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Peak rebuild: Is the NBA draft pick becoming overvalued?
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Nalod
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8/6/2013  3:05 PM
By Tom Ziller

Mark Cuban made a lot of interesting points in his blog post explaining why the Mavericks have ended up in a cycle of mediocrity (my description, not his), as covered by Jonathan Tjarks. The saddest lines in the post are the ones in which Dwight Howard answers a question about his career objective by stating that he "wants to be epic" and Cuban argues that's the greatest opening answer by any NBA player ever. (Even Gordon Hayward is over there laughing with his Bluetooth headset and wireless X-Box controller.)

What intrigued me was Cuban's declaration that perhaps too many teams are trying to pull off the Presti Plan, making it a more difficult rebuild option.

What I do know, at least what I think i have learned from my experiences in business is that when there is a rush for everyone to do the same thing, it becomes more difficult to do . Not easier. Harder. It also means that as other teams follow their lead, it creates opportunities for those who have followed a different path.

This is a core economic tenet and, basically, the lesson of Moneyball: the market inefficiency is where others aren't. Several teams are working on a Presti Plan rebuild: trade veteran talent and cap space for draft picks, get really bad for a couple of years to pick high and then pounce as your first young star approaches his second contract. Cuban sees too many teams going this direction. In theory, that would make the common asset those teams are chasing -- the first-round draft pick -- rise in price. Price is relative and these teams are supplying veteran talent to the market at higher rates so that makes veteran talent cheap. And that's where Mark Cuban and the Mavericks have found the market inefficiency, the "opportunity" he mentions.


Monta Ellis for a defensible $25 million over three years isn't quite what we're talking about, though, because Monta Ellis brings his own set of issues. Vince Carter for $9 million over three years in 2011? That's a perfect example of a contract available primarily because a certain number of teams are focused on developing their younger players and, yes, sucking. Devin Harris at a minimum contract? I know he's been anonymous lately but ... really?


But teams like the Hawks, Lakers and recently the Bucks have worked like the Mavericks have, trying to find cost-effective pieces to add. It all ends up working the same, though: these teams all want cheap veteran talent and the teams most likely to supply them are bad teams trying to get worse, or other competing teams who no longer decide the player's worth it. Ellis went from a playoff team to a team trying to get back into the playoffs. Harris' team was closer to the postseason than the Mavericks last season. Both the Bucks (Ellis) and Hawks (Harris) figure to be worse overall next season and Dallas benefits.

There are a lot of teams competing for a title next year, or at least ones clearly not trying to tank their draft position. The West is still deep -- you can only really count the Jazz, Kings and Suns out of playoff consideration -- and the East has about nine or 10 teams pushing for a playoff berth so the mass movement toward institutional tanking is overblown.

But here's the second piece of the equation Cuban is talking about with regard to the difficulty in following a Prestian-style rebuild: contending teams are putting a really high value on draft picks, too.

You rarely have teams selling their first-round picks for chump change at this point, even teams like Miami with packed rosters and luxury tax bills. The rookie scale contract is one of the most glorious things in the NBA for general managers. At worst, it's two years of minimal salary for a young player; at best, it's four years of dirt cheap production, followed by relative control over the player's second contract thanks to restricted free agency. A first-round pick is a huge asset for every team. So these days -- especially with the tougher luxury tax -- the value is sky high. The price of a pick is sky high.

Look at what Philadelphia paid for basically two picks, one which had manifested as Nerlens Noel, and the other of which will likely fall between No. 10 and No. 18 in 2014. For that, the Sixers paid a 23-year-old All-Star point guard on a reasonable multi-year contract. You pray you can draft a player who will be a 23-year-old All-Star. And the Sixers, because of that team's plan to improve, decided to go with the prayers rather than the proven entity. (There's also an issue of Holiday perhaps not being as good as he seems, but that's another discussion entirely.) There's no better example of how high the price of draft picks has gotten than the Sixers' draft day shenanigans.

Teams like the Mavericks get a free asset every single year, a first-round draft pick. With the value of those picks so high, it may actually behoove a team -- a team like the Mavericks -- to sell it ... which is precisely what the Mavericks have done every year since 2007. Dallas hasn't kept its own first-round pick beyond draft day since Maurice Ager in 2006.

This year, the Mavericks ended up packaging their pick (Kelly Olynyk), Jared Cunningham and their second-round pick (Mike Muscala) for a later first-round pick (Shane Larkin), cash and two future seconds. So it basically moved down to grab cash, an extra second and to lose Cunningham in the team's quixotic bid for cap space to sign Dwight Howard. That's, honestly, not great value. Neither were trades sending out Tyler Zeller and Jordan Hamilton the two previous years.

That's what will be interesting to see going forward: which team will make killer deals in sending out their picks. Will it be the Pelicans, who lost Noel and a 2014 first for Holiday? Will that start a trend in the other direction, where teams regularly use their annual draft picks to pick up talent? The NBA is a relatively free market, all told, and the supply, demand and price should get back toward stable when picks are properly valued. Are we there yet? If not, how long do teams like the Mavericks have to take advantage?

It's certainly an interesting subplot to the discussion of tanking.

Where do Mavs picks go?
The Mavericks technically haven't kept their own first-round pick since 2006 (Maurice Ager). What the heck happened to all of those picks?

2007: Petteri Koponen, a Finn who is unlikely to ever play in the NBA, was the choice with the Mavs' No. 30 pick. Dallas had traded it away back in 2007 in the Erick Dampier blockbuster.

2008: The pick at No. 23 was Ryan Anderson. It had already been sent to New Jersey in the Jason Kidd deal at the '08 trade deadline.

2009: The Mavericks kind-of, sort-of kept their own pick in 2009. They traded Byron Mullens (their No. 24 pick) for Oklahoma City's No. 25 pick (Rodrigue Beaubois) and a future second. So Beaubois is basically a Mavericks' kept first-round pick, more or less.

2010: The No. 27 pick, Jordan Crawford, had been included in the Jason Kidd deal. He ended up in Atlanta.

2011: The Mavericks' No. 26, Jordan Hamilton, was included in a really complicated deal on draft day. Dallas gave up Hamilton and a late 2011 second (which became the infamous Tanguy Ngombo) for, basically, Rudy Fernandez. This is the best example of a pick-for-talent deal.

2012: The Mavericks traded No. 17 (Tyler Zeller) for No. 24 (Jared Cunningham, yikes!) and two seconds (Bernard James and Jae Crowder). This shows Dallas leveraging the high value of firsts to grab more assets.

2013: Alright, here we go. The Mavs traded No. 13 (Kelly Olynyk) for No. 16 (Lucas Noguiera) and two 2014 seconds. The Mavs then traded Noguiera, Cunningham and their own second for No. 18 (Shane Larkin). So they moved down five picks to net one second and lose Cunningham.

What will the wacky Mavericks do next?!These deals aren't quite the same as what clubs like Miami seek. The Heat are looking for the best available players willing to show up for their limited contract slots. The Spurs have their own story because they actually had cap space this year, before forking it over to Tiago Splitter and Manu Ginobili.

AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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8/6/2013  3:07 PM
here's what cuban said on his blog:

You also have to pay attention to what is happening around you. In the almost 14 years since I bought the Mavs the league has gotten much smarter. There are fewer old school owners and GMs . THere is a much more analytical approach to everything. 10 years ago , or whenever it was that we were trading for Nick Van Exel , Avery Johnson and Raef Lafrentz, every team at least tried to see what kind of team they had and then proceeded to attempt to tank once they realized that it wasn’t going to work. That created unique trade opportunities . Some of which worked for us. Some that didn’t.

In today’s game it appears that the popular path to build a team is to put together a group of young players that you hope will develop to their full potential and potentially lose a lot of games so you have a chance to pick the next Kevin Durant, John Wall or Kyrie Irving or Blake Griffin et al.

Then you have to do it again at least one more season , if not more, because any one of those players is not enough to win a championship. They are all great players now, but it takes time for them to develop into great players. THen you have to put the right players around them in order to become a championship contending team. This may be the exact right approach for teams to take to build a championship. You never know until you know.

What I do know, at least what I think i have learned from my experiences in business is that when there is a rush for everyone to do the same thing, it becomes more difficult to do . Not easier. Harder. It also means that as other teams follow their lead, it creates opportunities for those who have followed a different path.

I see quite a few teams taking what appears to be the same approach to building a team. I can understand why they are taking this approach. In the current CBA the value of a player chosen in the draft can be considerable because of the defined contract terms. And if you put together some great young players, it is very enticing to want to keep those players together for a long period.

But I also know that even if you have the worst record in the NBA, you may not get the top pick and even if you do, there is a material chance you pick the wrong player , or it just happens to be a draft when there are not any IDENTIFIABLE superstar potential players at the top of the draft.

In other words , while it may be popular i think the quantity of teams taking the same approach makes it more difficult to build a team in this manner.

jrodmc
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8/6/2013  3:40 PM
I'm surprised an owner gets away with saying "tank". Then again, Cuban likes getting fined.


I always thought the ping pong balls were stupid. They should just leave the lottery as it was. You don't make the playoffs, you're just one more card in the fishbowl. Then there's less of a reason to tank.

Stupid league never approaches parity anyway. It's a mirage that floats in and out of focus once every 20 years.

franco12
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8/6/2013  6:17 PM
What does Cuban do when Dirk retires or is no longer effective?

And as far as veteran players being cheap - like Vince Carter - the dude is like 40 years old - there are a ton of players past their prime that seem to get 1 more contract that is stupid - see Marcus Camby, Jason Kidd, et al

IronWillGiroud
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8/6/2013  8:32 PM
cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,

The Will, check out the Official Home of Will's GameDay Art: http://tinyurl.com/thewillgameday
Vmart
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8/6/2013  10:08 PM
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,

He gave up on a possible replacement for his aging star. Olnyk seems like a player who is going to do similar things as Dirk.

callmened
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8/6/2013  11:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/6/2013  11:27 PM
i didnt real the article yet but i will. but as a former die-hard basketball fan, i believe that the draft is overated. these kids come out WAY too early and theyre not ready (physically or mentally). Guys like Kyrie and Anthony DAvis will be good but until theyre bodies develop they will be injury prone. and those are the GOOD picks. Anyone outside the lottery is simply a gamble. some will turn out good, most wont be ready until a good 3 yrs. thats why id rather invest in young talent (i.e. j. tyler = perfect example) vs a raw draft pick who most likely isnt ready. Im not saying lottery picks are to be sneezed at. If you have one, def use it...but if not, id pass.
Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
tkf
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8/7/2013  12:30 AM
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
NYKBocker
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8/7/2013  9:41 AM
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

I think Cuban is too smart for his own good. He always had good teams IMHO but lets see how he does it now with Dirk Diggler reaching his peak then quickly fading away. I think we will see a change similar to what we saw with Patrick.

Jmpasq
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8/7/2013  9:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/7/2013  9:42 AM
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?


The Mavericks right now seem to have zero plan or leadership. It looks like they gave up at the least a starting quality big by trading their pick this season. Their draft day trades to me made zero sense this year. i still cant believe that Maverick team won the title. That want a very good basketball team
Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
tkf
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8/7/2013  10:20 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

I think Cuban is too smart for his own good. He always had good teams IMHO but lets see how he does it now with Dirk Diggler reaching his peak then quickly fading away. I think we will see a change similar to what we saw with Patrick.

yep, and we can see the decline in the mavs over the years.. giving away picks almost for nothing has left the pantry a bit bare..... I don't understand how anyone can say the draft is overvalued..especially with the way some of these teams have given away picks...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/7/2013  10:22 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?


The Mavericks right now seem to have zero plan or leadership. It looks like they gave up at the least a starting quality big by trading their pick this season. Their draft day trades to me made zero sense this year. i still cant believe that Maverick team won the title. That want a very good basketball team

they had a good mix that year... and they won as a team. Dirk had a good series but not really super.. what dirk did, was come up big when needed, he was big when it mattered.. but remember chandler had a big rebounding game.. marion has one of those "marion of old" type games.. then Jason terry woke up... add in a little bit of JJ barea here and there and things just fit into place for them that year...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
CrushAlot
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8/7/2013  10:26 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?


The Mavericks right now seem to have zero plan or leadership. It looks like they gave up at the least a starting quality big by trading their pick this season. Their draft day trades to me made zero sense this year. i still cant believe that Maverick team won the title. That want a very good basketball team
They have good basketball people in that organization. Don Nelson Jr. and Rick Carlisle are pretty accomplished guys. Carlisle is a very good coach. However, I agree about their moves at the draft this year. Not sure what their plan is.
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NYKBocker
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8/7/2013  10:38 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?


The Mavericks right now seem to have zero plan or leadership. It looks like they gave up at the least a starting quality big by trading their pick this season. Their draft day trades to me made zero sense this year. i still cant believe that Maverick team won the title. That want a very good basketball team
They have good basketball people in that organization. Don Nelson Jr. and Rick Carlisle are pretty accomplished guys. Carlisle is a very good coach. However, I agree about their moves at the draft this year. Not sure what their plan is.

I think they are tanking this year.

NUPE
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8/7/2013  11:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/7/2013  11:16 AM
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

There are plenty of teams that have had TONS of early draft picks and simply have not been able to compete.

The Mavericks won because they had a plethora of good but not great players that they acquired through trades and free agency. Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

Looking at the last few champs, you will find that these teams relied heavily on FA's and trades rather than the draft...

The draft is great and young talent is important but this concept that building through the draft is the sole or primary way to win a title is erroneous.

tkf
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8/7/2013  11:17 AM
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

There are plenty of teams that have had TONS of early draft picks and simply have not been able to compete.

The Mavericks won because they had a plethora of good but not great players that they acquired through trades and free agency. Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

nah, there are not plenty of teams... I do think there are some teams, and that is to be expected... last team I can think of are the clippers, but that is because they often traded those picks so they would not have to pay them....

can you list the plenty of teams that had tons of early draft picks that didn't compete?

Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

this is so blatantly obvious how you are trying to slant history to support your point of view... of course no player does it by himself.. but dirk has been to the finals with two different mavs teams.. answer this? do the mavs win with no dirk?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
NUPE
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8/7/2013  11:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/7/2013  11:30 AM
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

There are plenty of teams that have had TONS of early draft picks and simply have not been able to compete.

The Mavericks won because they had a plethora of good but not great players that they acquired through trades and free agency. Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

nah, there are not plenty of teams... I do think there are some teams, and that is to be expected... last team I can think of are the clippers, but that is because they often traded those picks so they would not have to pay them....

can you list the plenty of teams that had tons of early draft picks that didn't compete?

Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

this is so blatantly obvious how you are trying to slant history to support your point of view... of course no player does it by himself.. but dirk has been to the finals with two different mavs teams.. answer this? do the mavs win with no dirk?

The Mav's don't win without Dirk. They also don't win if you take Chandler off the team. They also probably don't win if Terry is taken off the team. There were multiple players that contributed a lot to the Mav's team winning that title. It was far far far from a one man show.

Dirk has had many glaring failures in the playoffs which he was able to overcome with the help of very good players obtained through free agency and trades.

There are many teams that are regularly in the lottery and don't ever win a thing nor do they even become competitive in regards to actually obtaining a title. The draft is Russian Roulette at best.

Also, no clue why you can't engage in a debate without making accusations regarding "slanting history". As far as history is concerned, Dirk was widely considered to be a choker and second tier player for the majority of his career.... Now, you are propping him up and pretending there were not many many seasons when people claimed you can't win with Dirk as your best player and assorted other nonsense....

tkf
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8/7/2013  11:34 AM
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:
IronWillGiroud wrote:cuban is all about keeping it moving,

draft is great when it works but it's a giant swing for the fences,

cuban is all about being in control and finding value, being very practical, and he has 1 championship more than we do in the last 14 years,


and he did so with a HOF player he got in a draft day trade.. since then, he has traded away picks, and where has that left him now?

There are plenty of teams that have had TONS of early draft picks and simply have not been able to compete.

The Mavericks won because they had a plethora of good but not great players that they acquired through trades and free agency. Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

nah, there are not plenty of teams... I do think there are some teams, and that is to be expected... last team I can think of are the clippers, but that is because they often traded those picks so they would not have to pay them....

can you list the plenty of teams that had tons of early draft picks that didn't compete?

Dirk did not win by himself, not remotely. Dirk did not pull an Olajuwon or anything remotely close to that. Dirk had TONS of help primarily obtained through trades and free agency NOT the draft...

this is so blatantly obvious how you are trying to slant history to support your point of view... of course no player does it by himself.. but dirk has been to the finals with two different mavs teams.. answer this? do the mavs win with no dirk?

The Mav's don't win without Dirk. They also don't win if you take Chandler off the team. They also probably don't win if Terry is taken off the team. There were multiple players that contributed a lot to the Mav's team winning that title. It was far far far from a one man show.

Dirk has had many glaring failures in the playoffs which he was able to overcome with the help of very good players obtained through free agency and trades.

There are many teams that are regularly in the lottery and don't ever win a thing nor do they even become competitive in regards to actually obtaining a title. The draft is Russian Roulette at best.

Also, no clue why you can't engage in a debate without making accusations regarding "slanting history". As far as history is concerned, Dirk was widely considered to be a choker and second tier player for the majority of his career.... Now, you are propping him up and pretending there were not many many seasons when people claimed you can't win with Dirk as your best player and assorted other nonsense....

ok, so basically you are advocating winning as a team, right? so you would clearly understand why I hated the trade we made? pretty much all of them? can't have it both ways man..

Dirk was widely considered to be a choker and second tier player for the majority of his career....

nah, that again is you rewriting history.. but I guess you are going to tell me that after getting chandler, and terry that he no longer is a choker, that they carried dirk to a championship...

you see I am trying to get your angle here, but you are backing into a corner no matter which angle you take..

Bottom line.. the mavs teams over the past decade aren't the "MAVS" without dirk.... if you think otherwise, then there is nothing I can do for you.. but dirk went to the finals without tyson chandler.. He lost to another star player.. Dwayne wade and the heat.. and guess how the heat got Wade?

care to go down that road?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
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8/7/2013  11:57 AM
Dirk was a low risk pick (traded for Tractor Traylor) and he was developed.

I don't know that Cube is up to but he thought he could get some free agent to play with Dirk and nobody is biting.

The theme from what I take it is that if teams are enthralled with the "Presti" model they will pay a premium for picks and thus if they "overpay" then someone is able to get a bargain.

Teams can succeed without winning championships, and if you get close you have to make "win now" decisions. OKC had to do this at some point, but if they don't they can sustain "winning" a long by spreading it out.

I wonder what he thinks of Prokhorov spending insanity this year?

I guess we have to wait to see how they do!!!

NUPE
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Joined: 4/29/2012
Member: #4205

8/7/2013  12:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/7/2013  12:06 PM
tkf wrote:

ok, so basically you are advocating winning as a team, right? so you would clearly understand why I hated the trade we made? pretty much all of them? can't have it both ways man..

I don't see how the trade the Knick's made negates winning as a team. The Knick's are better today than they were immediately before the trade. The records shows that. The playoff appearances show that. Last season shows that. I don't know what else to tell you... We can agree to disagree on this as I am not interested in rehashing this debate, ever.

tkf wrote:Dirk was widely considered to be a choker and second tier player for the majority of his career....


nah, that again is you rewriting history.. but I guess you are going to tell me that after getting chandler, and terry that he no longer is a choker, that they carried dirk to a championship...

you see I am trying to get your angle here, but you are backing into a corner no matter which angle you take..

Bottom line.. the mavs teams over the past decade aren't the "MAVS" without dirk.... if you think otherwise, then there is nothing I can do for you.. but dirk went to the finals without tyson chandler.. He lost to another star player.. Dwayne wade and the heat.. and guess how the heat got Wade?

care to go down that road?

I am not trying to get any angle. Dirk was called a choker after losing to Mia in 06. Dirk was called a choker after losing in the first round to Golden State despite his team having the best record in the NBA. There were many claiming you could not win with Dirk as the main option. I never said I agreed with this but it was a common assertion. Of course, Dirk finally won a title with - A LOT OF HELP and one of the highest payrolls in the league that year - so now you are attempting to use Dirk as some proof of the efficacy of the draft over trades and free agency which is laughable since the Mav's team that won the title relied heavily on free agency and trades....

Peak rebuild: Is the NBA draft pick becoming overvalued?

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