Something like:

Ray
TH Jr
Shump
Melo
Tyson

Just asking.

Leaving out the rest of the tail end of the bench, I don't see too much in the way of consistent speed runners and finishers on the roster.
How long would you realistically be able to leave a running team on the floor?

jrodmc wrote:Just out of curiosity, given the personnel we have now, what would our small, running line up look like?

Something like:

Ray
TH Jr
Shump
Melo
Tyson

Just asking.

Leaving out the rest of the tail end of the bench, I don't see too much in the way of consistent speed runners and finishers on the roster.
How long would you realistically be able to leave a running team on the floor?

We can start Artest with CA at PF and that should be plenty fast. We dont have athletic ball-handlers--Id barely call Felton one. But we can play fast enough with Melo at 4 and either JR at SF or Artest.

Again, forgetting about the yoots at the end of the bench, who's the five that's going to run for extended periods of time, and what good is up tempo if you have to call timeout for subs every 5 minutes?

Just asking.

jrodmc wrote:We have players with minute restrictions.

Again, forgetting about the yoots at the end of the bench, who's the five that's going to run for extended periods of time, and what good is up tempo if you have to call timeout for subs every 5 minutes?

Just asking.

Thus why we're flawed.

We have to execute well enough in the half court set and hit a high enough percentage of 3s to win games. Rebounding is clearly a weakness, but we might as well pick up the pace and get easier buckets if we're going to get trashed on the boards every night.

Felton, Shump, MWP, Melo, Chandler could easily run if Woody wanted to.

Doesn't look like Woody's going in that direction based on the preseason. More forced Bargnani ISO and pick and rolls that were more miss than hit. More feed the ball to Melo and space out.

In the preseason, the 2nd units brought way more energy on both offense and defense, and it was no coincidence that they had easy buckets in transition to show for it.

I don't see Bargnani in the starting lineup working based on his early play. He's just too slow and lethargic.

Melo at the 4 should be the preferred lineup.

But here's the problem, MDA always had 2 guys behind the base line 3 point arc, weather it was gallo, chandler, novak, feilds, whoever, so when felton/lin would penetrate, they had so many options..left or right wing 3, elbow 3, or the pg could go straight up or dish it to your big for a easy dunk/layup..It was so effective the the WSJ wrote an article on how deadly it was/is..

But woodson runs it half ass, cause melo would never sit in the corner like a spot up shooter, despite shooting close to 40% from 3.

If you look at the way MDA wanted melo to play point fwd, which required melo to bring the ball up, make quick decisions, move the ball and not take the first available shot, but the best available shot.

Now Melo will walk the ball up court, maybe go around a high screen and hoist up a 3, or pass the ball then postion himself for a iso/post up, wait for the double team and swing the ball, but good defensive teams will play the passing lanes or make in game adjustemnts.

Clean wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Clean wrote:

jrodmc wrote:We have players with minute restrictions.

Again, forgetting about the yoots at the end of the bench, who's the five that's going to run for extended periods of time, and what good is up tempo if you have to call timeout for subs every 5 minutes?

Just asking.

You do know you don't have to call a timeout to sub players right?

You do know the clock has to be stopped and the ball is dead to sub players right? And if someone is winded, will that only magically happen during a foul or when the ball goes out of bounds?

up tempo and dead ball don't normally go together, do they?

You are using a straw man argument. Just because a team is uptempo does not mean there will never be a dead ball ever again. Fouls and out of bounds calls just don't stop because one team decides to run the basketball. There are and have always been many ways that dead balls can occur. You also don't have to wait until a person tells you they are winded. This was where the whole depth and keep players minutes lower thing comes in. If you want to watch how an uptempo team with depth plays watch some tapes on the nuggets team from 2 years ago.

Not saying dead balls will never occur, but was the Denver team from two years ago planning on them? If you are a successful up tempo team, you have a starting 5 that's at least 3/5ths young horses like Lawson, Affalo and Gallo (Look ma, I'm saying something good about Gallo! No hands!) Given that starting 5 included Old Harrington and Miller, but what's our starting 3 to run?

I'm not straw manning, I just don't honestly see how we run up tempo with the folks we have. I haven't seen a suggestion yet that makes a whole lot of sense? MWP running? That's going to make us up tempo?

You say we have too many good players and then list two whole players who can push the ball. Ray and Shump. What else you got?

Don't misunderstand, I would love to run consistently. I just don't see it happening with this squad. I truly hope I'm wrong.

jrodmc wrote:Just out of curiosity, given the personnel we have now, what would our small, running line up look like?

Something like:

Ray
TH Jr
Shump
Melo
Tyson

Just asking.

Leaving out the rest of the tail end of the bench, I don't see too much in the way of consistent speed runners and finishers on the roster.
How long would you realistically be able to leave a running team on the floor?

Problem is that line-up is missing our most athletic player- JR. Without him we can't play as effectively using that strategy. I also don't think any line-up with Tyson in it is small ball because he's very lethargic and not particularly athletic. The problem with the Knicks is that literally all of our athleticism is at the SG spot and that's pretty much it. We really need an athletic point guard to break down defenses. Felton is speedy enough, but he doesn't exactly tear through the defense.

Woodson also doesn't want to be short handed in the playoffs again. Half court ball is easier on our vets over 82 games, and its what we'll be seeing in the playoffs for the most part. I'm guessing its why we signed Cole instead of Diogu, to be able to put on the floor another healthy big to spell Tyson. I would have preferred Diogu myself but I see why maybe Woodson would want Cole instead, to keep Chandler from having another flu season. Its also why Melo will probably spend more time at the 3 this season.

We can still run. When Murry gets some PT, THJ gets more seasoning, I think we'll see a pretty fast and effective second unit. I would leave Stat on the bench when they do run, bring him in to spell whoever is playing the 4, let him work on his post moves. I'm impressed with how much he has picked up in such a short time.

NardDogNation wrote:I know that a bunch of people will have their own interpretation about this but I think the most obvious issue for us is that we are a small ball team that does not run the ball. In all the years of the NBA, I can not remember a single team that chooses to give up height and girth on a consistent basis, without capitalizing on their obvious speed advantage. Part of the problem is that we are a poor rebounding team but I think the major issue is that we don't have a PG capable of pushing the tempo and/or breaking down defenses. That being said, we need to figure out a way to upgrade our PG position with a PG that can do this on a nightly basis because it is pretty clear that we are at our best with Carmelo at the 4 and Raymond Felton in the starting lineup.

the overarching issue is the roster remains clumsy. you can pinpoint just about anything you wish because there is so much that is wrong.

felton is not an orchestrator and a lousy defender. because he needs prigioni or kidd or this season beno out there you are already compromised in the backcourt on defense, while you displace the one player that should be given a lot of playing time in the backcourt in iman shumpert. that said, felton is a little bit more effective when allowed to push the ball.

however

melo does not like to run-- he still is not in supreme shape (will he ever be?) to be able to be on a running team so that slows down the entire offense to a marbury-like crawl. he is also a chronically selfish player and inefficient scorer. this exhausts teammates and makes them gun shy-- if they have a conscience, unlike jr smith. then there's melo getting overwhelmed on defense by bigger 4s like west, and his inability to stay in front of playoff-caliber 3s like george or lebron.

bargnani is little help in shoring up weaknesses-- he has weaknesses of his own.
artest we shall see.

this team could easily implode if woodson does not figure it out.