dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

Why didnt he win earlier? Why wasnt his 'team' play worth a damn in terms of winning playoff games until he got Spree and Sam Cassel? Two proven playoff winners? Or until he got Ray, Rajon and Paul?

Guns... I agree you. My own point is stupid, which is actually the point. KG was always a great player, yet he failed to make it out of the first round for about a decade straight. Then when he won a ring he was surrounded by two HOF players and one of the league's best young PGs.

So the arguement comes full circle. Garnett.. "see Boston." End of arguement. Melo.. "see..." oh wait. He's never played on a team like that. He had Iverson. They did ok. He had Billups, they made a run to the conference finals. He had JR and Tyson playing well and we made it to round two. When JR and Tyson stunk we got eliminated.

The very very brief times we have seen this roster healthy Melo has looked pretty good no? Was last year a one off?

I just think Knick fans expect too much of one guy, but those same fans dont hold the players they tout to the same standards. KG is just one example.

KG - 7 first round exits. 3x missed playoffs all together. 1 year (out of 12 w/ Minn) did he advance.

And I think KG is a better player than Melo, but how is this different? Melo never missed the playoffs OR had the losing seasons KG had.

Also how old was KG when the Boston run started? 30.... hmmmmmm

the losses were not on garnett he always did his job after his rookie season as a 19 year old straight from high school.

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there.
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency.
then really no pg at all in 2002-3
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season.
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton
then another season in the point guard wilderness

then a trade to boston.

garnett's teams did not have as much talent as melo's teams.

Explain to us please the talent of:
Anyone on Denver other than Billups and Old AI
Ray Felton
Chris Duhon
Landry Fields
Anyone not near or over 40 on the Knicks

What have you got?
2 weeks of Linsanity during the jv portion of the season?
Half a Stat?
FluchickenTyson?

He had one season with an ex-DPOY and a SMOTY, not a starter mind you, but a SIXTH MAN.

Do tell about talent.

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

Why didnt he win earlier? Why wasnt his 'team' play worth a damn in terms of winning playoff games until he got Spree and Sam Cassel? Two proven playoff winners? Or until he got Ray, Rajon and Paul?

Guns... I agree you. My own point is stupid, which is actually the point. KG was always a great player, yet he failed to make it out of the first round for about a decade straight. Then when he won a ring he was surrounded by two HOF players and one of the league's best young PGs.

So the arguement comes full circle. Garnett.. "see Boston." End of arguement. Melo.. "see..." oh wait. He's never played on a team like that. He had Iverson. They did ok. He had Billups, they made a run to the conference finals. He had JR and Tyson playing well and we made it to round two. When JR and Tyson stunk we got eliminated.

The very very brief times we have seen this roster healthy Melo has looked pretty good no? Was last year a one off?

I just think Knick fans expect too much of one guy, but those same fans dont hold the players they tout to the same standards. KG is just one example.

KG - 7 first round exits. 3x missed playoffs all together. 1 year (out of 12 w/ Minn) did he advance.

And I think KG is a better player than Melo, but how is this different? Melo never missed the playoffs OR had the losing seasons KG had.

Also how old was KG when the Boston run started? 30.... hmmmmmm

the losses were not on garnett he always did his job after his rookie season as a 19 year old straight from high school. (so he's not accountable)

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there. (so he failed to make others around him better)
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency. (so we see guys improve when they stop playing with him)
then really no pg at all in 2002-3 (if he had Felton or Prigs he could have won it all!)
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season. (so he drives away good players)
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton (how did he fail with a cast better than Melo's?)
then another season in the point guard wilderness (PGs are important? does that apply to the Knicks?)

then a trade to boston.

garnett's teams did not have as much talent as melo's teams. (you mean because he failed them, failed to elevate their games, failed as a leader, failed as a max player)

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

Why didnt he win earlier? Why wasnt his 'team' play worth a damn in terms of winning playoff games until he got Spree and Sam Cassel? Two proven playoff winners? Or until he got Ray, Rajon and Paul?

Guns... I agree you. My own point is stupid, which is actually the point. KG was always a great player, yet he failed to make it out of the first round for about a decade straight. Then when he won a ring he was surrounded by two HOF players and one of the league's best young PGs.

So the arguement comes full circle. Garnett.. "see Boston." End of arguement. Melo.. "see..." oh wait. He's never played on a team like that. He had Iverson. They did ok. He had Billups, they made a run to the conference finals. He had JR and Tyson playing well and we made it to round two. When JR and Tyson stunk we got eliminated.

The very very brief times we have seen this roster healthy Melo has looked pretty good no? Was last year a one off?

I just think Knick fans expect too much of one guy, but those same fans dont hold the players they tout to the same standards. KG is just one example.

KG - 7 first round exits. 3x missed playoffs all together. 1 year (out of 12 w/ Minn) did he advance.

And I think KG is a better player than Melo, but how is this different? Melo never missed the playoffs OR had the losing seasons KG had.

Also how old was KG when the Boston run started? 30.... hmmmmmm

the losses were not on garnett he always did his job after his rookie season as a 19 year old straight from high school.

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there.
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency.
then really no pg at all in 2002-3
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season.
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton
then another season in the point guard wilderness

then a trade to boston.

garnett's teams did not have as much talent as melo's teams.

In context, this post and your argument is faulty beyond belief. If you only listen to the excuses that you are making for garnett and were not inhibited by actual facts.

"garnett's teams did not have as much talent as melo's teams"

Thats arguable, but who cares! KG should not need as good of a team because he is a first ballot top HOFer not a dumb lazy punk. hhhhmmmmm.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I agree. No one should ever try to compare KG(all time NBA great) to Melo.

Melo needs help but he's not on Jordan, Kobe, KG lebron's level. Get those guys help and they win rings. Melo is not good enough to win it all with unless we get really lucky ith a great GM great coach and a total team effort. If the goal is just making the playoffs then Melo is definitely your guy. I would jump to give a 25-26yr old close to max money. Not 30+year old Melo. Unless he was one those guys level I mentioned

No way I give him a max and he is certainly not on the caliber of those players. So what! What does that have to do with first round exits?

See how this jumps like a ADHD?

you would give him the max rather than losing him for nothing. Thats the really the question. Not some perceived worth.

I let him walk. No way I give him the max.

but I am not the GM, what the hell do I know?

Trading him for assets makes all the sense in the world. Phil would be the ultimate gangsta if he pulls that off. I trust Phil

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If you want to build a sustainable championship contender you need to start over and draft one of hose stars. I would even take another Patrick Ewing

Go look at the draft positions the Bulls had every year after MJ retired and before they drafted Rose. The "go get a franchise player in the draft" notion is just that... a nice notion.

Your 100% right Guns.

How old was Dirk when he won a title? He was 32.. and it was a year after another one of his famous first round flameouts when his 2nd seeded Mavs got bounced in round one. But we could never compare Dirk (A guy once labeled Irk by Dallas fans for no D" to MElo could we?

Guns if you think the Melo window is closed your not up on your NBA history

Right like I said earlier you need a fluky team like the mavs that year where every goes right. Miami s figuring it out. Rick Carlisle great coach and coach Kidd on the floor. Where is Melo and the Knicks finding the next Coach Kidd?

Also Dirk is better than Melo. Far superior offensive numbers

here's the thing. It would be great to say "Im going to follow the Heat" or SPurs or OKC model for success. But realism and history shows us those teams are lucky to be in the position they are in. Skilled? Yes, but lucky? Unquestionable.

What about Dirk's game is far superior? He's certainly NOT a ball mover. Fewer assists than Melo, and worse defense, MUCH worse. Dirk's FG% are better, but not by a ton and Melo's have improved his last 3 years.

Guns.. I want ALL the things you want. I dont disagree with a single point, especially the drafting part. But you have to get in the playoffs to win. That an important part!

I think we need a major PG upgrade, keep Melo and fill the roster with guys who are happy to play defense as their primary role. Do that we are back to 50+ like last year.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

he is not a two-way player-- makes it tough to win it all when he has never shown an aptitude or desire to expend more energy on defense than offense. it really says a lot about a player. garnett always has given greater energy on defense. all the true greats do, even the ones that get hammered for not being great defenders, like bird and johnson.

And? Your point?

He was still good enough to make the Conf finals and win a game vs. LA. I watched everyone of those game and he was not dogging it defensively. Nice buzz word though.

Please show me some clips where Melo was not giving energy on defense in the playoffs. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT RIGHT? And don't spin this into something else - reg season -> postseason or postseason -> regular season.

There were many not great defenders who have won rings.

MANY VARIABLES.

Remember, I actually believe that CB (one of my favorites) was the best player on that Denver squad.

And, when you have a minute. Please review the history and stats of AI on Denver and let me know your take.

i am not a good person to ask about iverson-- not a fan of his game. not marbury's or francis's either. or jennings. or bynum. or arenas.

That is why I expect/respect more out of you. Because you seem to have a better grasp of of (actual) player impact. Though, you need to do some more research in this space so that you become more informed about the past and not just listen to reinventionists spewing and spinning untruths.

So a little AI history ...

AI came to Denver and probably played his best regular season basketball ever (efficiency wise, though far from superstar lever). And Melo did well too with him ... in the regular season.

Then ... the postseason's. Melo played very well and AI WAS ATROCIOUS BEYOND BELIEF! Check it up ... stats don't lie. His TS was 44 and 50 respectively (awful) and his WS48 in denver (postseason) was a bloody disastrous .032.

So ... they fleeced the sh1t out of Detroit in probably was one of their franchises worst moves ever and CB comes to Denver. CB was great and delivered. Denver was VERY successful with him and Melo playing together. And, please check the postseason stats/efficiency. Not a coincidence.

His first 3 years/postseasons in Denver (Melo) were not good at all. I don't think that is what we are blaming him for?

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I agree. No one should ever try to compare KG(all time NBA great) to Melo.

Melo needs help but he's not on Jordan, Kobe, KG lebron's level. Get those guys help and they win rings. Melo is not good enough to win it all with unless we get really lucky ith a great GM great coach and a total team effort. If the goal is just making the playoffs then Melo is definitely your guy. I would jump to give a 25-26yr old close to max money. Not 30+year old Melo. Unless he was one those guys level I mentioned

No way I give him a max and he is certainly not on the caliber of those players. So what! What does that have to do with first round exits?

See how this jumps like a ADHD?

you would give him the max rather than losing him for nothing. Thats the really the question. Not some perceived worth.

I let him walk. No way I give him the max.

but I am not the GM, what the hell do I know?

Trading him for assets makes all the sense in the world. Phil would be the ultimate gangsta if he pulls that off. I trust Phil

you MUST MUST MUST come away with at least one guy who on paper is worth building around.

Chandler Parsons comes to mind (but he's due to get PAID). Who else?

That's the trade parsons Lin asik for Melo but it depends on whether Morey will discount Melos subpar efficiency numbers and whether he thinks Melo and Harden can coexist on the same team. Maybe he gets desperate for a big 3 if the rockets are bounced early.

That would be an amazing scenario for Phil Jackson and the Knicks. With that said even if we don't get back as much talent but we get high picks I rather watch that than a 30+ Melo centric team. Gun to my head that's what I'm going with. Phil is a great basketball mind. This would only reaffirm that I am always right. GO PHIL!!

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

he is not a two-way player-- makes it tough to win it all when he has never shown an aptitude or desire to expend more energy on defense than offense. it really says a lot about a player. garnett always has given greater energy on defense. all the true greats do, even the ones that get hammered for not being great defenders, like bird and johnson.

And? Your point?

He was still good enough to make the Conf finals and win a game vs. LA. I watched everyone of those game and he was not dogging it defensively. Nice buzz word though.

Please show me some clips where Melo was not giving energy on defense in the playoffs. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT RIGHT? And don't spin this into something else - reg season -> postseason or postseason -> regular season.

There were many not great defenders who have won rings.

MANY VARIABLES.

Remember, I actually believe that CB (one of my favorites) was the best player on that Denver squad.

And, when you have a minute. Please review the history and stats of AI on Denver and let me know your take.

i am not a good person to ask about iverson-- not a fan of his game. not marbury's or francis's either. or jennings. or bynum. or arenas.

That is why I expect/respect more out of you. Because you seem to have a better grasp of of (actual) player impact. Though, you need to do some more research in this space so that you become more informed about the past and not just listen to reinventionists spewing and spinning untruths.

So a little AI history ...

AI came to Denver and probably played his best regular season basketball ever (efficiency wise, though far from superstar lever). And Melo did well too with him ... in the regular season.

Then ... the postseason's. Melo played very well and AI WAS ATROCIOUS BEYOND BELIEF! Check it up ... stats don't lie. His TS was 44 and 50 respectively (awful) and his WS48 in denver (postseason) was a bloody disastrous .032.

So ... they fleeced the sh1t out of Detroit in probably was one of their franchises worst moves ever and CB comes to Denver. CB was great and delivered. Denver was VERY successful with him and Melo playing together. And, please check the postseason stats/efficiency. Not a coincidence.

His first 3 years/postseasons in Denver (Melo) were not good at all. I don't think that is what we are blaming him for?

i don't really care about regular season achievements. i have been consistent in that belief. there are plenty of regular-season heroes whose games do not really translate to playoff success beyond the first round, which is a meaningless round that rewards mediocrity.

in the playoffs a lot of shiny stat players underachieve because they are not complete players who can do all the things that do not show up in a stat sheet... although with the advent of advanced stats that could change. the main issue becomes poise and decision-making. these are aspects of a player's performance that will remain hard to account for.