Woody was insulted that people were saying Ball Movement was a huge problem. The fact is that we have video evidence of the team working on Ball Movement and spacing the floor. It's clear for all to see that even with the exact same players this team is capable of play much better than it was and it started with Ball Movement and Spacing. This isn't to say the Knicks are suddenly a great team, but the point is that they are not and should never have been as bad as they started off looking.

You can't say the roster sucks and therefor the team can't win and then all of a sudden when the coach actually does the right thing with his team they win. CLEARLY this wasn't a case of the worst talent in the league but rather POOR coaching which had the team forgetting it's identity and making things much harder than they should've been. I don't think the roster is perfect and they do still need an improvement in talent, but now we need to put to bed this idea that the current roster can't pay well enough to win and that the coach should get a pass cuz he's saddled with a bad roster. IMO that was always BS and now we can see that they can play much better.

nixluva wrote:Well what I would say is that the way this team has played the last 2 games is much more like last year and what we expected to see. It took WAY too long for Woody to finally acknowledge that this team needed to play the way it did last year. The Ball Movement, Floor spacing with Melo in the post is EXACTLY what they did last year. Then you can run some of the other plays this team ran successfully like the Horns, Triple Screen and Scissors plays. All of it was better than the garbage he allowed all year. They still need work, but it's a great example of how important it is for a coach to make it clear what the players should be doing.

I still can't get over how Woody chafed at the idea that Ball Movement was the source of the issues with the losing and now we see 2 games with GREAT Ball Movement and the team looks 1000x better. Dude basically dropped the ball and caused his team to flounder. It wasn't that he had a bad roster, but that he failed to coach them in the right direction. You have to drill Ball Movement and spacing into your teams head until it's second nature. Now we see Ball Movement drills before a game??? NO new players, just a change in approach that was obvious to most except Woody.

We also benefitted from not having to face a quality PG. Felton, to his credit, has also been solid.

BigDaddyG wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well what I would say is that the way this team has played the last 2 games is much more like last year and what we expected to see. It took WAY too long for Woody to finally acknowledge that this team needed to play the way it did last year. The Ball Movement, Floor spacing with Melo in the post is EXACTLY what they did last year. Then you can run some of the other plays this team ran successfully like the Horns, Triple Screen and Scissors plays. All of it was better than the garbage he allowed all year. They still need work, but it's a great example of how important it is for a coach to make it clear what the players should be doing.

I still can't get over how Woody chafed at the idea that Ball Movement was the source of the issues with the losing and now we see 2 games with GREAT Ball Movement and the team looks 1000x better. Dude basically dropped the ball and caused his team to flounder. It wasn't that he had a bad roster, but that he failed to coach them in the right direction. You have to drill Ball Movement and spacing into your teams head until it's second nature. Now we see Ball Movement drills before a game??? NO new players, just a change in approach that was obvious to most except Woody.

We also benefitted from not having to face a quality PG. Felton, to his credit, has also been solid.

misterearl wrote:Just The Facts

nixluva - team cohesion requires months of building trust, sometimes years

The Knicks turned over 40 per cent of the roster

Our primary catalyst, Ray Felton has been playing injured. Our other guards struggle to defend.

Carmelo feels obligated to lead as he thinks a scorer should lead, by scoring. He is seeing things different. 10 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice look for him.

Knicks players are getting acquainted with new matchups and new rotations from new opponents

Michael Carter Williams would look positively beautiful in orange and blue.

It is a long season.

Tho these are facts they have NOTHING to do with the fact that this team wasn't running the right offense all year. You talk like we have a bunch of strangers on the floor, no film of last year, a new coach or something. I can literally show you the stills from games we lost this year and show you that the team wasn't using the same Spread Offense we killed teams with last year. That's the biggest reason for the failure. Then you also have rotations and defense, but most of all it's been the return of the Spread floor, ball swinging, Melo in the post style from last year. Woody didn't make that the core of the offensive attack this year and it was obvious.

Don't use the new players as an excuse cuz that's not what the problem was. That's the reason we have Pre Camp, Training Camp and Preseason to drill the offense and get the ball movement and spacing right. simply NO EXCUSE for how bad it was until now.

nixluva wrote:

misterearl wrote:Just The Facts

nixluva - team cohesion requires months of building trust, sometimes years

The Knicks turned over 40 per cent of the roster

Our primary catalyst, Ray Felton has been playing injured. Our other guards struggle to defend.

Carmelo feels obligated to lead as he thinks a scorer should lead, by scoring. He is seeing things different. 10 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice look for him.

Knicks players are getting acquainted with new matchups and new rotations from new opponents

Michael Carter Williams would look positively beautiful in orange and blue.

It is a long season.

Tho these are facts they have NOTHING to do with the fact that this team wasn't running the right offense all year. You talk like we have a bunch of strangers on the floor, no film of last year, a new coach or something. I can literally show you the stills from games we lost this year and show you that the team wasn't using the same Spread Offense we killed teams with last year. That's the biggest reason for the failure. Then you also have rotations and defense, but most of all it's been the return of the Spread floor, ball swinging, Melo in the post style from last year. Woody didn't make that the core of the offensive attack this year and it was obvious.

Don't use the new players as an excuse cuz that's not what the problem was. That's the reason we have Pre Camp, Training Camp and Preseason to drill the offense and get the ball movement and spacing right. simply NO EXCUSE for how bad it was until now.

misterearl wrote:Yawn

Knicks win.

Go for three.

REAL ADULT. You were wrong and now you can't be a man and admit it. You went after me relentlessly saying this was about the roster and couldn't be helped. You made it sound like this team was doomed to bad BB because of the roster and that there was nothing WOody could do. I've been saying the same thing since day one and now that Woody finally makes a change it all comes together.

We know the team needs upgrades, but that had nothing to do with all the losing. The team should not have lost so many games and looked so lost. That is a COACHING thing. The team still needs a better PG, but that shouldn't stop them from better execution, spacing and ball movement. That was Woody's fault. He didn't make that a priority and now that he has the team is getting it and playing much better. No new players, just a move back to the scheme that worked for this team. This is how they have to play. Woody forgot that somehow.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

misterearl wrote:Just The Facts

nixluva - team cohesion requires months of building trust, sometimes years

The Knicks turned over 40 per cent of the roster

Our primary catalyst, Ray Felton has been playing injured. Our other guards struggle to defend.

Carmelo feels obligated to lead as he thinks a scorer should lead, by scoring. He is seeing things different. 10 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice look for him.

Knicks players are getting acquainted with new matchups and new rotations from new opponents

Michael Carter Williams would look positively beautiful in orange and blue.

It is a long season.

Tho these are facts they have NOTHING to do with the fact that this team wasn't running the right offense all year. You talk like we have a bunch of strangers on the floor, no film of last year, a new coach or something. I can literally show you the stills from games we lost this year and show you that the team wasn't using the same Spread Offense we killed teams with last year. That's the biggest reason for the failure. Then you also have rotations and defense, but most of all it's been the return of the Spread floor, ball swinging, Melo in the post style from last year. Woody didn't make that the core of the offensive attack this year and it was obvious.

Don't use the new players as an excuse cuz that's not what the problem was. That's the reason we have Pre Camp, Training Camp and Preseason to drill the offense and get the ball movement and spacing right. simply NO EXCUSE for how bad it was until now.

Where were these complaints when the Knicks came out of training camp with D'Antoni every year and lost a ton of games. D'Antoni had the same roster except for Darko, and the two draft picks and the team went 1-9. At that time I think the players weren't doing what d'antoni taught them according to you. You are trying to trash a coach that actually won a lot of games as a Knick coach. There are a lot of factors involved in the poor start and Woodson absolutely has to take some of the blame but this isn't a reset to say that the guy is a bad coach.

My point isn't that Woody can't win here. That would be stupid. My point is that he was very much responsible for the slow start. He had a ready made style and core of players from last year and he failed to do his job. You can't excuse the fact that he never used his team in the same way that was most successful. ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS START WITH WHAT WORKED. Now the very second they went back to that all of a sudden you see the spark. In fact this team only seems to lose when WOody goes away from that style. In the Playoffs he went with a more ISO heavy style and it wasn't as effective. To start this year he abandoned the style and we saw what happened. SOON AS HE GOES BACK TO IT...

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

misterearl wrote:Just The Facts

nixluva - team cohesion requires months of building trust, sometimes years

The Knicks turned over 40 per cent of the roster

Our primary catalyst, Ray Felton has been playing injured. Our other guards struggle to defend.

Carmelo feels obligated to lead as he thinks a scorer should lead, by scoring. He is seeing things different. 10 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice look for him.

Knicks players are getting acquainted with new matchups and new rotations from new opponents

Michael Carter Williams would look positively beautiful in orange and blue.

It is a long season.

Tho these are facts they have NOTHING to do with the fact that this team wasn't running the right offense all year. You talk like we have a bunch of strangers on the floor, no film of last year, a new coach or something. I can literally show you the stills from games we lost this year and show you that the team wasn't using the same Spread Offense we killed teams with last year. That's the biggest reason for the failure. Then you also have rotations and defense, but most of all it's been the return of the Spread floor, ball swinging, Melo in the post style from last year. Woody didn't make that the core of the offensive attack this year and it was obvious.

Don't use the new players as an excuse cuz that's not what the problem was. That's the reason we have Pre Camp, Training Camp and Preseason to drill the offense and get the ball movement and spacing right. simply NO EXCUSE for how bad it was until now.

Where were these complaints when the Knicks came out of training camp with D'Antoni every year and lost a ton of games. D'Antoni had the same roster except for Darko, and the two draft picks and the team went 1-9. At that time I think the players weren't doing what d'antoni taught them according to you. You are trying to trash a coach that actually won a lot of games as a Knick coach. There are a lot of factors involved in the poor start and Woodson absolutely has to take some of the blame but this isn't a reset to say that the guy is a bad coach.

I don't want to drag this into another round of MDA talk. I've more than made my point regarding MDA and IMO MDA's time here was NOTHING like the relative stability Woody has had. Not to mention that Woody didn't get beat down like MDA did for years before he took over. Woody got a roster you can win with. Woody took over a roster with talent and a pouting Melo. When Melo decided to give MAX effort everything changed even tho nothing change from a tactical standpoint. They were winning before Melo came back. He comes back and drags the team down, pouts and we lose. MDA leaves, NO Practice or new strategy and suddenly Melo is bursting with energy and team wins! NOTHING Woody did on day one was responsible for the explosion we saw. You can disagree but the facts are clear. MDA is just fine with his new team. This is about Woody and the Knicks.

My point isn't that Woody can't win here. That would be stupid. My point is that he was very much responsible for the slow start. He had a ready made style and core of players from last year and he failed to do his job. You can't excuse the fact that he never used his team in the same way that was most successful. ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS START WITH WHAT WORKED. Now the very second they went back to that all of a sudden you see the spark. In fact this team only seems to lose when WOody goes away from that style. In the Playoffs he went with a more ISO heavy style and it wasn't as effective. To start this year he abandoned the style and we saw what happened. SOON AS HE GOES BACK TO IT...

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

misterearl wrote:Just The Facts

nixluva - team cohesion requires months of building trust, sometimes years

The Knicks turned over 40 per cent of the roster

Our primary catalyst, Ray Felton has been playing injured. Our other guards struggle to defend.

Carmelo feels obligated to lead as he thinks a scorer should lead, by scoring. He is seeing things different. 10 rebounds and 4 assists is a nice look for him.

Knicks players are getting acquainted with new matchups and new rotations from new opponents

Michael Carter Williams would look positively beautiful in orange and blue.

It is a long season.

Tho these are facts they have NOTHING to do with the fact that this team wasn't running the right offense all year. You talk like we have a bunch of strangers on the floor, no film of last year, a new coach or something. I can literally show you the stills from games we lost this year and show you that the team wasn't using the same Spread Offense we killed teams with last year. That's the biggest reason for the failure. Then you also have rotations and defense, but most of all it's been the return of the Spread floor, ball swinging, Melo in the post style from last year. Woody didn't make that the core of the offensive attack this year and it was obvious.

Don't use the new players as an excuse cuz that's not what the problem was. That's the reason we have Pre Camp, Training Camp and Preseason to drill the offense and get the ball movement and spacing right. simply NO EXCUSE for how bad it was until now.

Where were these complaints when the Knicks came out of training camp with D'Antoni every year and lost a ton of games. D'Antoni had the same roster except for Darko, and the two draft picks and the team went 1-9. At that time I think the players weren't doing what d'antoni taught them according to you. You are trying to trash a coach that actually won a lot of games as a Knick coach. There are a lot of factors involved in the poor start and Woodson absolutely has to take some of the blame but this isn't a reset to say that the guy is a bad coach.

I don't want to drag this into another round of MDA talk. I've more than made my point regarding MDA and IMO MDA's time here was NOTHING like the relative stability Woody has had. Not to mention that Woody didn't get beat down like MDA did for years before he took over. Woody got a roster you can win with. Woody took over a roster with talent and a pouting Melo. When Melo decided to give MAX effort everything changed even tho nothing change from a tactical standpoint. They were winning before Melo came back. He comes back and drags the team down, pouts and we lose. MDA leaves, NO Practice or new strategy and suddenly Melo is bursting with energy and team wins! NOTHING Woody did on day one was responsible for the explosion we saw. You can disagree but the facts are clear. MDA is just fine with his new team. This is about Woody and the Knicks.

My point isn't that Woody can't win here. That would be stupid. My point is that he was very much responsible for the slow start. He had a ready made style and core of players from last year and he failed to do his job. You can't excuse the fact that he never used his team in the same way that was most successful. ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS START WITH WHAT WORKED. Now the very second they went back to that all of a sudden you see the spark. In fact this team only seems to lose when WOody goes away from that style. In the Playoffs he went with a more ISO heavy style and it wasn't as effective. To start this year he abandoned the style and we saw what happened. SOON AS HE GOES BACK TO IT...

In regards to Woodson getting a roster that he could win with why didn't d'antoni win with it? D'Antoni has a philosophy/system that he goes with regardless of the players he has. It didn't work with that roster and the way he was using Melo. When Woodson took over the players, not just melo, came out and said things were different. They didn't go back to melo playing point forward tonight. They held a team to under 85 points. They moved the ball on offense. Maybe that is something stressed by d'antoni but do you think other coaches don't stress ball movement?
Here is a question for you. When Grunwald was fired and Steve Mills hired on the eve of training camp what did you think?
I thought oh ish. Anything can happen and expect the worse. What has happened? Chris Smith was given a roster spot. Amare was given 9 minutes every other night. KMart was restricted in minutes and playing back to back games even with the Tyson injury. JR appeared to be guaranteed a starting job and Shump was on the trading block and appeared to be the scapegoat at times.

The simple fact remains that this team didn't have to come out playing so poorly. My contention is that Woody wasn't resolute in what he wanted to do. He wanted to go away from what they did last year and that is clear from how he chose to play. No more Felton and Prigs. No more spread offense. It's not hard to see what Woody was doing wrong. Now that he's gone back to more of a style similar to that Spread offense things are better. More ball movement which involves more players and they can get a feel and gain confidence. It's really about Woody more than anything else. The idea that the Knicks have been working on Ball Movement all the time contradicts what we have seen all season. If that's the focus of your offense then it would show in games and it's odd that all of a sudden they decided to drill it before the game. They haven't been doing that until now.