gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

Guns... I agree you. My own point is stupid, which is actually the point. KG was always a great player, yet he failed to make it out of the first round for about a decade straight. Then when he won a ring he was surrounded by two HOF players and one of the league's best young PGs.

So the arguement comes full circle. Garnett.. "see Boston." End of arguement. Melo.. "see..." oh wait. He's never played on a team like that. He had Iverson. They did ok. He had Billups, they made a run to the conference finals. He had JR and Tyson playing well and we made it to round two. When JR and Tyson stunk we got eliminated.

The very very brief times we have seen this roster healthy Melo has looked pretty good no? Was last year a one off?

I just think Knick fans expect too much of one guy, but those same fans dont hold the players they tout to the same standards. KG is just one example.

KG - 7 first round exits. 3x missed playoffs all together. 1 year (out of 12 w/ Minn) did he advance.

And I think KG is a better player than Melo, but how is this different? Melo never missed the playoffs OR had the losing seasons KG had.

Also how old was KG when the Boston run started? 30.... hmmmmmm

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:No one playing since MJ should be compared to MJ. I hated his azz, but he could of won chips with most of the shmoes posting in this dump. He drove teammates to win or get out of the gym and/or out of the league.

KG - Pierce, Jesus Shuttlesworth, Rondo
LeFlop - Miami Mice & Friends
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Bynum (the good one)

Melo - Chauncey Billups, what was left of AI.

Seriously? This is your argument as to why Melo can't win it all?

the argument is that you can't win as a selfish one-way player who trails in hustle stats. how many of those defensive rebounds he gets are contested rebounds, by the way?

right, and how many are offensive boards off his own bad shots, and how many rebounds are actually him bouncing the ball off the backboard before laying it in, and how many are...

The argument, for those of us that can read, was these other players won chips with "help". It wasn't addressing your brilliant insights to the mental state of Carmelo Anthony, and trying to figure out someway to explain away his rebounding. I bet most of those 1.2 steals he gets are actually from the opponent falling down, and those blocks are actually just due to poor shot selection by the opposition, and those paltry 3 or 4 assists are not even worth mentioning because ummmm...he doesn't rank high enough among the whole league, and none of them come in the 4th quarter, and he probably leads the league in looking off wide open teammates under the rim.

gunsnewing wrote:If you want to build a sustainable championship contender you need to start over and draft one of hose stars. I would even take another Patrick Ewing

Your 100% right Guns.

How old was Dirk when he won a title? He was 32.. and it was a year after another one of his famous first round flameouts when his 2nd seeded Mavs got bounced in round one. But we could never compare Dirk (A guy once labeled Irk by Dallas fans for no D" to MElo could we?

Guns if you think the Melo window is closed your not up on your NBA history

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I agree. No one should ever try to compare KG(all time NBA great) to Melo.

Melo needs help but he's not on Jordan, Kobe, KG lebron's level. Get those guys help and they win rings. Melo is not good enough to win it all with unless we get really lucky ith a great GM great coach and a total team effort. If the goal is just making the playoffs then Melo is definitely your guy. I would jump to give a 25-26yr old close to max money. Not 30+year old Melo. Unless he was one those guys level I mentioned

well thats the point.. because KG was nothing but a playoff loser (when he made it in) before his 30th birthday. So tell me again why I cant compare the two?

I explained it already. Maxing out Melo into his 30s and making him the big kahuna again is a mistake. You will never be able to draft and develope that next KG/Lebron because it will always be Melos team. Melo would be a great robin to a batman. Again if the goal is making the playoffs Melo, love etc are your guys. If it's championship ship thenook at the list of champions the past 30yrs. Like I said maybe we get lucky like Dallas and Detroit. I want sustainable contending

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

Why didnt he win earlier? Why wasnt his 'team' play worth a damn in terms of winning playoff games until he got Spree and Sam Cassel? Two proven playoff winners? Or until he got Ray, Rajon and Paul?

Guns... I agree you. My own point is stupid, which is actually the point. KG was always a great player, yet he failed to make it out of the first round for about a decade straight. Then when he won a ring he was surrounded by two HOF players and one of the league's best young PGs.

So the arguement comes full circle. Garnett.. "see Boston." End of arguement. Melo.. "see..." oh wait. He's never played on a team like that. He had Iverson. They did ok. He had Billups, they made a run to the conference finals. He had JR and Tyson playing well and we made it to round two. When JR and Tyson stunk we got eliminated.

The very very brief times we have seen this roster healthy Melo has looked pretty good no? Was last year a one off?

I just think Knick fans expect too much of one guy, but those same fans dont hold the players they tout to the same standards. KG is just one example.

KG - 7 first round exits. 3x missed playoffs all together. 1 year (out of 12 w/ Minn) did he advance.

And I think KG is a better player than Melo, but how is this different? Melo never missed the playoffs OR had the losing seasons KG had.

Also how old was KG when the Boston run started? 30.... hmmmmmm

the losses were not on garnett he always did his job after his rookie season as a 19 year old straight from high school.

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there.
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency.
then really no pg at all in 2002-3
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season.
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton
then another season in the point guard wilderness

then a trade to boston.

garnett's teams did not have as much talent as melo's teams.

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo lacks the same motor as those guys. Bottomline

can't afford to pay this guy more than 13-14 million a year as a knick. if someone has more money to pay for his services then have at it. knicks don't have that luxury-- not for a guy who will be 30 years old in a couple of weeks and 31.5 by november 2015.

Phil will decide that not you.

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:No one playing since MJ should be compared to MJ. I hated his azz, but he could of won chips with most of the shmoes posting in this dump. He drove teammates to win or get out of the gym and/or out of the league.

KG - Pierce, Jesus Shuttlesworth, Rondo
LeFlop - Miami Mice & Friends
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Bynum (the good one)

Melo - Chauncey Billups, what was left of AI.

Seriously? This is your argument as to why Melo can't win it all?

the argument is that you can't win as a selfish one-way player who trails in hustle stats. how many of those defensive rebounds he gets are contested rebounds, by the way?

right, and how many are offensive boards off his own bad shots, and how many rebounds are actually him bouncing the ball off the backboard before laying it in, and how many are...

The argument, for those of us that can read, was these other players won chips with "help". It wasn't addressing your brilliant insights to the mental state of Carmelo Anthony, and trying to figure out someway to explain away his rebounding. I bet most of those 1.2 steals he gets are actually from the opponent falling down, and those blocks are actually just due to poor shot selection by the opposition, and those paltry 3 or 4 assists are not even worth mentioning because ummmm...he doesn't rank high enough among the whole league, and none of them come in the 4th quarter, and he probably leads the league in looking off wide open teammates under the rim.

he isn't worth more than 13-14 million to the knicks. his floor impact in the playoffs is not what it needs to be to warrant more money than that. i don't know why that is so hard to accept for you.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I agree. No one should ever try to compare KG(all time NBA great) to Melo.

Melo needs help but he's not on Jordan, Kobe, KG lebron's level. Get those guys help and they win rings. Melo is not good enough to win it all with unless we get really lucky ith a great GM great coach and a total team effort. If the goal is just making the playoffs then Melo is definitely your guy. I would jump to give a 25-26yr old close to max money. Not 30+year old Melo. Unless he was one those guys level I mentioned

No way I give him a max and he is certainly not on the caliber of those players. So what! What does that have to do with first round exits?

See how this jumps like a ADHD?

you would give him the max rather than losing him for nothing. Thats the really the question. Not some perceived worth.

I let him walk. No way I give him the max.

but I am not the GM, what the hell do I know?