dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

he is not a two-way player-- makes it tough to win it all when he has never shown an aptitude or desire to expend more energy on defense than offense. it really says a lot about a player. garnett always has given greater energy on defense. all the true greats do, even the ones that get hammered for not being great defenders, like bird and johnson.

And? Your point?

He was still good enough to make the Conf finals and win a game vs. LA. I watched everyone of those game and he was not dogging it defensively. Nice buzz word though.

Please show me some clips where Melo was not giving energy on defense in the playoffs. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT RIGHT? And don't spin this into something else - reg season -> postseason or postseason -> regular season.

There were many not great defenders who have won rings.

MANY VARIABLES.

Remember, I actually believe that CB (one of my favorites) was the best player on that Denver squad.

And, when you have a minute. Please review the history and stats of AI on Denver and let me know your take.

i am not a good person to ask about iverson-- not a fan of his game. not marbury's or francis's either. or jennings. or bynum. or arenas.

That is why I expect/respect more out of you. Because you seem to have a better grasp of of (actual) player impact. Though, you need to do some more research in this space so that you become more informed about the past and not just listen to reinventionists spewing and spinning untruths.

So a little AI history ...

AI came to Denver and probably played his best regular season basketball ever (efficiency wise, though far from superstar lever). And Melo did well too with him ... in the regular season.

Then ... the postseason's. Melo played very well and AI WAS ATROCIOUS BEYOND BELIEF! Check it up ... stats don't lie. His TS was 44 and 50 respectively (awful) and his WS48 in denver (postseason) was a bloody disastrous .032.

So ... they fleeced the sh1t out of Detroit in probably was one of their franchises worst moves ever and CB comes to Denver. CB was great and delivered. Denver was VERY successful with him and Melo playing together. And, please check the postseason stats/efficiency. Not a coincidence.

His first 3 years/postseasons in Denver (Melo) were not good at all. I don't think that is what we are blaming him for?

i don't really care about regular season achievements. i have been consistent in that belief. there are plenty of regular-season heroes whose games do not really translate to playoff success beyond the first round, which is a meaningless round that rewards mediocrity.

in the playoffs a lot of shiny stat players underachieve because they are not complete players who can do all the things that do not show up in a stat sheet... although with the advent of advanced stats that could change. the main issue becomes poise and decision-making. these are aspects of a player's performance that will remain hard to account for.

Shiny buzz talk.

He had a number of playoffs that he actually played very well, especially when he played with billups. He does much better when he is not the main guy initiating the offense.

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

it does? Honestly? What am I missing? I see a team built around big contracts given to Javal McGee, Ty Lawson and Gallo. Throw in Mosgov and Will Chandler. They have an extra pick which will certainly help.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

Gallinari, Ty Lawson, Kenneth Faried and Timofey Mozgov.

Who is the player if you're a Knicks fan that has you excited about the future? Let me guess... Carmelo Anthony? Yea, he may not have you excited for the future for much longer (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/coming-chi-knicks-playoff-bid-fails-melo-inquires-bulls-coach-thibodeau-article-1.1754800). Yea, that news just broke. But, yea I am sure you are still positive the Knicks have a brighter future than the Nuggets.

Its like I cant get through to you. THE NUGGETS MADE A BETTER DEAL, NOT FOR NOW BUT FOR THE FUTURE. Do you finally get it now?

Let's see if he actually leaves. And, if he does, what we can get in a sign and trade.

But if he leaves, that pretty much guarantees that we lost this trade.

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

it does? Honestly? What am I missing? I see a team built around big contracts given to Javal McGee, Ty Lawson and Gallo. Throw in Mosgov and Will Chandler. They have an extra pick which will certainly help.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

Gallinari, Ty Lawson, Kenneth Faried and Timofey Mozgov.

Who is the player if you're a Knicks fan that has you excited about the future? Let me guess... Carmelo Anthony? Yea, he may not have you excited for the future for much longer (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/coming-chi-knicks-playoff-bid-fails-melo-inquires-bulls-coach-thibodeau-article-1.1754800). Yea, that news just broke. But, yea I am sure you are still positive the Knicks have a brighter future than the Nuggets.

Its like I cant get through to you. THE NUGGETS MADE A BETTER DEAL, NOT FOR NOW BUT FOR THE FUTURE. Do you finally get it now?

I have tried appealing to him from all angles.. he doesn't get it.. Denver will get a healthy gallo back next year, plus the knicks lottery pick.. they played in the tough as nails west and still have a better record than the knicks, and this is with no gallo, no mcgee, all year... lawson missed a lot of games, and they still have more wins than us.. they are not only better now, and honestly have won more games than the knicks since the trade, but are set up nicely for the future....

arkrud wrote:With him or without him... same sht. Is he a 0 impact player?

New York 33-45
DEnver 33-44

Same Sh!t? Really? where was this post last year when we won 50+ games and posted the best record in our division? That was different sh!t, no? Gotta love posters who are prisoners of the moment....and post non-objective (the same) sh!t in every thread.

Uptown wrote:

arkrud wrote:With him or without him... same sht. Is he a 0 impact player?

New York 33-45
DEnver 33-44

Same Sh!t? Really? where was this post last year when we won 50+ games and posted the best record in our division? That was different sh!t, no? Gotta love posters who are prisoners of the moment....and post non-objective (the same) sh!t in every thread.

Last year

Knicks 54-28
Knuggs 57-25

Same ****. Weird how the two teams are in synch record wise.

Trade is really even. Denver got our pick this year.
That might tip the balance.

We got a new Team president. That might tip it back.

Who knows. The draft a stud, its a bad trade. Draft a bust, its still even. Melo bolts without compensation, its a bad trade.

Nalod wrote:

Uptown wrote:

arkrud wrote:With him or without him... same sht. Is he a 0 impact player?

New York 33-45
DEnver 33-44

Same Sh!t? Really? where was this post last year when we won 50+ games and posted the best record in our division? That was different sh!t, no? Gotta love posters who are prisoners of the moment....and post non-objective (the same) sh!t in every thread.

Last year

Knicks 54-28
Knuggs 57-25

Same ****. Weird how the two teams are in synch record wise.

Trade is really even. Denver got our pick this year.
That might tip the balance.

We got a new Team president. That might tip it back.

Who knows. The draft a stud, its a bad trade. Draft a bust, its still even. Melo bolts without compensation, its a bad trade.

I don't get that logic? They draft a bust, and it's still even? The lottery pick is supposed to be the golden linchpin to this whole argument.

Golly, do you really think PJax comes here to coach a continually broken Rooster and watch Moz have a good game one or two times per season?

We were sheehit with a broken Statphucque and IR Gallo and not much else, other than Pringles waiting for a PG.

Melo steps in and we get two seasons of relevance and one really good season of hope, despite the haters who define a 6-game second round loss as a sweep.

Denver gets rid of their COTY, their star GM is retooling the division champ and Denver is left with a bunch of broken pieces, a neverending project and a few malcontents. But their future of being out of the playoffs is just as bright as it was 4 years ago. Got it.

Has anyone wondered why if Melo is a zero-sum player, why we are talking about the trade, 4 years later for 11 pages?

Now please proceed with your comments about Indy, Nyets, Nuggets, etc.