In the past, I had defended the Amar'e signing as a necessary evil. Walsh completely gutted this team and its assets for a shot at LeBron, which left us no other option but the Amar'e Stoudemire's of the world. And then I started looking at some of the moves that happened that offseason and can't help but think we might've been better off pursuing them. Teams were hemorrhaging talent left and right:

1.) Al Jefferson to the the Jazz for Kostas Koufos and two future first round picks. The Wolves inevitably signed Darko Milicic and we could've easily sign and traded him instead for Al Jefferson.

2.) Kirk Hinrich and the 17th pick to the Wizards for a future 2nd round pick. That 17th pick was turned into Kevin Seraphin, a pretty impressive bench player but Eric Bledsoe was still available at 18th. We should've made that deal especially when you consider that there was not much of a difference between Raymond Felton and Kirk Hinrich, in terms of salary and talent.

3.) Ramon Sessions and Ryan Hollins for Delonte West and Sebastian Teflair aka a salary dump. We might've been able to flip Eddy Curry for Ramon Sessions, Ryan Hollins and Corey Brewer.

4.)Michael Beasley to the Wolves for a 2011 second round pick. Beasley's a headache but would've been worth it at that price tag.

5.) Daequan Cook and the 18th pick to the Thunder for the 31st pick in the draft. A bit difficult because of how valuable a 2nd round pick that high is but we could've matched it with a future 1st rounder.

6.) Cash considerations from the Mavs to the Grizzlies for the 25th pick.

Other available trades that didn't happen:

7.) Elton Brand and the no.2 pick (Evan Turner) for cap space.

Other trades that should've happened:

8.)David Lee sign-and-trade to the Warriors for the 6th pick. The Warriors clearly wanted David Lee and I don't think a lottery pick for an all-star is unreasonable. I would've selected Greg Monroe then and now but Ekpe Udoh is better than anything we did eventually get for Lee.

The point is that we had an opportunity to get exceptionally young, deep and talented during that offseason, which should've been better than a $20 million bench warmer.

Amar'e missing playoff games in his 1st 2 years wasn't a knee thing it was a freak tweak of his back on a dunk attempt and cutting his hand. When he was healthy he showed just how good he could be and he pushed himself to come back in the playoffs despite the back pain.

Amar'e stats in playoff series:
gm 1 vs BOS - 28/11
tweaks back
gm 2 4/5
gm 3 7/3
gm 4 19/12

Then in his 2nd season he played in 47 of the 66 lockout shortened season games. He played in 4 of the 5 playoff games and was actually pretty good in 4 of those games.

gm 1 vs MIA - 9/5
gm 2 18/7
gm 3 out cut hand
gm 4 20/10
gm 5 14/4

This last playoff was the only time he was really hampered by his knee problems. If he had more time to get back in game shape he might have actually been helpful. I think as fans we tend to overstate the failings of Amar'e. He's had some crazy bad luck and some stupid mistakes. If he can finally be healthy going into a playoff series this time, we may yet see him contribute to a playoff series win. I wouldn't count him out. It's up to Woody to find a way to keep him healthy this time. I think they're taking the right approach and hopefully it works.

nixluva wrote:When we traded for Amar'e he had just come off an 82 game season about 23/9 in about 35 mpg. His 1st year in NY he was 78 games 25/8 but about 37 mpg. We didn't realize it was fools gold as MDA wore him out. I almost can't blame him tho considering all the losing we had done before finally adding an All Star and actually having a winning record for a change. Coaches get so desperate to win that they almost don't care about the well being of the players. MDA isn't the only one to do this as some seem to think.

Amar'e missing playoff games in his 1st 2 years wasn't a knee thing it was a freak tweak of his back on a dunk attempt and cutting his hand. When he was healthy he showed just how good he could be and he pushed himself to come back in the playoffs despite the back pain.

Amar'e stats in playoff series:
gm 1 vs BOS - 28/11
tweaks back
gm 2 4/5
gm 3 7/3
gm 4 19/12

Then in his 2nd season he played in 47 of the 66 lockout shortened season games. He played in 4 of the 5 playoff games and was actually pretty good in 4 of those games.

gm 1 vs MIA - 9/5
gm 2 18/7
gm 3 out cut hand
gm 4 20/10
gm 5 14/4

This last playoff was the only time he was really hampered by his knee problems. If he had more time to get back in game shape he might have actually been helpful. I think as fans we tend to overstate the failings of Amar'e. He's had some crazy bad luck and some stupid mistakes. If he can finally be healthy going into a playoff series this time, we may yet see him contribute to a playoff series win. I wouldn't count him out. It's up to Woody to find a way to keep him healthy this time. I think they're taking the right approach and hopefully it works.

You raise some pretty good points but was there that significant a difference in his usage between his last season with Phoenix and his first year with us? And yes, MDA may have worn him out in year 1 of his contract but what about year 2 and 3? I think it was pretty clear then and very apparent now that Amar'e was not going to be a good long term investment but was necessary to save face after the LeBron debacle. The biggest mistake we made wasn't signing him; it was the decision to backload his contract and/or not have a team option involved.

Harden?

Dwight?

I'm not really sure who we missed out on at this point because the major players went to Miami.

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:When we traded for Amar'e he had just come off an 82 game season about 23/9 in about 35 mpg. His 1st year in NY he was 78 games 25/8 but about 37 mpg. We didn't realize it was fools gold as MDA wore him out. I almost can't blame him tho considering all the losing we had done before finally adding an All Star and actually having a winning record for a change. Coaches get so desperate to win that they almost don't care about the well being of the players. MDA isn't the only one to do this as some seem to think.

Amar'e missing playoff games in his 1st 2 years wasn't a knee thing it was a freak tweak of his back on a dunk attempt and cutting his hand. When he was healthy he showed just how good he could be and he pushed himself to come back in the playoffs despite the back pain.

Amar'e stats in playoff series:
gm 1 vs BOS - 28/11
tweaks back
gm 2 4/5
gm 3 7/3
gm 4 19/12

Then in his 2nd season he played in 47 of the 66 lockout shortened season games. He played in 4 of the 5 playoff games and was actually pretty good in 4 of those games.

gm 1 vs MIA - 9/5
gm 2 18/7
gm 3 out cut hand
gm 4 20/10
gm 5 14/4

This last playoff was the only time he was really hampered by his knee problems. If he had more time to get back in game shape he might have actually been helpful. I think as fans we tend to overstate the failings of Amar'e. He's had some crazy bad luck and some stupid mistakes. If he can finally be healthy going into a playoff series this time, we may yet see him contribute to a playoff series win. I wouldn't count him out. It's up to Woody to find a way to keep him healthy this time. I think they're taking the right approach and hopefully it works.

You raise some pretty good points but was there that significant a difference in his usage between his last season with Phoenix and his first year with us? And MDA may have one him our in year 1 of his contract but what about year 2 and 3? I think it is pretty clear then and very apparent now that Amar'e was not going to be a good long term investment but was necessary to save face after the LeBron debacle. The biggest mistake we made wasn't signing him; it was the decision to backload his contract and/or not have a team option involved.

The only thing that was clear is that STAT had just played a full 82 plus playoffs and was carrying the Suns into the playoffs. Sure there was a risk but nothing at that time precluded the Knicks from taking a chance. Even his 1st year he was very effective. The knees really weren't the issue until last year so I don't think it can be argued that this is why it was a bad deal. If STAT doesn't tweak his back in the playoffs year 1 and slice his guans year 2 then we don't have the sense of wasted years. Only last year was a knee issue and even then it wasn't season or career ending like other Knick players have had. They cleaned out the knees not reconstructed them. No ACL or Achilles. Dude actually came back and played. He's been victim of poor timing and bad luck more than catastrophic injury.

I think people are overstating things a bit. If he can contribute this year and next it would all be worth it IMO cuz this is the best team we've had yet. Sure he's not superman anymore but he can still help a great deal.

You keep mentioning that his knees aren't the issue and yet he can't train during the offseason with Hakeem, can not partake in any of our practices and will not play in any of our preseason games. If his health really isn't the issue, why the need for the precautions?

OasisBU wrote:That young team Walsh built wasn't going to win here, and just imagine having Stat out consistently along with Gallo. Signing Amare was great, the contract was bad but the price was the price. It was not saving the Amnesty for him. But who would we have gotten that could co-exist with Melo and a very thin Frontcourt because we wouldn't have signed Chandler?

Harden?

Dwight?

I'm not really sure who we missed out on at this point because the major players went to Miami.

The $17 million we invested into Amare that offseason could've gone a long way toward getting the players you mentioned (e.g. Harden, Dwight, etc). Just for some perspective, we could've gotten some combination of Al Jefferson, Eric Bledsoe, the no.2 pick in the 2010 draft (Evan Turner/DeMarcus Cousins/Greg Monroe), Michael Beasley, Kirk Hinrich, Ramon Sessions, Grevis Vasquez and/or future draft picks. I don't think that is anything to scoff at. Remember that several superstars would be in play for the 2010/2011 season like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, etc. Any of those guys would've been better than our predicament today with Amar'e.

dk7th wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

OasisBU wrote:That young team Walsh built wasn't going to win here, and just imagine having Stat out consistently along with Gallo. Signing Amare was great, the contract was bad but the price was the price. It was not saving the Amnesty for him. But who would we have gotten that could co-exist with Melo and a very thin Frontcourt because we wouldn't have signed Chandler?

Harden?

Dwight?

I'm not really sure who we missed out on at this point because the major players went to Miami.

The $17 million we invested into Amare that offseason could've gone a long way toward getting the players you mentioned (e.g. Harden, Dwight, etc). Just for some perspective, we could've gotten some combination of Al Jefferson, Eric Bledsoe, the no.2 pick in the 2010 draft (Evan Turner/DeMarcus Cousins/Greg Monroe), Michael Beasley, Kirk Hinrich, Ramon Sessions, Grevis Vasquez and/or future draft picks. I don't think that is anything to scoff at. Remember that several superstars would be in play for the 2010/2011 season like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, etc. Any of those guys would've been better than our predicament today with Amar'e.

so you agree that it would have been better to rebuild slowly and not gone the lbj pursuit route. great.

so i guess that also means that, once we made a commitment to stoudemire, that acquiring melo would be a terrible mistake and that we should have waited for a better player to complement stoudemire?

Actually, no. Nothing like what you suggested. As a matter of fact, not even close.

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:When we traded for Amar'e he had just come off an 82 game season about 23/9 in about 35 mpg. His 1st year in NY he was 78 games 25/8 but about 37 mpg. We didn't realize it was fools gold as MDA wore him out. I almost can't blame him tho considering all the losing we had done before finally adding an All Star and actually having a winning record for a change. Coaches get so desperate to win that they almost don't care about the well being of the players. MDA isn't the only one to do this as some seem to think.

Amar'e missing playoff games in his 1st 2 years wasn't a knee thing it was a freak tweak of his back on a dunk attempt and cutting his hand. When he was healthy he showed just how good he could be and he pushed himself to come back in the playoffs despite the back pain.

Amar'e stats in playoff series:
gm 1 vs BOS - 28/11
tweaks back
gm 2 4/5
gm 3 7/3
gm 4 19/12

Then in his 2nd season he played in 47 of the 66 lockout shortened season games. He played in 4 of the 5 playoff games and was actually pretty good in 4 of those games.

gm 1 vs MIA - 9/5
gm 2 18/7
gm 3 out cut hand
gm 4 20/10
gm 5 14/4

This last playoff was the only time he was really hampered by his knee problems. If he had more time to get back in game shape he might have actually been helpful. I think as fans we tend to overstate the failings of Amar'e. He's had some crazy bad luck and some stupid mistakes. If he can finally be healthy going into a playoff series this time, we may yet see him contribute to a playoff series win. I wouldn't count him out. It's up to Woody to find a way to keep him healthy this time. I think they're taking the right approach and hopefully it works.

You raise some pretty good points but was there that significant a difference in his usage between his last season with Phoenix and his first year with us? And MDA may have one him our in year 1 of his contract but what about year 2 and 3? I think it is pretty clear then and very apparent now that Amar'e was not going to be a good long term investment but was necessary to save face after the LeBron debacle. The biggest mistake we made wasn't signing him; it was the decision to backload his contract and/or not have a team option involved.

The only thing that was clear is that STAT had just played a full 82 plus playoffs and was carrying the Suns into the playoffs. Sure there was a risk but nothing at that time precluded the Knicks from taking a chance. Even his 1st year he was very effective. The knees really weren't the issue until last year so I don't think it can be argued that this is why it was a bad deal. If STAT doesn't tweak his back in the playoffs year 1 and slice his guans year 2 then we don't have the sense of wasted years. Only last year was a knee issue and even then it wasn't season or career ending like other Knick players have had. They cleaned out the knees not reconstructed them. No ACL or Achilles. Dude actually came back and played. He's been victim of poor timing and bad luck more than catastrophic injury.

I think people are overstating things a bit. If he can contribute this year and next it would all be worth it IMO cuz this is the best team we've had yet. Sure he's not superman anymore but he can still help a great deal.

You keep mentioning that his knees aren't the issue and yet he can't train during the offseason with Hakeem, can not partake in any of our practices and will not play in any of our preseason games. If his health really isn't the issue, why the need for the precautions?

I'm just laying out the facts. I never said the knees weren't an issue at all. Just making it clear that he played the 1st 2 years and was available for the playoffs. His problems in those 2 post seasons weren't due to his knees!!! The Back in yr 1 and the hand in yr 2. Last yr it was the knees but he did come back. There just wasn't enough time to get him fully back. It's not out of the question that the precautions they're taking won't actually work. If they take it easy over the course of the season we know that he can still ballout for stretches of time. We just need to get him to the playoffs healthy. With such a deep team that should be doable.

As a fan of this team and of Amar'e, I hope you're right. I just don't think the odds are stacked in his favor given his injury history.

nixluva wrote:I think they were close last year but when that 2nd knee needed work it really was at the worst time. Just far enough in the season to put his return well into the playoffs rather than before the playoffs so he could get rehabbed and back to full form. He was never able to make that full transition.

but note that no one said he couldn't play after he returned he was moving well as he did before the 2nd knee surgery. Both of them weren't major surgeries. It wasn't an ACL or another Micro Fracture surgery. Many NBA players eventually have to have a knee cleaned out after years of hard playing. It's not a career ending issue. We have to hope that not being active this summer, plus no pre season pounding will allow his body to heal more fully. They had him doing pool work this time and I think there's a chance this approach can work. It's not that hard to imagine. Doctors recommend low impact training for old guys like me. Think about it. I can still play at 48 yrs old, if I don't push it too long. So I just go for short spurts with my sons. However, if I was to go hard and long I would eventually have some real problems with my knees. I don't do high impact exercise and it really makes a difference. I would assume the same for STAT who is 30. No bac2bacs, limited minutes and limited practice should all help. We'll see.

I agree but I also think that we should not make Amare's game a priority. We need to get the player who we think will be in good shape in the playoffs the most playing time and if Amare can contribute so be it but I wouldn't count on it. I believe that there are things about Amare that the Knicks brass ain't telling us.

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:When we traded for Amar'e he had just come off an 82 game season about 23/9 in about 35 mpg. His 1st year in NY he was 78 games 25/8 but about 37 mpg. We didn't realize it was fools gold as MDA wore him out. I almost can't blame him tho considering all the losing we had done before finally adding an All Star and actually having a winning record for a change. Coaches get so desperate to win that they almost don't care about the well being of the players. MDA isn't the only one to do this as some seem to think.

Amar'e missing playoff games in his 1st 2 years wasn't a knee thing it was a freak tweak of his back on a dunk attempt and cutting his hand. When he was healthy he showed just how good he could be and he pushed himself to come back in the playoffs despite the back pain.

Amar'e stats in playoff series:
gm 1 vs BOS - 28/11
tweaks back
gm 2 4/5
gm 3 7/3
gm 4 19/12

Then in his 2nd season he played in 47 of the 66 lockout shortened season games. He played in 4 of the 5 playoff games and was actually pretty good in 4 of those games.

gm 1 vs MIA - 9/5
gm 2 18/7
gm 3 out cut hand
gm 4 20/10
gm 5 14/4

This last playoff was the only time he was really hampered by his knee problems. If he had more time to get back in game shape he might have actually been helpful. I think as fans we tend to overstate the failings of Amar'e. He's had some crazy bad luck and some stupid mistakes. If he can finally be healthy going into a playoff series this time, we may yet see him contribute to a playoff series win. I wouldn't count him out. It's up to Woody to find a way to keep him healthy this time. I think they're taking the right approach and hopefully it works.

You raise some pretty good points but was there that significant a difference in his usage between his last season with Phoenix and his first year with us? And yes, MDA may have worn him out in year 1 of his contract but what about year 2 and 3? I think it was pretty clear then and very apparent now that Amar'e was not going to be a good long term investment but was necessary to save face after the LeBron debacle. The biggest mistake we made wasn't signing him; it was the decision to backload his contract and/or not have a team option involved.

hahaha I made that point here more than once like 2weeks ago. Walsh should have know his history and protected the franchise.