. anything short of using the triangle in msg i want melo to be given the heave-ho. let him leave and feel like a winner and have to play defense in chicago or have to share the ball with rose. new yorkers are going to shyte on whatever legacy he thinks he is going to leave here. knicks and their fanbase are in for a world of hurt if they overpay for carmelo anthony a second time.

I just want a wing who can actually defend, especially a SF... not sure what the triangle will do for carmelo, but i am past the point of wanting to find out... rather just move on..

Don't worry. At least we have your boy Amare to defend for us next year.

Man! Do I love that guy's heart.

amare will have trouble defending his shadow.. but I will give it up, the guy has showed a lot of heart and determination, i respect that.. too bad his knees betrayed him.... that is one of the saddest developments over the past couple of years, yet somewhat expected I guess..

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:yikes he's got shoulders broken down like a 50-year old man. that's damaged goods on an nba level. hooray for bullyball it has really paid off, right melo? time to get rid of him is now, while there are still takers.

thank goodness for this report now it should make it easier for jackson to play hardball-- 12-14 million and if you must, hold your nose and pay him a bunch more next year and then far less when it comes time to pick up a free agent. ronron has been insisting on this, i believe-- or let him go.

that way, either way, knicks win. nobody should take issue with this approach but i am sure some intrepid but perhaps foolhardy soul will try....

second year in a row with a bum shoulder... i wonder if there was a scoring title to be had, would he still be playing these last couple of games..

Anyway, forget a discount.. I say let him opt out period.... clean the slate next year.. although amare will be tough to move....

for me the prospect of anthony playing in the triangle changes things a bit. frankly i don't want jackson to take the chance that carmelo will be able to function as a wing or a midpost cog in that offense, but i am willing to go along with his agenda if that is his agenda. anything short of using the triangle in msg i want melo to be given the heave-ho. let him leave and feel like a winner and have to play defense in chicago or have to share the ball with rose. new yorkers are going to shyte on whatever legacy he thinks he is going to leave here. knicks and their fanbase are in for a world of hurt if they overpay for carmelo anthony a second time.

I just want a wing who can actually defend, especially a SF... not sure what the triangle will do for carmelo, but i am past the point of wanting to find out... rather just move on..

Don't worry. At least we have your boy Amare to defend for us next year.

Man! Do I love that guy's heart.

amare will have trouble defending his shadow.. but I will give it up, the guy has showed a lot of heart and determination, i respect that.. too bad his knees betrayed him.... that is one of the saddest developments over the past couple of years, yet somewhat expected I guess..

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:yikes he's got shoulders broken down like a 50-year old man. that's damaged goods on an nba level. hooray for bullyball it has really paid off, right melo? time to get rid of him is now, while there are still takers.

thank goodness for this report now it should make it easier for jackson to play hardball-- 12-14 million and if you must, hold your nose and pay him a bunch more next year and then far less when it comes time to pick up a free agent. ronron has been insisting on this, i believe-- or let him go.

that way, either way, knicks win. nobody should take issue with this approach but i am sure some intrepid but perhaps foolhardy soul will try....

second year in a row with a bum shoulder... i wonder if there was a scoring title to be had, would he still be playing these last couple of games..

Anyway, forget a discount.. I say let him opt out period.... clean the slate next year.. although amare will be tough to move....

for me the prospect of anthony playing in the triangle changes things a bit. frankly i don't want jackson to take the chance that carmelo will be able to function as a wing or a midpost cog in that offense, but i am willing to go along with his agenda if that is his agenda. anything short of using the triangle in msg i want melo to be given the heave-ho. let him leave and feel like a winner and have to play defense in chicago or have to share the ball with rose. new yorkers are going to shyte on whatever legacy he thinks he is going to leave here. knicks and their fanbase are in for a world of hurt if they overpay for carmelo anthony a second time.

I just want a wing who can actually defend, especially a SF... not sure what the triangle will do for carmelo, but i am past the point of wanting to find out... rather just move on..

Don't worry. At least we have your boy Amare to defend for us next year.

Man! Do I love that guy's heart.

amare will have trouble defending his shadow.. but I will give it up, the guy has showed a lot of heart and determination, i respect that.. too bad his knees betrayed him.... that is one of the saddest developments over the past couple of years, yet somewhat expected I guess..

I love how you get behind Amare. Breaks his back doing fancy dunks before a playoff series and it takes him out of it. Next year he punches glass in the playoffs, rips open his hand and takes him out of it again. He literally did everything stupid he could to sabotage the Knicks but this is your guy. Meanwhile its Melo the playoff loser. At least you dont flip flop. Im sure you will still be touting Gallo's greatness as well in two years when he's coaching the little league Italian team from a wheelchair. Good stuff.

THIS is a ridiculous post.. I will leave it at that... rofl... wow

fishmike wrote:

toad wrote:

fishmike wrote:

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 160.1 1.09 1.08 +23 10 8 55.5
2 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 146.2 1.04 0.97 +23 6 7 46.1
3 Felton-Prigioni-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler 133.9 1.12 0.97 +36 9 5 64.2
4 Felton-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler 127.0 1.16 1.02 +34 7 6 53.8
5 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 126.1 1.03 0.94 +31 7 4 63.6
6 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 90.9 1.02 1.26 -41 1 7 12.5
7 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 90.0 1.18 1.16 -2 6 10 37.5
8 Felton-Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 73.4 1.24 1.09 +14 4 3 57.1
9 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Martin-Bargnani 66.6 1.10 1.11 -1 4 3 57.1
10 Felton-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 46.3 1.22 1.18 +7 5 6 45.4
11 Felton-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 45.5 1.00 1.19 -8 10 9 52.6
12 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Chandler 44.5 1.09 1.11 +4 5 8 38.4
13 Prigioni-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 43.0 0.95 1.41 -24 3 5 37.5
14 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Anthony-Stoudemire 42.9 1.19 1.31 -9 7 8 46.6
15 Murry-Hardaway-Smith-Martin-Stoudemire 42.5 0.86 1.11 -23 2 5 28.5
16 Prigioni-Shumpert-Smith-Anthony-Bargnani 38.7 1.03 1.09 -4 4 3 57.1
17 Udrih-Hardaway-Smith-Bargnani-Chandler 37.5 1.03 1.37 -28 0 6 0.0
18 Prigioni-Hardaway-Smith-Stoudemire-Tyler 34.8 1.08 1.25 -12 3 3 50.0
19 Udrih-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Chandler 34.5 0.95 1.11 -10 1 3 25.0
20 Felton-Shumpert-Anthony-Bargnani-Stoudemire 34.5 1.12 1.02 +7 4 3 57.1

Since I dont know how to use the code function this is a bit sloppy but feel free to check the URL.

This shows the 20 most played linups by the Knicks this year. Of the 20 line ups listed 9 of them are +, the other 11 are -

Go look at EVERY SINGLE + line up and tell who's name is in every one?

GUESS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Carmelo Anthony.

God that must hurt.

Yup.. there was not a single lineup this year without Melo on the floor that produced a positive result.

Now you can resume talking about me being a flip flopper, playing losing hands and tossing feces. Subjects you seem more comfortable with than Mooby :)

You do realize that out of the 20, Melo's on every lineup except maybe 3, including some big minus lineups? Felton's on every one of those + lineups as well with the exception of one that is a whopping +4. So, apparently, Felton was our second best player. Ray must be way underpaid.

The team sucked. It was built and coached around giving Melo the ball every time, all the time. I'm not surprised he had good numbers, but the team sucked. He's a gifted scorer, but you don't want to pay this guy max dollars and build around him as he gets older and starts to have injuries. He's not that guy. At under $20M/yr with a vet PG to keep him in check, maybe, but it would be ridiculous to throw a 5-yr $129M contract at this guy at his age, and think you're building a championship team in that time with what little assets we currently have.

Sign and trade him if possible, build chemistry with a real core within a system and add impact FAs further down the line.

I do realize it... as you said the TEAM was very bad this year. Melo's performance was consistent with prior years. All this shows is that any success had was with Melo on the floor and there is plenty of evidence that shows a large drop in play when he's off the floor on both sides of the ball.

You mention Felton but its a great point. When did the Knicks look like a real team this year? When the guard play was good. Felton had a terrible year but he had his good every 3rd or 4th game and when that happened the Knicks usually won.

Felton played in 31 wins and 34 losses.
In the 34 losses he shot 35%
In the 31 wins he shot 45%

A huge disparity. But all you had to do was use your eyes.. when some combo of Prigs, Felton, JR, Shump and THjr were playing well the Knicks looked just fine and could beat good teams. Then when Shump and THjr where having their zero scoring games, Prigs looked old, Ray was shooting 35% and JR was stoned the Knicks looked terrible.

We have brought up Kevin Garnett as a comparison... the guy had MVP caliber seasons and his team didnt even make the playoffs either. It takes more than one great player. If the team stinks it stinks. One guy doesnt get you 50 wins unless that one guy is Shaq and he's 25 years old.

The only thing that those +/- numbers indicate is that Melo is a good player playing a whole lot of minutes this season on a bad team. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Whether or not he's someone you want to lock up something close to 40% of your salary cap when he's in his 30s is pretty debatable. I took a quick look at minutes played leaders and found the next guy who played on a lottery team. That guy, way further down the list, is Gordon Hayward. And funny enough, he's also on every + lineup for his team. He's a good young player, but do I want to pay him anything close to 26M/year and build around him? Not really.

This team stunk. As many minutes as Melo played, they produced 37 wins playing to Melo's strengths and ego. They all, including Melo, played stupid basketball. I don't have a problem saying he's the best player on this sucky team, but there is an element here insisting that he's somehow not part of the problem that produced this horrendous season, and that is ridiculous. At best, this season exposed Melo's need to be kept in check at all times by a PG on the floor who is not going to let him freelance out there whenever he wants; someone who understands a system on both sides of the floor. Personally, with his age, nagging injuries, inconsistency on defense, propensity to play heroball, lack of leadership, and the salary he commands, I don't think he's worth it.

The reason Chicago seems like a good option for him is because they already have a winning formula there, and he fits a specific scoring need. They're not going to make him captain and try to build around him. He's going to be a cog (albeit an important cog) in a wheel that Thibs and the existing core already built. He's going to be held accountable to play defense within a system. He's going to be asked to fit in. That's not going to happen here if you sign him to a 5yr max contract at this point. Unless Phil is going to come down and coach the team, I'd rather part ways with this guy.

As far as Felton, he sucked. Saying that when he plays well, we win is obvious. But it only happened 37 times. That alone should tell you those +/- numbers don't say very much in evaluating a player.

fishmike wrote:^^^ lol indeed. Say hello to DK while your rolling around on the floor.

the way i see it is this: amare comes here as a free agent as part of plan b. we paid him max dollars but did not trade anyone away unless you want to say we traded away david lee. as many have said, as distasteful as the notion is, no big name is coming here for david lee.

walsh made a mistake in bringing in felton to run the offense but it is what it is. i did not like felton's running of the offense. he seemed incapable of orchestrating and could not distribute the ball properly. stat did not do any better at distributing the ball, even though he fancied himself the engine of the offense. but he did the team and himself no favors in barreling into two and sometime three pairs of arms. posters applauded his "beasting" but i saw it as a problem because he too managed to get his while freezing out teammates.

then he wears down with this narrow strategy based on his flaws and the next thing you know he is shunted aside by the arrival of melo. i know it's hard to fathom, but lacerating his hand in frustration and even hurting himself while dunking during warmups is a symptom of his feeling disrespected when the new reality set in.

i have sympathy for stoudemire. i think he got shafted even while being no saint in this farce.