Would I like to see the Knicks invest in and develop homegrown talent? Yes, but that's really not going to happen anytime soon if ever. The best I can hope for in the next couple of years is Melo somehow makes a real commitment to playing defense, Felton gets fed up and takes charge of every possession, JR stops playing high, Tyson grows some muscles, and Shump (who honestly is the only one who can raise his game) becomes a consistent offensive player. Oh, and Woodson actually holds players accountable and implements a more varied offense.

I just don't see Dolan, Grunwald, and Woodson going to a youth movement under their watch. It's not going to happen. And they're going to be here for awhile.

Knixkik wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Previous thread:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38105&page=16

Just to continue our discussion from the previous thread...

Thats just it, though. Health is a major factor. If you build a team free agent first with max free agents that already have years on them then injury and health are major factors that have to be calculated into the success of the team.

But in addition to this the Knicks still do not have enough firepower to make it past the second round, much less win a championship. Toad, isnt that what this is all about? Winning a championship? Do you really consider the ECF an accomplishment?

The Knicks need to tear down this team and rebuild it by targeting the draft first and then adding free agents. This is the only way to go if the goal is to build a multiple championship contending team.

Tearing it down doesn't guarantee winning a championship, in fact it doesn't even guarantee getting back to the 2nd round. If its so easy then why isn't every team doing it? It's not easy.

You're correct. It doesnt guarantee winning a championship. But there is a reason I keep bringing this up. Look at my comment from a previous thread below.

"Its not a theory, its a template. There is a template that every championship team, since the advent of the draft lottery, has followed. Yes it is not simple and yes there is probability involved but that is how it is done. You have to roll the dice. Right now the Knicks arent even part of the game.

This template works because it keeps the team under the cap, while giving the team a good probability of getting 3 good max level players, young player with bird rights included, who arent injury prone and still plenty of room under the cap for excellent roll players. What the knicks are doing now has 0 chance of success. Knicks are signing free agents first, killing their cap, they wont even have enough to resign the players they have this summer much less add help to this team, which i believe is something we all can agree the Knicks desperately need.

But then, what is success? If you think success is avoiding a sweep in the first round, then you should be smiling ear to ear. If you think success is getting to the first or second round of the playoffs only to get beaten badly, then congratulations, the Knicks are your team. If you think success is putting players out there who have no chance of winning a championship but will sell out every game and make a lot of money for ownership, then great, that is what you have. But if you think success is winning a championship with the possibility of winning multiple championships then you cannot expect the Knicks to do this while Dolan continues to build the team with an inordinate emphasis on the principle of building a team free agent first.

Building a team draft first with free agency afterwards does not guarantee that you will win a championship. But you know what? There is a greater chance of success. No team has ever won a championship building the way the Knicks are building. Every team that has won a championship since the 80's has had this template. Which do you think is the better course? (http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=41390&page=2)"

The reason I keep going back to this is not to hit you guys over the head by saying "see i told you so!", instead it is a demonstrative way of showing that the Knicks are built wrong. That is why they will never get out of the second round. Any idiot was able to see that the summer of Lebron was going to result in this. They need to retool by targeting the draft and then add free agents.

subzero0 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Previous thread:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38105&page=16

Just to continue our discussion from the previous thread...

Thats just it, though. Health is a major factor. If you build a team free agent first with max free agents that already have years on them then injury and health are major factors that have to be calculated into the success of the team.

But in addition to this the Knicks still do not have enough firepower to make it past the second round, much less win a championship. Toad, isnt that what this is all about? Winning a championship? Do you really consider the ECF an accomplishment?

The Knicks need to tear down this team and rebuild it by targeting the draft first and then adding free agents. This is the only way to go if the goal is to build a multiple championship contending team.

Tearing it down doesn't guarantee winning a championship, in fact it doesn't even guarantee getting back to the 2nd round. If its so easy then why isn't every team doing it? It's not easy.

You're correct. It doesnt guarantee winning a championship. But there is a reason I keep bringing this up. Look at my comment from a previous thread below.

"Its not a theory, its a template. There is a template that every championship team, since the advent of the draft lottery, has followed. Yes it is not simple and yes there is probability involved but that is how it is done. You have to roll the dice. Right now the Knicks arent even part of the game.
This template works because it keeps the team under the cap, while giving the team a good probability of getting 3 good max level players, young player with bird rights included, who arent injury prone and still plenty of room under the cap for excellent roll players. What the knicks are doing now has 0 chance of success. Knicks are signing free agents first, killing their cap, they wont even have enough to resign the players they have this summer much less add help to this team, which i believe is something we all can agree the Knicks desperately need.
But then, what is success? If you think success is avoiding a sweep in the first round, then you should be smiling ear to ear. If you think success is getting to the first or second round of the playoffs only to get beaten badly, then congratulations, the Knicks are your team. If you think success is putting players out there who have no chance of winning a championship but will sell out every game and make a lot of money for ownership, then great, that is what you have. But if you think success is winning a championship with the possibility of winning multiple championships then you cannot expect the Knicks to do this while Dolan continues to build the team with an inordinate emphasis on the principle of building a team free agent first.
Building a team draft first with free agency afterwards does not guarantee that you will win a championship. But you know what? There is a greater chance of success. No team has ever won a championship building the way the Knicks are building. Every team that has won a championship since the 80's has had this template. Which do you think is the better course? (http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=41390&page=2)"

The reason I keep going back to this is not to hit you guys over the head by saying "see i told you so!", instead it is a demonstrative way of showing that the Knicks are built wrong. That is why they will never get out of the second round. Any idiot was able to see that the summer of Lebron was going to result in this. They need to retool by targeting the draft and then add free agents.

I agree with this only because I don't like the leverage Melo will have with the franchise with his ability to OPT out and either walk for nothing or demand a multi year deal at 20-25m per year
His numbers would be good again if Woodson continues to call Iso's for him rather than finding ways to get the team involved
It could be a quick rebuild because we acquire as many assets as we can and compound that to the cap room for the FA class of 2015

Just say we could get decent value for Tyson and Melo with a couple 1st round picks, a bunch of 2nd round picks, trading exemption, and players like Mathews and Hickson who could get reshipped out for 1st round picks or early 2nd round picks

While we continue to sign COST FRIENDLY FA's, like target Bayless/Ridnour next season at 3m or so at a multi year deal
"Once a Knick, always a Knick" maybe we sign him a a cap friendly deal in 2015

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

Allanfan20 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

That's disrespectful to talk to basketballjones like that. I'm going to post a new thread in honor of defending him from your rudeness. Sendclosk.

Allanfan20 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

That's disrespectful to talk to basketballjones like that. I'm going to post a new thread in honor of defending him from your rudeness. Sendclosk.

Thank you.

Oh, you are absolutely welcome.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

That's disrespectful to talk to basketballjones like that. I'm going to post a new thread in honor of defending him from your rudeness. Sendclosk.

Thank you.

Oh, you are absolutely welcome.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

I think you should consider posting a thread thanking him

Allanfan20 wrote:

Red1976 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

That's disrespectful to talk to basketballjones like that. I'm going to post a new thread in honor of defending him from your rudeness. Sendclosk.

Thank you.

Oh, you are absolutely welcome.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

I think you should consider posting a thread thanking him

That's a great idea.

I could, but I think I will just re-iterate it here: Thank you Allanfan.

Allanfan20 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Red1976 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:I'm tempted to post a new thread responding to this response.

HAHA. I think you need to post a thread apologizing for this latest comment.

That's disrespectful to talk to basketballjones like that. I'm going to post a new thread in honor of defending him from your rudeness. Sendclosk.

Thank you.

Oh, you are absolutely welcome.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

I think you should consider posting a thread thanking him

That's a great idea.

I could, but I think I will just re-iterate it here: Thank you Allanfan.

Thank you for being grateful.

You're welcome.