[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

GameThread: Nooner! Grizz in town.
Author Thread
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  2:58 PM
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
AUTOADVERT
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

12/21/2013  2:58 PM
Shump is 6-42 but it's everyone else's fault. He just needs a change of scenery where he can play uptempo, although that doesn't hurt Hardaway, and get out on the breaks. He is also being used wrong on D, he needs to only guard the player with the ball. If he plays help D or tries to defend on screens he is useless but the coaches should know better. Shump grow back the box.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

12/21/2013  3:00 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
Look i think you make good points. Like i said i have nothing against bargs But he isnt as good as you make him out to be
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

12/21/2013  3:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2013  3:02 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Shump is 6-42 but it's everyone else's fault. He just needs a change of scenery where he can play uptempo, although that doesn't hurt Hardaway, and get out on the breaks. He is also being used wrong on D, he needs to only guard the player with the ball. If he plays help D or tries to defend on screens he is useless but the coaches should know better. Shump grow back the box.
I feel bad for Shump. The ownership/management really killed his confidence. I agree he needs a change of scenery. Not excusing his poor play but i think he will have a decent future with another team that actually wnats him
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  3:03 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
Look i think you make good points. Like i said i have nothing against bargs But he isnt as good as you make him out to be

I haven't made Bargs out to be anything but what he is. I said that he isn't really going to give you much besides scoring and I NEVER really made any other point. The thing is that if you trade for him then you MUST use him in the best way to maximize what he does best. He's a good PnP big and a good Man defender against bigs. If you don't run a lot of PnP then what do you really expect from him? That's what he does better than any other Big in the NBA statistically, but we don't run that much PnP. Can't blame him for that.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

12/21/2013  3:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2013  3:06 PM
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
Look i think you make good points. Like i said i have nothing against bargs But he isnt as good as you make him out to be

I haven't made Bargs out to be anything but what he is. I said that he isn't really going to give you much besides scoring and I NEVER really made any other point. The thing is that if you trade for him then you MUST use him in the best way to maximize what he does best. He's a good PnP big and a good Man defender against bigs. If you don't run a lot of PnP then what do you really expect from him? That's what he does better than any other Big in the NBA statistically, but we don't run that much PnP. Can't blame him for that.
Thats my point. The trade made no sense for us really. he doenst really help us much. Maybe another team would benefit more from him. id rather have the draft picks back
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

12/21/2013  3:06 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Shump is 6-42 but it's everyone else's fault. He just needs a change of scenery where he can play uptempo, although that doesn't hurt Hardaway, and get out on the breaks. He is also being used wrong on D, he needs to only guard the player with the ball. If he plays help D or tries to defend on screens he is useless but the coaches should know better. Shump grow back the box.
I feel bad for Shump. The ownership/management really killed his confidence. I agree he needs a change of scenery. Not excusing his poor play but i think he will have a decent future with another team that actually wnats him

They said the same about Landry. Nobody killed his confidence. The guy has been bad since game 1 defensively and on O. I do think they should run plays for him but what can he do besides spot up? Maybe it's the knee injury. IDK but I get tired of the excuses he gets.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

12/21/2013  3:06 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Shump is 6-42 but it's everyone else's fault. He just needs a change of scenery where he can play uptempo, although that doesn't hurt Hardaway, and get out on the breaks. He is also being used wrong on D, he needs to only guard the player with the ball. If he plays help D or tries to defend on screens he is useless but the coaches should know better. Shump grow back the box.
I feel bad for Shump. The ownership/management really killed his confidence. I agree he needs a change of scenery. Not excusing his poor play but i think he will have a decent future with another team that actually wnats him

They said the same about Landry. Nobody killed his confidence. The guy has been bad since game 1 defensively and on O. I do think they should run plays for him but what can he do besides spot up? Maybe it's the knee injury. IDK but I get tired of the excuses he gets.
I didnt excuse him. In fact i said i dont excuse his poor play
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

12/21/2013  3:08 PM
The problem with Bargs is that he has played better than what most may have expected but even that is still garbage. If his shot is not falling he is useless because his overall D.
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
12/21/2013  3:08 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303773704579266762885659706


Center's Misfires Create Fast Breaks for Knicks' Foes
If Bargnani Misses From Long Range, Opposing Team Usually Scores

By CHRIS HERRING
Updated Dec. 19, 2013 10:16 p.m. ET
Andrea Bargnani has long been one of the NBA's toughest players to label.

Proponents of his game see him as an athletic, floor-spacing 7-footer with game-changing ability on offense, particularly his outside shooting. Others argue that Bargnani's scoring punch isn't worth what he gives up as a slow-footed defender and subpar rebounder at his position.

But almost everyone has overlooked perhaps the biggest reason why Bargnani's teams struggle when he's on the court: When he misses from long range, it usually turns into automatic points for the opposing team.


Andrea Bargnani's flat jump shots allow opponents to score at a high rate when he misses. European Pressphoto Agency

This season, Knicks opponents have grabbed 58 rebounds on jumpers that Bargnani has missed from outside the paint, and 35 of them—a whopping 60.3%—have led to a basket on the other end of the floor. That scoring rate off one player's missed shots is the highest in the NBA, just ahead of Detroit's Brandon Jennings and Brooklyn's Joe Johnson, according to Stats LLC.

In Bargnani's case, this season is no aberration: Opponents have scored after grabbing rebounds off his missed jumpers at least 50% of the time in each of the past five seasons—hardly a coincidence considering that the league as a whole scores just 45.8% of the time after a miss. Looking back over the past 15 years of play-by-play data, Bargnani is the only player to have logged five straight years at 50% or above.

Of course, Bargnani has helped the Knicks in a number of ways, too. In the absence of injured center Tyson Chandler, he has shown himself to be a good one-on-one post defender. And entering Wednesday's game in Milwaukee, he was averaging 15 points a night on 45% shooting as the team's No. 2 scorer.

But the statistic may shed light on why coaches—first in Toronto, now in New York—have struggled to incorporate Bargnani into the mix without him being a net negative. Over his seven seasons in the league, the 28-year-old has experienced just two in which his club outscored its opponents during his minutes on the floor. As of Wednesday, the Knicks had been beaten by 90 points in Bargnani's 753 minutes, an average of 5.7 points per 48 minutes.

Asked about how frequently teams score off his misses, Bargnani seemed perplexed. "I don't know," said Bargnani, who is shooting just below 30% three-point range. "We just have to get back as a team on defense. You can't let the other team beat you down the floor for easy points."

The Knicks, who according to Synergy Sports have allowed scores on a league-high 59.6% of their opponent's transition opportunities, have struggled with fast-break defense when Bargnani plays. When he's on the floor, the team has allowed 15.8 fast-break points per 100 plays—up from 11.1 points when he's on the bench, per NBA.com. Some of that stems from Bargnani's limited wheels: At an average of 3.7 miles per hour, he is the sixth-slowest player in the league's 445-player database, according to SportVU player-tracking technology.

But the bigger factor may be Bargnani's relatively flat jumper, which causes long rebounds when it ricochets off the rim, providing ready-made fastbreaks. Bargnani's jumpers from outside the paint average a maximum height of 14.7 feet, a half-foot lower than the league average of 15.2 feet, according to SportVU. Kevin Garnett has a similarly low trajectory, and the Nets have also seen opponents score on more than half his misfires this year.

Compare that with Steve Novak, who took 351 three-pointers for the Knicks last year before being traded for Bargnani. Novak's jumpers averaged 15.6 feet of arc, and Knicks opponents scored only 33.3% of the time after he missed, tied for the lowest rate in the league.

Raptors consultant John Townsend, a shooting coach who has worked with both Novak and Bargnani, said the mechanical differences between the shooters helps explain the disparity in how often teams score off their misses. Where Novak's release compares to a restaurant waiter carrying a tray of food, with his palm held up and off to the side of his head, Bargnani—who has "good, but not perfect alignment," said Townsend—brings the ball near his eyebrow area, where he can't consistently straighten out his arm to get extra arc on his shots.

"And if the trajectory of the shot is flatter, that means it's probably faster, and you're gonna have less friendly bounces off the rim," Townsend said.

I don't think he is a fan of Bargs. When knowledgeable guys write about that trade and refer to 'the picks' moved without acknowledging that two of the picks are second rounders and the first round pick already was compromised by Denver's right to swap. He also came out hard after Bargs had his blunder in the Bucks game. Maybe it isn't agenda driven but it seems like he is a bit keyed in on Bargs if he highlights the type of shot one particular Knick takes and how it impacts the team if he misses.
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/making-sense-bargnani-trade-1946676/
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

12/21/2013  3:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2013  3:15 PM
Woodson is doing a horrible job..He just can't put Beno in those situations where he gets destroyed time and time again...Beno should never be on the court when Wall, Beal, Conley or when any quick PG is playing...He is just getting totally destroyed..It's an automatic two points by just blowing by him, scoring or dishing...And how do we manage to attract the most woeful defenders in the NBA...It's just uncanny...Novak and Beno are the worst defensive players I have ever seen...
smackeddog
Posts: 38386
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
12/21/2013  3:11 PM
Chump appears to be Landry Fields mark 2
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

12/21/2013  3:11 PM
holfresh wrote:Woodson is doing a horrible job..He just can't put Beno in those situations where he gets destroyed time and time again...Beno should never be on the court when Wall, Beal, Conley or any quick PG is playing...He is just getting totally destroyed..It's an automatic two points by just blowing by him, scoring or dishing...And how do we manage to attract the most woeful defenders in the NBA...It's just uncanny...Novak and Beno is the worst defensive players I have ever seen...
Agreed. Not sure why Murray doenst get a shot
Knicks22
Posts: 20188
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/17/2013
Member: #5689

12/21/2013  3:11 PM
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
Look i think you make good points. Like i said i have nothing against bargs But he isnt as good as you make him out to be

I haven't made Bargs out to be anything but what he is. I said that he isn't really going to give you much besides scoring and I NEVER really made any other point. The thing is that if you trade for him then you MUST use him in the best way to maximize what he does best. He's a good PnP big and a good Man defender against bigs. If you don't run a lot of PnP then what do you really expect from him? That's what he does better than any other Big in the NBA statistically, but we don't run that much PnP. Can't blame him for that.

I agree with you on Barg. broader issue you make about PNR system, is probably right, but, brings me back to my biggest frustration with Melo - even when Amare healthy (classic PNR player), and had energetic play from PG, seemed Melo tuned it out, and, alas, back to ISO.

I dont like knocking Melo all the time, do think he's working very hard out there, but, just seems that this team has too many guys whose talents aren't be used well, because of the anarchy known as Woodson's offense (roll ball onto court, let everyone do what they want...). Just dont' get it.

As to defense, Barg isn't great, but, for a defensive coach, where's the beef?

nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  3:15 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:The problem with Bargs is that he has played better than what most may have expected but even that is still garbage. If his shot is not falling he is useless because his overall D.

Still missing the point of the fact that the guys is the most efficient big on PnP plays in the league and we very rarely use him that way. If you just ignore statistical evidence it's bound to lead to failure. With Bargs he's only gonna be the player he is, but on this team that hasn't been the biggest problem. There are a lot of other players WAY ahead of him on that list. That's what I was trying to show in that list of PER. He's producing more than most of the team and that's with us NOT using him at his best!!!

nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  3:21 PM
Knicks22 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Way to overreact on Bargs! He's not even close to the biggest issue on this team.
true but i wouldnt do taht trade over agian. he isnt worth losing a 1st round pick over IMO,

I think Bargs would be MUCH better with a PnR PG and a real offense that had ball n player movement. Too much wasted possessions of ISO BALL. you're just wasting his minutes if he's not involved. His main thing is scoring of PnP. No sense playing him if you don't use him that way.

Look I dont hate Bargs and i can tell you are a bigtime fan of his which is cool but his acquisition made no sense with this team. we really needed another decent big man to compliment tyson

I'm not a bigtime fan of Bargs. I'm just fair to him or anyone that I think gets a raw deal. This team has only a few players that are really productive and Bargs is one of them. If we actually ran a lot more PnP BB that would make him even more productive. We don't!!! We run WAY too much ISO ball and so his effectiveness is lessened.

PLAYER	GP	GS	PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 25 23.7
Tyson Chandler, C 5 20.2
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG 24 16.4
Andrea Bargnani, PF 25 16.2
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF 19 14.7
Kenyon Martin, PF 19 13.8
Pablo Prigioni, PG 24 13.7
Metta World Peace, SF 22 12.8
Beno Udrih, PG 18 12.5
Raymond Felton, PG 16 11.7
Iman Shumpert, SG 25 9.5
Toure' Murry, SG 10 9.4
J.R. Smith, SG 20 9.2

Just look at the PER of each Knick and tell me who the REAL problems are?


Everyone except melo if we're going by PER. the league average is 15...Bargs doesnt make average money so yes he is a problem.

For a while Bargs was producing a higher PER, but his recent play has fallen off as the team has really gone to more and more ISO. The real issue with this team is HOW they play and it effects everyone except for Melo who is gonna get his anyway. You can't play a style of ball that doesn't enhance the skills of your role players. This Woody style of play this year is not conducive to helping the role players excel.
Look i think you make good points. Like i said i have nothing against bargs But he isnt as good as you make him out to be

I haven't made Bargs out to be anything but what he is. I said that he isn't really going to give you much besides scoring and I NEVER really made any other point. The thing is that if you trade for him then you MUST use him in the best way to maximize what he does best. He's a good PnP big and a good Man defender against bigs. If you don't run a lot of PnP then what do you really expect from him? That's what he does better than any other Big in the NBA statistically, but we don't run that much PnP. Can't blame him for that.

I agree with you on Barg. broader issue you make about PNR system, is probably right, but, brings me back to my biggest frustration with Melo - even when Amare healthy (classic PNR player), and had energetic play from PG, seemed Melo tuned it out, and, alas, back to ISO.

I dont like knocking Melo all the time, do think he's working very hard out there, but, just seems that this team has too many guys whose talents aren't be used well, because of the anarchy known as Woodson's offense (roll ball onto court, let everyone do what they want...). Just dont' get it.

As to defense, Barg isn't great, but, for a defensive coach, where's the beef?

I don't even blame Melo for this mess. The coach sets the style of play and last year they at least ran a style that made sense for the role players and Melo alike. That spread offense with Melo in the post was about the best option with the roster we had. This year they needed to find a style that would work for the team they have now, but it seems that Woody has no ideas. Just ISO Melo, ISO JR... NADA.

holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

12/21/2013  3:22 PM
Bargs excels when their is a PG that runs a tempo offense..Tempo is not part of Beno or Prig's game..The offense has been sputtering without Felton getting into the lane and creating opportunities for Bargs...We need a PG who can run a rhythm offense and get the team into a tempo...The team is lethargic...We have too many guys who likes to stand around, hold the ball to score...
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  3:28 PM
holfresh wrote:Bargs excels when their is a PG that runs a tempo offense..Tempo is not part of Beno or Prig's game..The offense has been sputtering without Felton getting into the lane and creating opportunities for Bargs...We need a PG who can run a rhythm offense and get the team into a tempo...The team is lethargic...We have too many guys who likes to stand around, hold the ball to score...

I agree with this. However, it would make a difference if you at least tried to run sets that called for more PnR/PnP action and off ball motion. This team is running such a slow and methodical offense. They do stand around WAY too much as you say. This leads inevitably to only one kind of play and that's ISO. The sets they run most are to get the ball to Melo in the post. Then they wing it with JR or Beno handling the ball too much, and still end up going ISO. It's the WORST offense i've ever seen. For a team that has to score to win, that is a horrible style to play.

holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

12/21/2013  3:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2013  3:35 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Bargs excels when their is a PG that runs a tempo offense..Tempo is not part of Beno or Prig's game..The offense has been sputtering without Felton getting into the lane and creating opportunities for Bargs...We need a PG who can run a rhythm offense and get the team into a tempo...The team is lethargic...We have too many guys who likes to stand around, hold the ball to score...

I agree with this. However, it would make a difference if you at least tried to run sets that called for more PnR/PnP action and off ball motion. This team is running such a slow and methodical offense. They do stand around WAY too much as you say. This leads inevitably to only one kind of play and that's ISO. The sets they run most are to get the ball to Melo in the post. Then they wing it with JR or Beno handling the ball too much, and still end up going ISO. It's the WORST offense i've ever seen. For a team that has to score to win, that is a horrible style to play.

Well there are two ways the Knicks are able to get open looks..One of them is our PG getting into the lane and the other is Melo passing out of the double team in the post...If you don't have players who can create a mismatch( getting into the lane then kicking it), you won't have ball movement...U also need guys who can knock down their open looks which haven't been happening either...

nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
12/21/2013  3:46 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Bargs excels when their is a PG that runs a tempo offense..Tempo is not part of Beno or Prig's game..The offense has been sputtering without Felton getting into the lane and creating opportunities for Bargs...We need a PG who can run a rhythm offense and get the team into a tempo...The team is lethargic...We have too many guys who likes to stand around, hold the ball to score...

I agree with this. However, it would make a difference if you at least tried to run sets that called for more PnR/PnP action and off ball motion. This team is running such a slow and methodical offense. They do stand around WAY too much as you say. This leads inevitably to only one kind of play and that's ISO. The sets they run most are to get the ball to Melo in the post. Then they wing it with JR or Beno handling the ball too much, and still end up going ISO. It's the WORST offense i've ever seen. For a team that has to score to win, that is a horrible style to play.

Well there are two ways the Knicks are able to get open looks..One of them is our PG getting into the lane and the other is Melo passing out of the double team in the post...If you don't have players who can create a mismatch( getting into the lane then kicking it), you won't have ball movement...U also need guys who can knock down their open looks which haven't been happening either...

Part of Knocking down shots is taking the shot you're best at shooting. This team proved last year that they basically are only good at catch and shoot from 3pt range. So the spread offense with Melo in the post was the best option. If you have guys like THJ and Shump that can work. Shump is trying to hard and it's in his head now. He was stroking the ball nice last year on catch and shoot 3's. Now he's getting caught in uncomfortable shooting situations. His confidence is gone. I blame that on Woody, who messed with his head from day one this year.

Woody should have these guys practicing PnR and the spread offense they ran last year. A kid like Murry needs lots of work to get comfortable with PnR offense like that. I don't get the sense that they're working on it.

GameThread: Nooner! Grizz in town.

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy