Hersports85 wrote:Nothing more to say. Pointless. Let's let the season and Melo speak for themselves. I'm going to sit back and enjoy us playing at .750 and being the #1 seed in the east, while we're still waiting on 2 of our starters and continue to get better. Wonder what the excuse will be when we end the season on a good note and advance if the playoffs... ohh but the assets.

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..

Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?

Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Can you prove this with numbers?

that is why is said immeasurable.....

but sure I will give it a shot.. Jason kidd has two roles for us.. Backup PG and SG at times... he is doing extremely well playing both positions.. first of all controlling the offense and distributing the ball where it needs to be on top of that, very good defense.. kidd is avg 9ppg with 3 boards and 3 assists, and remember he is not even controlling the ball most of the time. like he used to back in the day... he is avg less than a turnover a game, so that pretty much coincides with the knicks low turnover average as a team.. Felton is avg 2.3 turnovers per game, carmelo is pretty much right at 3.. so kidd protects the ball a lot more, although his usage rate may be less than both guys, it would be interesting to compare their turnovers in relation to usage rate...

another thing.. Kidd is shooting 48% from the field and 50% from three.. the knicks are basically a swing the ball three point offense, kidd is killing it from there... I am sure all of this plays a part in the Knicks overall offensive efficiency as we are near the top..

add in his steals at almost 2 per game the way he controls the offense, his shooting, efficiency, his defense, and his numbers don't tell the whole story... his impact is huge, it goes way past his numbers.. he is a guy that gives you more than what the numbers tell you.. it has been that way his whole career.. go back and look back at the year kidd was runner up for MVP.. his numbers didn't blow you away, he barely shot 40% that year, but his impact with the nets was so evident, you could not ignore it, you see, kidd made guys like kenyon martin and kerry kittles, better, he made richard jefferson look like a real player.. those guys didn't make kidd, he made them....

I think he is doing that to a lesser extent now.....

If Kidd's effectiveness is immeasurable why do you get so upset when Melo fans say basically the same thing about Melo's play?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:Nothing more to say. Pointless. Let's let the season and Melo speak for themselves. I'm going to sit back and enjoy us playing at .750 and being the #1 seed in the east, while we're still waiting on 2 of our starters and continue to get better. Wonder what the excuse will be when we end the season on a good note and advance if the playoffs... ohh but the assets.

Excuse for what? I fully expect this team to finish with a very strong record. I know you're not replying to only me, but you and I are NOT disagreeing about how good this team is. We're disagreeing about how to DISTRIBUTE credit for its success. Finishing with, say, a .750 winning % won't resolve any disagreement. Because people overvalue PPG, undervalue scoring efficiency, and give little weight to other areas of the game, I fully expect Melo to get the majority of the credit and to be at worst, top 10 in MVP voting also.

No, it wasn't really directed at you, but why does it matter how success is distributed on the team? I don't think the "team" cares. Right now it's all about winning, that's all we hear before, during and after games.

“It’s huge because he trusts me coming down the stretch. He told me, ‘Let’s play through you. Coach said he wanted to play through Melo and Melo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ That’s the greatest compliment a teammate can give.” - Jason Kidd

My point is, if we have a player that's playing like a MVP candidate and being discussed among the better players in the league, why are we trying to discredit him. Why is there an argument about his damn True Shooting Percentage??? When was the last time a Knick was discussed being MVP and really having a chance to get it ... why not be happy instead of being miserable about it? That's the reason so many of us are trying to defend his play this season.

No doubt the additions of J Kidd, Prigg, Felton and Brewer are making a tremendous impact on how we are playing, but that doesn't take away from Melo being one of the best scorers in the league and his achievements don't take away from what Kidd or anyone else bring to the table. The whole team compliment one another.

Look how the lakers are playing right now with Kobe and Howard, but see how he's getting a pass because he doesn't have a good point guard. If this game is played, we can accredit a lot of the lakers success to Fisher, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kobe win 4/5 or 5/5 of his rings with Fisher as the PG??

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..

Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?

Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Can you prove this with numbers?

that is why is said immeasurable.....

but sure I will give it a shot.. Jason kidd has two roles for us.. Backup PG and SG at times... he is doing extremely well playing both positions.. first of all controlling the offense and distributing the ball where it needs to be on top of that, very good defense.. kidd is avg 9ppg with 3 boards and 3 assists, and remember he is not even controlling the ball most of the time. like he used to back in the day... he is avg less than a turnover a game, so that pretty much coincides with the knicks low turnover average as a team.. Felton is avg 2.3 turnovers per game, carmelo is pretty much right at 3.. so kidd protects the ball a lot more, although his usage rate may be less than both guys, it would be interesting to compare their turnovers in relation to usage rate...

another thing.. Kidd is shooting 48% from the field and 50% from three.. the knicks are basically a swing the ball three point offense, kidd is killing it from there... I am sure all of this plays a part in the Knicks overall offensive efficiency as we are near the top..

add in his steals at almost 2 per game the way he controls the offense, his shooting, efficiency, his defense, and his numbers don't tell the whole story... his impact is huge, it goes way past his numbers.. he is a guy that gives you more than what the numbers tell you.. it has been that way his whole career.. go back and look back at the year kidd was runner up for MVP.. his numbers didn't blow you away, he barely shot 40% that year, but his impact with the nets was so evident, you could not ignore it, you see, kidd made guys like kenyon martin and kerry kittles, better, he made richard jefferson look like a real player.. those guys didn't make kidd, he made them....

I think he is doing that to a lesser extent now.....

If Kidd's effectiveness is immeasurable why do you get so upset when Melo fans say basically the same thing about Melo's play?

i don't get upset at all, I just know that isn't the case and there is no history or evidence to support such a claim..

Summer 2012
Some fans say: The Knicks are capped and can't improve to compete.
Grunnie: Adds Felton, Camby, KT through trade. Adds FA Kidd, Brewer, Sheed, Prigioni. Resigns JR cheap and Novak to reasonable longer term contract.

Season of 2012-13
Some fans say: The Knicks are capped and can't improve to compete.
Grunnie: This again?

Bonn1997 wrote:It's a combination of the amnesty clause being a gift and Grunwald being close to a magician.

Now amnesty is a gift?!?! I am pretty sure it was bargained for and agreed to by the owners and players union. How the hell is that a gift?!?! SMH!

Long story short is that the Knicks front office has done a great job dating back to Walsh.

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's a combination of the amnesty clause being a gift and Grunwald being close to a magician.

Now amnesty is a gift?!?! I am pretty sure it was bargained for and agreed to by the owners and players union. How the hell is that a gift?!?! SMH!

Long story short is that the Knicks front office has done a great job dating back to Walsh.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:Nothing more to say. Pointless. Let's let the season and Melo speak for themselves. I'm going to sit back and enjoy us playing at .750 and being the #1 seed in the east, while we're still waiting on 2 of our starters and continue to get better. Wonder what the excuse will be when we end the season on a good note and advance if the playoffs... ohh but the assets.

Excuse for what? I fully expect this team to finish with a very strong record. I know you're not replying to only me, but you and I are NOT disagreeing about how good this team is. We're disagreeing about how to DISTRIBUTE credit for its success. Finishing with, say, a .750 winning % won't resolve any disagreement. Because people overvalue PPG, undervalue scoring efficiency, and give little weight to other areas of the game, I fully expect Melo to get the majority of the credit and to be at worst, top 10 in MVP voting also.

No, it wasn't really directed at you, but why does it matter how success is distributed on the team? I don't think the "team" cares. Right now it's all about winning, that's all we hear before, during and after games.

“It’s huge because he trusts me coming down the stretch. He told me, ‘Let’s play through you. Coach said he wanted to play through Melo and Melo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ That’s the greatest compliment a teammate can give.” - Jason Kidd

My point is, if we have a player that's playing like a MVP candidate and being discussed among the better players in the league, why are we trying to discredit him. Why is there an argument about his damn True Shooting Percentage??? When was the last time a Knick was discussed being MVP and really having a chance to get it ... why not be happy instead of being miserable about it? That's the reason so many of us are trying to defend his play this season.

No doubt the additions of J Kidd, Prigg, Felton and Brewer are making a tremendous impact on how we are playing, but that doesn't take away from Melo being one of the best scorers in the league and his achievements don't take away from what Kidd or anyone else bring to the table. The whole team compliment one another.

Look how the lakers are playing right now with Kobe and Howard, but see how he's getting a pass because he doesn't have a good point guard. If this game is played, we can accredit a lot of the lakers success to Fisher, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kobe win 4/5 or 5/5 of his rings with Fisher as the PG??

Well if you truly don't care how credit is distributed across the team, then you should not care that many think the advanced stats indicate that Melo is good but overrated. You do have a good question about why I care if Melo is getting too much credit. I care because the wrong player - Melo rather than Tyson - is being considered for MVP. Tyson should be top 10 in voting right now, and I wish he would get the recognition he deserves, but that will never happen if people incorrectly distribute too little credit for our team's success to him.

That will never happen unless Tyson develops a good post game and average more than 10 rebounds a game. I do think he should be in the running for DPOY again and finally advance to the All NBA Second team.

But again, I don't care if Tyson wins that award, as long as everyone is playing their role and we go deep in the playoffs and have a good chance at winning a championship.

And when credit is being distributed, again, all I ask is to be fair. Don't act like one of the top scorers in the league is a scrub.

See how I can admit that Tyson is playing like DPOY, Jr can be in the running for sixth man, if he get back focused like he was in the beginning without downplaying Melo. Hell, if we had a leadership award, I'll say Kidd should win hands down. Everyone is playing great, and we don't have to down another player to boast another one ... we are a TEAM

Tyson / billups-amnesty, the jury is still out.

Chandler having a great year but another Flu-Tyson showing in the playoffs would render that move a horrible failure. Especially if Amare does not return to (50 pct) form.

Bonn1997 wrote:Anyone can get the flu. You can't judge a trade based on whether a player gets the flu.

He has had health issues. You've said it yourself - lots of mileage.

If he is a no show in the playoffs again then the trade / amnesty was the wrong move (if Amare remains a jalopy).

Bonn1997 wrote:What if we wouldn't have even made the playoffs without him though? If Melo gets mulligans for two years of bad playoff outcomes, Tyson should get two also.

thats where you are wrong.

Melo was playing 1 on 5!! Geeeez - even a stat geek knows this.

Have you ever played? Have you ever played on a team that sucked against a team of stars?

Obviously not.