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jazz74
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5/11/2004  11:14 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

technomaster...

your take on Sam Cassell is on point and exactly my point. People forget about Sam Cassell. They forget he already won 2 titles and was a very huge part of that. He's won everywhere and his skills especially his ability to be clutch is always over looked.

Look at Tony's career thus far compared to Sam Cassells first few. Cassell killed the Knicks in 94...that was his rookie year. Tony Parker could barely control his own handle.

Yo, check out Tinsley's play. He was benched heavily last year and this year. They openly shopped for a point guard and now all of a sudden Tinsley is silently leading the Indiana Pacers who had the leagues best record. They were drafted in the same year. Tinsley is making a name while Tony always had the hype even though they both sucked up until reciently.

I kind of agree with you Top five points. Kind of for obvious reasons.

and this proves the point i made before: image. the media fiends for image of players. real basketball enthusiasts know that cassell is a great point guard who can kill teams. but the media points to the snarling cassell who yelled at his teammates in phoenix and new jersey and ostrasized tim thomas in milwakee. cassel scored 40 points TWICE in the playoffs and it was just a little blip on the media's radar. parker has a game that would be average for a healthy steve francis or steph and he is great. like i said before, i like parker and he deserves some credit. but i can not blame his exposure on the nba or fans. like always it is the media. like chuck d said, "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE"!
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tkf
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5/11/2004  11:23 AM
Steph and Francis should be in that top 5.... But kidd has been struggling, and parker had 2 good games, I can't draw the same conclusions on the top 5..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
EnySpree
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5/11/2004  9:11 PM
Posted by jazz74:
Posted by EnySpree:

technomaster...

your take on Sam Cassell is on point and exactly my point. People forget about Sam Cassell. They forget he already won 2 titles and was a very huge part of that. He's won everywhere and his skills especially his ability to be clutch is always over looked.

Look at Tony's career thus far compared to Sam Cassells first few. Cassell killed the Knicks in 94...that was his rookie year. Tony Parker could barely control his own handle.

Yo, check out Tinsley's play. He was benched heavily last year and this year. They openly shopped for a point guard and now all of a sudden Tinsley is silently leading the Indiana Pacers who had the leagues best record. They were drafted in the same year. Tinsley is making a name while Tony always had the hype even though they both sucked up until reciently.

I kind of agree with you Top five points. Kind of for obvious reasons.

and this proves the point i made before: image. the media fiends for image of players. real basketball enthusiasts know that cassell is a great point guard who can kill teams. but the media points to the snarling cassell who yelled at his teammates in phoenix and new jersey and ostrasized tim thomas in milwakee. cassel scored 40 points TWICE in the playoffs and it was just a little blip on the media's radar. parker has a game that would be average for a healthy steve francis or steph and he is great. like i said before, i like parker and he deserves some credit. but i can not blame his exposure on the nba or fans. like always it is the media. like chuck d said, "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE"!

exaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly
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technomaster
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5/12/2004  1:52 AM
Tony Parker is an interesting character.

Look at his numbers during the first round series vs Memphis:
gm1 10pts/8ast/2rbd/4to
gm2 27pts/7ast/3rbd/2to
gm3 18pts/6ast/1rbd/3to
gm4 29pts/13ast/2rbd/4to
1st round average: 21ppg/8.5apg/2rpg/3.25tpg

2nd round
gm1 20pts/9ast/4rbd/1to
gm2 30pts/5ast/2rbd/1to
gm3 8pts/5ast/2rbd/3to (loss)
gm4 18pts/8ast/0rbd/4to (loss)
2nd round avg so far: 19ppg/6.75apg/1.5rpg/2.25tpg

Playoffs Overall (so far): 20ppg/7.6apg/1.75rpg/2.75tpg

With those numbers, he was very arguably the best PG in the 1st round (keeping in mind all 4 of those games were wins).

Marbury
gm1 13pts/2ast/5rbd/2to
gm2 23pts/7ast/3rbds/5to
gm3 18pts/10ast/6rbd/3to
gm4 31pts/7ast/3rbd/4to
totals 21.25ppg/6.5apg/4.25rpg/3.5tpg

Wow... remarkably similar stats during their first round series. Not what you'd expect for $19million more. Granted, no one can live up to their giant contracts, at least not without winning a title. :)

As far as Cassell goes... he is quite a bit older than these other guys (can you believe he's about 14 years older than Parker!) and likely is on the far end of his prime (you couldn't tell since he put up some of the best #s of his career!). And as I said before, he's not as physically gifted as these other guys. However, few would argue with his leadership abilities and his consistently excellent performance in the clutch. He's a guy who learned how to play in the NBA with a dominant post presence (much like Parker) and developed skills to complement that. With the game on the line, there are are a precious few players in the league I'd like more with the ball.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
tkf
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5/12/2004  2:05 AM
Techno; those stats are so misleading. First of all, marbury was going up against Kidd, while parker was matched up vs, watson and Williams... Next Marbury was the knicks main scorer, the nets doubled and tripled teamed him every game, he didn't have a Duncan to go to, actually he didn't even have a healthy Houston or Tim thomas... Teams are not focusing on parker like they are Steph, and quit it with this 19 mil more crap, steph does not make 20 million dollars. It is assinine posts like this that shows me that people have no integrity with their posts, that some people will post shyt without putting things into perspective, or giving a fair view of things. I for one second you think that if steph was on the spurs he would not only be winning series but we would probably be talking MVP of the playoffs. Put parker in stephs spot in NY and we don't make the playoffs. Have some integrity when you post, stop twisting and talking out the side of your mouth, this type of posting is shameful IMO... No offense but that kind of post is credibility suicide...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
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5/12/2004  8:40 AM
Im taking parker over Tinsly and miller without blinking.

Im taking Parker over Fracis cuz I think Stevie is a two guard, and not coachable.

If I am looking at building a team and get to pick a player, I take Parker because at 21 he is acomplished (to a degree0 and is still a work in progress at his age.

Some of those guys are great basketball players but don't have the hoop IQ. Francis' is very low in my opinion. Stephs is not that high either. But I am hoping Obi One Isiah can teach young jedi Steph the powers of the force. Francis has gone over to the dark side.
EnySpree
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5/12/2004  11:54 AM
Posted by technomaster:

He's (Sam Cassel)a guy who learned how to play in the NBA with a dominant post presence (much like Parker) and developed skills to complement that. With the game on the line, there are are a precious few players in the league I'd like more with the ball.

You guy sthrow that "developed" word around too often. You can't tell me that Cassels play as a rookie was developed? So Rudy Tomjonovich taught Cassel how to make clutch baskets?

Difference between Cassel and Parker is that Cassel to this day has always lead winning clubs he played with Hakeem but he was a big part of two championships. Cassel has won everywhere he played in this league. He wasn't be out shined by a Speedy Claxton. Cassel was on the bench but he was a super sub kicking butt. To this day Cassel still doesn't get the respect he deserves.

So you bring stats to prove what? That you don't understand the point of the thread?

Parker was a guy from france that could run and was one of the better players in France. So he won a junior world championship in France. So France is now the basketball capital of the world? The guys over there don't play ball...they play basketball....which is very different. Tony has been given the benefit of the doubt from the time he dropped on the radar.

Cassel is more than just clutch he is a ball player. Parker is still not there yet and that is the whole thing in a nutchell. Develop is something that PArker had to do because he had no clue on how to play the point guard position. Cassel came into the league with guns blazing and at the end of his career people are just noticing him....yet won't give the guy his due as compared to Tony.
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tkf
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5/12/2004  12:21 PM
I remember casell from his FSU days, playing with ward and sura, the guy could always play, I remember when he was in NJ and people called him selfish, well sam hasn't changed his game and now all of a sudden he is a smarter player..LOL.. come on, when casell was with the Rockets I didn't hear any negatives about him, he plays on a bad team he becomes a cancer. I wouldn't even compare casell to Parker, casell and Marbury are both heads and shoulders above him talent wise, and the same goes for Steve francis, I don't care if people view him as a 2 guard, the guy can flat out play basketball...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
posterchild
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5/12/2004  12:32 PM
posterchild, feel free to read the Forum Etiquette Reminder.

- Mod Edit
Frank Williams is the best knicks player this year. mad Respect
Nalod
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5/12/2004  3:56 PM
Sam is a brother from another planet.

Is mom is E.T.
crzymdups
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5/13/2004  10:30 AM
Alright, what are people in this post smoking?

First: Sam Cassell. PLEASE, stop giving him credit for 'winning' two titles. He rode the coattails of the most dominant player in the game for two years. Hakeem DOMINATED the league for two hot years while Jordan was goofing off and Sam rode the coattails. Sam's a nice complementary players, but if you look closely he's had his best years when playing with an MVP!!!!!

Second: Tony Parker. PLEASE stop giving him credit for 'leading' the Spurs. First, look how he looked in LA. Second, he also happens to play with the most dominant player in the game. It's no secret that Tim Duncan needs to play well for Tony to get his looks and get space to operate. The only way to shut down Duncan is if the former most dominant player feels like it (Shaq, if you are wondering).

Third: Stephon Marbury and Jason Kidd and Baron Davis are the best point guards in the NBA. Period. Period. Period. No more questions.

The NBA is a league decided by the big men. Sure, guards hit big shots down the stretch and end up making the difference in big games, but you don't get there without a Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. Unless your name is Michael Jordan. It's simply ridiculous to compare Parker's stats to Marbury's. Who does Marbury have with him? Who else on the Knicks was drawing double teams. Be real, people.
¿ △ ?
EnySpree
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5/13/2004  12:29 PM
ah ha!!!

Finally someone posting that thinks both sides are stupid!

We're debating hype. As you see my take and TKF's take is similiar. We think that guys like Marbury come into the league getting the raw deal. Cassell, Marbury, Iverson, etc...came into the league as rookies and played well. But all of them have been called thugs, ignorant, selfish, not dedicated to winning, lazy.....anything you can think of but they have been doing nothing but destroying the competition.

Baron Davis for one is a walking highlight film. I've never seen anybody his size jump like he does. He crosses, and posterizes people daily. Tony Parker does one simple move and it is analyzed on ever sports show.

I don't like Parker because to me he isn't that special of a player. If Baron was on the Spurs, or Marbury, or Cassell or Kidd.....the Spurs would be like the Celtics from back in the day...championships every year.

I just hate what parker represents and what the league and media is trying to promote. It's not the game. Parker was garbage coming into this league. He needed to be taught everything. Now things are starting to work out for him which is great but why does he get so much hype when he was stinking up the court with his terrible play as a rookie?
Marbury like the ones I mentioned came into the leageu playing like they had 3 years NBA experience already....and they still don't get credit for that.
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tkf
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5/13/2004  12:34 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Alright, what are people in this post smoking?

First: Sam Cassell. PLEASE, stop giving him credit for 'winning' two titles. He rode the coattails of the most dominant player in the game for two years. Hakeem DOMINATED the league for two hot years while Jordan was goofing off and Sam rode the coattails. Sam's a nice complementary players, but if you look closely he's had his best years when playing with an MVP!!!!!

Second: Tony Parker. PLEASE stop giving him credit for 'leading' the Spurs. First, look how he looked in LA. Second, he also happens to play with the most dominant player in the game. It's no secret that Tim Duncan needs to play well for Tony to get his looks and get space to operate. The only way to shut down Duncan is if the former most dominant player feels like it (Shaq, if you are wondering).

Third: Stephon Marbury and Jason Kidd and Baron Davis are the best point guards in the NBA. Period. Period. Period. No more questions.

The NBA is a league decided by the big men. Sure, guards hit big shots down the stretch and end up making the difference in big games, but you don't get there without a Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, etc. Unless your name is Michael Jordan. It's simply ridiculous to compare Parker's stats to Marbury's. Who does Marbury have with him? Who else on the Knicks was drawing double teams. Be real, people.

excellent post, I mean even stevie wonder can see that Baron, Kidd and steph are the cream of the crop PG's, no argument.
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
EnySpree
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5/14/2004  5:34 PM
yeah.....what makes Kidd so good is the fact that he happens to be in the perfect system for his style of play. He has Jefferson, Martin on the wings with Kittles always there running with him. What else can you ask for if you are a point guard that pushes up the ball. It's just beautiful.

The Spurs are a machine......not really point guard oriented much like Sacramento. Still we all know that when it's game time Bibby is gonna be that guy. Parker hasn't shown that yet for all these cowboy's trying to jump on the bandwagon.
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Nalod
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5/14/2004  8:03 PM
YOu talk about Tony so much I think you just sweet on him and put him down to cover up how you really feel about Mr. Tony the smooth good looking French boy.

EnyTony!
EnySpree
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5/15/2004  12:34 PM
Tony can play...never said he couldn't.

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technomaster
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5/15/2004  11:26 PM
Hmm. Regarding the Spurs Machine--- it's interesting that this season, the ONLY PG that has managed to perform respectably is Parker. NY's very own Charlie Ward has failed to excel in a system that you'd think would be ideal for his skill set.

I've had Bibby on a keepers fantasy league for years--- fact is... for a #2 overall pick, I might argue that he's a bit disappointing. Kind of just a steady PG, not really close to being a superstar. He's not a Kidd who drives his team... he's also not a bigtime scorer who's the main option on his team. Maybe it's a result of having so many excellent passing big men (Divac/Miller... and the oft injured Webber)who average within an assist of him. However, he didn't really dominate on the Grizzlies either...


Posted by EnySpree:

<snip>

The Spurs are a machine......not really point guard oriented much like Sacramento. Still we all know that when it's game time Bibby is gonna be that guy. Parker hasn't shown that yet for all these cowboy's trying to jump on the bandwagon.
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tkf
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5/16/2004  11:01 AM
hahahah... Love em and leave em.... At first a buch of knicks haters(disguised as fans) and the media were all over tony's jock,now after 4 straight loses, Silence... Just what I thought... Now I am waiting for all his supporters to step up and defend him as quick as they were to put him on this pedastool over steph, Kidd, and God himself....

[Edited by - tkf on 05/16/2004 11:03:54]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
EnySpree
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5/16/2004  8:07 PM
Posted by tkf:

hahahah... Love em and leave em.... At first a buch of knicks haters(disguised as fans) and the media were all over tony's jock,now after 4 straight loses, Silence... Just what I thought... Now I am waiting for all his supporters to step up and defend him as quick as they were to put him on this pedastool over steph, Kidd, and God himself....

[Edited by - tkf on 05/16/2004 11:03:54]

Yeah man I'm just sick of it.

Tony was back to mormal. Let a guy have a few games back to back and people wanna say he's better than, or more consistant, etc.....

Whatever......Never say the word lead and Tony Parker in the same sentence. He's not a floor general.
You can say Bibby under achieved all you want......Bibby is a rock when the game is on the line....straight ice cold.

Tony hasn't proved that. Stop proclaiming great players before they are crowned. You gotta earn respect. Tony Parker hasn't.

And there is no way in hell that you can compare him to Kidd, Marbury, Baron, Francis, even Bibby and Nash.
Let the Kidd earn his spot.....
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tkf
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5/16/2004  8:23 PM
Enyspree: that kind of stuff is typical around here, in the matter of 1 series, steph has become a second tier PG..(rolling eyes) Steve Francis is barely better than charlie ward, Odom, Butler and wade have become Great players and studs, and Parker has become a PG God... All of this happened in just 2 weeks. I am just wondering if these players are that good, then on what level are guys like Kobe, Duncan, KG and Mcgrady? You see that is why you just can't throw that great level on a player, that has to be earned, I think guys like Kobe, shaq, T-mac,KG, Ivy are great players, then you have the level below, guys like Stephon, Francis, Baron, Vince Carter, Kidd, and guys like that.
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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