dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We still won the trade all things considered, had some opportunities in the playoffs to make some noise that we might not have had otherwise. A healthy Amare and the whole situation changes and we aren't talking about whether we won or lost the trade. But it didn't work out with this crew, it is what it is.

I'd say both teams won because both teams got what they wanted.

Bonn's point that both teams lost is very interesting thought and I never looked at it like that.

Can't say both teams won or both teams lost at this point. It has not played out in full.

Yes that is 100% true. A lot depends on what happens with Melo, with our cap space in 2015, etc. I believe Denver has lost to this point however because i don't think they have got what they were looking for out of their players they received and that franchise has not grown. But still too early to tell for both teams.

Well we certainly haven't grown either. If we can point to 2015, certainly they can point to how the lottery pick we hand them develops. It's a bit far-fetched though to say that the critical assessment of whether our trade for Melo in the 2010-11 season was worthwhile depends on who we sign in 2015. I'm sure that if we hadn't traded for Melo, we would have had the opportunity to sign valuable free agents between 2011 and 2015 anyway.

We could have grown if our management walsh, grunwald, all of them did not do such a lousy job. If we amnestied Amare (or NEVER SIGNED HIM) and did not sign Tyson, did not sign FELTON, Camby, did not trade for bargs and did not do many things that we did, we could still have build a strong team with Melo even if we gave up too much (which really all comes down to our #1 pick this year - which is huge).

If we kept Gallo and Wilson and resigned them, we would have lost as well since we would have lost players who don't play too much and we would have paid way more than they were worth. The question is, could we have traded them for a better package? Maybe ... too many maybe's.

I still believe it gets decided in the next year or two. If they draft another Noah and Melo is in chicago playing with Noah, boy that would suck swag balls!

when you are hamstrung by the owner it will make you appear to be doing a bad job. if any of those guys had complete autonomy, the autonomy that dolan has apparently finally relented to give to phil jackson, we would be not in this eternal limbo as a team. that's just how bad dolan is.

Could be. I don't care who was the GM and/or why they did it, or if it was Dolans fault. I don't take sides for the sake of being right about my boxer.

The KNICKS screwed up and thats all I care about.

There many GM's or coaches with autonomy that screw up all the time. How can you be sure of any outcome? You trying to say that Walsh is really a good guy and this mess is because Dolan made him do it? Could be, I could care less about Walsh or what the reason was that he made these moves.

Denver had major cap space and basically used that money to trade for and sign Mcgee to a "ridiculous contract". At this point they only moved up 3 spaces in the draft and have to give up there pick to the Magic.

Knicks used Billups to turn into Tyson Chandler which ended up being a waste of money.

Both teams could have made way better decisions after the trade.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We still won the trade all things considered, had some opportunities in the playoffs to make some noise that we might not have had otherwise. A healthy Amare and the whole situation changes and we aren't talking about whether we won or lost the trade. But it didn't work out with this crew, it is what it is.

I'd say both teams won because both teams got what they wanted.

Bonn's point that both teams lost is very interesting thought and I never looked at it like that.

Can't say both teams won or both teams lost at this point. It has not played out in full.

Yes that is 100% true. A lot depends on what happens with Melo, with our cap space in 2015, etc. I believe Denver has lost to this point however because i don't think they have got what they were looking for out of their players they received and that franchise has not grown. But still too early to tell for both teams.

Well we certainly haven't grown either. If we can point to 2015, certainly they can point to how the lottery pick we hand them develops. It's a bit far-fetched though to say that the critical assessment of whether our trade for Melo in the 2010-11 season was worthwhile depends on who we sign in 2015. I'm sure that if we hadn't traded for Melo, we would have had the opportunity to sign valuable free agents between 2011 and 2015 anyway.

We could have grown if our management walsh, grunwald, all of them did not do such a lousy job. If we amnestied Amare (or NEVER SIGNED HIM) and did not sign Tyson, did not sign FELTON, Camby, did not trade for bargs and did not do many things that we did, we could still have build a strong team with Melo even if we gave up too much (which really all comes down to our #1 pick this year - which is huge).

If we kept Gallo and Wilson and resigned them, we would have lost as well since we would have lost players who don't play too much and we would have paid way more than they were worth. The question is, could we have traded them for a better package? Maybe ... too many maybe's.

I still believe it gets decided in the next year or two. If they draft another Noah and Melo is in chicago playing with Noah, boy that would suck swag balls!

when you are hamstrung by the owner it will make you appear to be doing a bad job. if any of those guys had complete autonomy, the autonomy that dolan has apparently finally relented to give to phil jackson, we would be not in this eternal limbo as a team. that's just how bad dolan is.

Could be. I don't care who was the GM and/or why they did it, or if it was Dolans fault. I don't take sides for the sake of being right about my boxer.

The KNICKS screwed up and thats all I care about.

There many GM's or coaches with autonomy that screw up all the time. How can you be sure of any outcome? You trying to say that Walsh is really a good guy and this mess is because Dolan made him do it? Could be, I could care less about Walsh or what the reason was that he made these moves.

no i am saying that dolan is likely the worst owner in the nba and likely all of pro sports. that has to mean something when talking about the gms who he employed. can't be glossed over like you just did.

walsh was allowed to be the demolition man for the knicks for two years with the expectation that he's be permitted to build a team in concert with d'antoni. d'antoni agreed to coach through those same two years with the expectation that walsh would be allowed to acquire players top suit d'antoni's style.

walsh drafted a few decent players, and a couple of mistakes. for instance i don't know how lawson wasn't picked up unless both walsh and d'antoni did not see him as capable of orchestrating.

he wasn't allowed to continue working in the direction he wanted and was shoved out the door, with d'antoni inevitably not far behind.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We still won the trade all things considered, had some opportunities in the playoffs to make some noise that we might not have had otherwise. A healthy Amare and the whole situation changes and we aren't talking about whether we won or lost the trade. But it didn't work out with this crew, it is what it is.

I'd say both teams won because both teams got what they wanted.

Bonn's point that both teams lost is very interesting thought and I never looked at it like that.

Can't say both teams won or both teams lost at this point. It has not played out in full.

Yes that is 100% true. A lot depends on what happens with Melo, with our cap space in 2015, etc. I believe Denver has lost to this point however because i don't think they have got what they were looking for out of their players they received and that franchise has not grown. But still too early to tell for both teams.

Well we certainly haven't grown either. If we can point to 2015, certainly they can point to how the lottery pick we hand them develops. It's a bit far-fetched though to say that the critical assessment of whether our trade for Melo in the 2010-11 season was worthwhile depends on who we sign in 2015. I'm sure that if we hadn't traded for Melo, we would have had the opportunity to sign valuable free agents between 2011 and 2015 anyway.

We could have grown if our management walsh, grunwald, all of them did not do such a lousy job. If we amnestied Amare (or NEVER SIGNED HIM) and did not sign Tyson, did not sign FELTON, Camby, did not trade for bargs and did not do many things that we did, we could still have build a strong team with Melo even if we gave up too much (which really all comes down to our #1 pick this year - which is huge).

If we kept Gallo and Wilson and resigned them, we would have lost as well since we would have lost players who don't play too much and we would have paid way more than they were worth. The question is, could we have traded them for a better package? Maybe ... too many maybe's.

I still believe it gets decided in the next year or two. If they draft another Noah and Melo is in chicago playing with Noah, boy that would suck swag balls!

when you are hamstrung by the owner it will make you appear to be doing a bad job. if any of those guys had complete autonomy, the autonomy that dolan has apparently finally relented to give to phil jackson, we would be not in this eternal limbo as a team. that's just how bad dolan is.

Could be. I don't care who was the GM and/or why they did it, or if it was Dolans fault. I don't take sides for the sake of being right about my boxer.

The KNICKS screwed up and thats all I care about.

There many GM's or coaches with autonomy that screw up all the time. How can you be sure of any outcome? You trying to say that Walsh is really a good guy and this mess is because Dolan made him do it? Could be, I could care less about Walsh or what the reason was that he made these moves.

no i am saying that dolan is likely the worst owner in the nba and likely all of pro sports. that has to mean something when talking about the gms who he employed. can't be glossed over like you just did.

walsh was allowed to be the demolition man for the knicks for two years with the expectation that he's be permitted to build a team in concert with d'antoni. d'antoni agreed to coach through those same two years with the expectation that walsh would be allowed to acquire players top suit d'antoni's style.

walsh drafted a few decent players, and a couple of mistakes. for instance i don't know how lawson wasn't picked up unless both walsh and d'antoni did not see him as capable of orchestrating.

he wasn't allowed to continue working in the direction he wanted and was shoved out the door, with d'antoni inevitably not far behind.

Walsh signed Amare. Was that for MDA style or not? I assume yes since he played there but they also had their issues. Dolan forced it? He took his GM millions? His choice.

Was that a good start? HELLS NO

Melo? Not for MDA style though he could have done well in it if they had a PG and bought in (LIN? yeah - painful)

Tyson/CB/TD? Was that a good move for MDA? Bigger HELLS NO - do you think that Dolan forced that on Grunny?

Everybody sucked! If Walsh wants to blame Dolan then I wish he would do a Larry Brown.

Ain't nobody out there going to defend Dolan unless they are a loony

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, "wash" usually means there was no winner or loser. It looks more like both teams were losers. Melo's a great player at the right price but a bad one at the wrong price. We paid the wrong price. We paid an even worse price for other players, obviously, and that too is part of the losing.

not sure how denver lost Bonn...

Well it's unclear whether they lost from the Melo trade or just afterwards. It's probably just afterwards but they've gone badly downhill, and that's not all due to Gallo being out. He doesn't make a 20 win difference.

we don't know what difference gallo makes bonn, but they are not only missing him, but Mcgee missed the season and lawson missed a lot of games as well...add to that the west was just tough as hell this year... I don't think they lost at all, they still have all of their assets, our pick, and players coming back healthy next year...

You forgot that Nate robinson and Hickson blew their acls. Without that wave of injuries, the score wouldn't be that apparently close at all.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We still won the trade all things considered, had some opportunities in the playoffs to make some noise that we might not have had otherwise. A healthy Amare and the whole situation changes and we aren't talking about whether we won or lost the trade. But it didn't work out with this crew, it is what it is.

I'd say both teams won because both teams got what they wanted.

Bonn's point that both teams lost is very interesting thought and I never looked at it like that.

Can't say both teams won or both teams lost at this point. It has not played out in full.

Yes that is 100% true. A lot depends on what happens with Melo, with our cap space in 2015, etc. I believe Denver has lost to this point however because i don't think they have got what they were looking for out of their players they received and that franchise has not grown. But still too early to tell for both teams.

Well we certainly haven't grown either. If we can point to 2015, certainly they can point to how the lottery pick we hand them develops. It's a bit far-fetched though to say that the critical assessment of whether our trade for Melo in the 2010-11 season was worthwhile depends on who we sign in 2015. I'm sure that if we hadn't traded for Melo, we would have had the opportunity to sign valuable free agents between 2011 and 2015 anyway.

We could have grown if our management walsh, grunwald, all of them did not do such a lousy job. If we amnestied Amare (or NEVER SIGNED HIM) and did not sign Tyson, did not sign FELTON, Camby, did not trade for bargs and did not do many things that we did, we could still have build a strong team with Melo even if we gave up too much (which really all comes down to our #1 pick this year - which is huge).

If we kept Gallo and Wilson and resigned them, we would have lost as well since we would have lost players who don't play too much and we would have paid way more than they were worth. The question is, could we have traded them for a better package? Maybe ... too many maybe's.

I still believe it gets decided in the next year or two. If they draft another Noah and Melo is in chicago playing with Noah, boy that would suck swag balls!

when you are hamstrung by the owner it will make you appear to be doing a bad job. if any of those guys had complete autonomy, the autonomy that dolan has apparently finally relented to give to phil jackson, we would be not in this eternal limbo as a team. that's just how bad dolan is.

Could be. I don't care who was the GM and/or why they did it, or if it was Dolans fault. I don't take sides for the sake of being right about my boxer.

The KNICKS screwed up and thats all I care about.

There many GM's or coaches with autonomy that screw up all the time. How can you be sure of any outcome? You trying to say that Walsh is really a good guy and this mess is because Dolan made him do it? Could be, I could care less about Walsh or what the reason was that he made these moves.

no i am saying that dolan is likely the worst owner in the nba and likely all of pro sports. that has to mean something when talking about the gms who he employed. can't be glossed over like you just did.

walsh was allowed to be the demolition man for the knicks for two years with the expectation that he's be permitted to build a team in concert with d'antoni. d'antoni agreed to coach through those same two years with the expectation that walsh would be allowed to acquire players top suit d'antoni's style.

walsh drafted a few decent players, and a couple of mistakes. for instance i don't know how lawson wasn't picked up unless both walsh and d'antoni did not see him as capable of orchestrating.

he wasn't allowed to continue working in the direction he wanted and was shoved out the door, with d'antoni inevitably not far behind.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We still won the trade all things considered, had some opportunities in the playoffs to make some noise that we might not have had otherwise. A healthy Amare and the whole situation changes and we aren't talking about whether we won or lost the trade. But it didn't work out with this crew, it is what it is.

I'd say both teams won because both teams got what they wanted.

Bonn's point that both teams lost is very interesting thought and I never looked at it like that.

Can't say both teams won or both teams lost at this point. It has not played out in full.

Yes that is 100% true. A lot depends on what happens with Melo, with our cap space in 2015, etc. I believe Denver has lost to this point however because i don't think they have got what they were looking for out of their players they received and that franchise has not grown. But still too early to tell for both teams.

Well we certainly haven't grown either. If we can point to 2015, certainly they can point to how the lottery pick we hand them develops. It's a bit far-fetched though to say that the critical assessment of whether our trade for Melo in the 2010-11 season was worthwhile depends on who we sign in 2015. I'm sure that if we hadn't traded for Melo, we would have had the opportunity to sign valuable free agents between 2011 and 2015 anyway.

We could have grown if our management walsh, grunwald, all of them did not do such a lousy job. If we amnestied Amare (or NEVER SIGNED HIM) and did not sign Tyson, did not sign FELTON, Camby, did not trade for bargs and did not do many things that we did, we could still have build a strong team with Melo even if we gave up too much (which really all comes down to our #1 pick this year - which is huge).

If we kept Gallo and Wilson and resigned them, we would have lost as well since we would have lost players who don't play too much and we would have paid way more than they were worth. The question is, could we have traded them for a better package? Maybe ... too many maybe's.

I still believe it gets decided in the next year or two. If they draft another Noah and Melo is in chicago playing with Noah, boy that would suck swag balls!

when you are hamstrung by the owner it will make you appear to be doing a bad job. if any of those guys had complete autonomy, the autonomy that dolan has apparently finally relented to give to phil jackson, we would be not in this eternal limbo as a team. that's just how bad dolan is.

Could be. I don't care who was the GM and/or why they did it, or if it was Dolans fault. I don't take sides for the sake of being right about my boxer.

The KNICKS screwed up and thats all I care about.

There many GM's or coaches with autonomy that screw up all the time. How can you be sure of any outcome? You trying to say that Walsh is really a good guy and this mess is because Dolan made him do it? Could be, I could care less about Walsh or what the reason was that he made these moves.

no i am saying that dolan is likely the worst owner in the nba and likely all of pro sports. that has to mean something when talking about the gms who he employed. can't be glossed over like you just did.

walsh was allowed to be the demolition man for the knicks for two years with the expectation that he's be permitted to build a team in concert with d'antoni. d'antoni agreed to coach through those same two years with the expectation that walsh would be allowed to acquire players top suit d'antoni's style.

walsh drafted a few decent players, and a couple of mistakes. for instance i don't know how lawson wasn't picked up unless both walsh and d'antoni did not see him as capable of orchestrating.

he wasn't allowed to continue working in the direction he wanted and was shoved out the door, with d'antoni inevitably not far behind.

Walsh's plan was to try and clear enough cap space to sign two stars. He gave up a lot to do that but failed and compounded his lack of success by signing a guy to a max deal that had an expiration date on his career and an injury history that didn't allow him to have his contract be insured. Melo became Walsh's second star to target when his summer of 2010 didn't work out. If you want to argue about Dolan allowing Moz to be traded that is fine but Walsh's handiwork is all over the Knicks messed up cap and Walsh pursued Melo.

don't use terms that i have used, such as "compounded" and try to make an intelligent argument. it's annoying.

the rest of your post is just more of the same convoluted nonsense an intellectually honest poster would be embarrassed to post.

walsh signed amare as a free agent. no players were given up unless you want to cite david lee but you are the type of hypocritical fan who hates lee but doesn't mind a sign and trade to get amare because amare is a name. go ahead and tell me that is not true. go ahead and tell me you would have preferred that walsh do nothing. http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5359842

walsh had ZERO to do with trading away half the rotation for melo AND signing him to the max. that was ALL dolan. the proof is in the fact that walsh resigned rather than have his work and legacy destroyed in one fell swoop by an idiot owner in cahoots with an idiot player.

walsh was not responsible for compounding anything. dolan set the franchise back 3 years by interfering at just the wrong moment, something he has finally realized, since he has finally admitted he knows nothing about the game. if he had that realization back when he was gargling melo's nuts in vegas in early 2011 we would not be in this awful retread situation for the foreseeable future.

can't wait for all these great moves on draft day you are getting a stiffy about.

knickstorrents wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Record wise its a wash. The proof is in the records.

But both teams got worse. Why not call it a loss rather than a wash for both teams?

Therefore assuming this is true (and the records speak for themselves):

1) If the Knicks don't do the trade, the Knicks would be in better shape.
2) If Denver doesn't do the trade they would be in worse shape since Melo would have left for no assets.

Here we go - after all emotional nonsense plain and simple facts.
Melo is like a luxury car - you only get one after you are doing good and have another car to go to work.
If you get one and you cannot afford it you will end up working just to pay the bill and in debt.
He is very expensive complimentary piece to very specific and well run system which is not yet designed.
If Zen can come up with one and make NY and Melo winners I am all for it.
If he will come to conclusion that this is a feeder in the wind and will let men go I am with him too.

Silverfuel wrote:What a stupid thread

yeah, but it's got to get at least over 10 pages long.

20, if we don't make the playoffs.

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Record wise its a wash. The proof is in the records.

But both teams got worse. Why not call it a loss rather than a wash for both teams?

Therefore assuming this is true (and the records speak for themselves):

1) If the Knicks don't do the trade, the Knicks would be in better shape.
2) If Denver doesn't do the trade they would be in worse shape since Melo would have left for no assets.

Here we go - after all emotional nonsense plain and simple facts.
Melo is like a luxury car - you only get one after you are doing good and have another car to go to work.
If you get one and you cannot afford it you will end up working just to pay the bill and in debt.
He is very expensive complimentary piece to very specific and well run system which is not yet designed.
If Zen can come up with one and make NY and Melo winners I am all for it.
If he will come to conclusion that this is a feeder in the wind and will let men go I am with him too.

He's like a car that's worth $50,000 (still a nice, good car) but you have to pay $125,000 to get it.

You can say that about most high contract players.

What I think that you are missing is that the market determines what a player is worth by supply and demand.

You would not have even signed to the max as a ufa, but how many teams with the cap space would have? At minimum - most of them.

No, the market determines what players are paid, not what they're worth. There's a lot of evidence that the two have little to do with each other.