yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..

Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?

Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Can you prove this with numbers?

that is why is said immeasurable.....

but sure I will give it a shot.. Jason kidd has two roles for us.. Backup PG and SG at times... he is doing extremely well playing both positions.. first of all controlling the offense and distributing the ball where it needs to be on top of that, very good defense.. kidd is avg 9ppg with 3 boards and 3 assists, and remember he is not even controlling the ball most of the time. like he used to back in the day... he is avg less than a turnover a game, so that pretty much coincides with the knicks low turnover average as a team.. Felton is avg 2.3 turnovers per game, carmelo is pretty much right at 3.. so kidd protects the ball a lot more, although his usage rate may be less than both guys, it would be interesting to compare their turnovers in relation to usage rate...

another thing.. Kidd is shooting 48% from the field and 50% from three.. the knicks are basically a swing the ball three point offense, kidd is killing it from there... I am sure all of this plays a part in the Knicks overall offensive efficiency as we are near the top..

add in his steals at almost 2 per game the way he controls the offense, his shooting, efficiency, his defense, and his numbers don't tell the whole story... his impact is huge, it goes way past his numbers.. he is a guy that gives you more than what the numbers tell you.. it has been that way his whole career.. go back and look back at the year kidd was runner up for MVP.. his numbers didn't blow you away, he barely shot 40% that year, but his impact with the nets was so evident, you could not ignore it, you see, kidd made guys like kenyon martin and kerry kittles, better, he made richard jefferson look like a real player.. those guys didn't make kidd, he made them....

I think he is doing that to a lesser extent now.....

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.

We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

Well, Rose certainly deserved the MVP the year he won it. An argument could be made for others that year but Rose was certainly in that discussion and deserving. Melo is certainly in the discussion this year and whether he wins it or not will depend on various things but Melo is certainly in the discussion. This does not detract from other players making strong contributions to Knick wins. No one has stated Melo is the sole reason as to why the Knicks are 15 - 5. However, the award goes to the best player on one of the best teams and Melo is clearly the best player on the team right now.

Who said Melo wasn't in the discussion? He's been in the discussion in the past with a 6th place finish. There are other players across the league in the discussion. After 4gms starting the thread this is what makes things like this over the top.

Had the thread been started today then okay maybe a tad bit more understandable.... after 4gms NO!

There is an entire thread on this board where people said Melo was not in the discussion due to his TS%, FG% and other nonsense. As for the past, it is irrelevant to who has a real chance of winning the award this year. This current season, if the Knicks keep at this current pace and/or improve, there is a very good chance that Melo will win the MVP. Also, how the heck is me stating Melo is in the discussion over the top? I also stated that Rose was deserving the year he won. How was that over the top? Perhaps you should calm the heck down.

if the bar is set low enough: best player on the winningest team-- then by association some players will win the award.

what does this have to do with being the most valuable and indispensable player, a player who, if he doesn't play, the team struggles or even falls apart? the bulls did pretty well without rose and the knicks okay without melo. walloping the heat on the road is doing okay.

but hey knock yourself out with this mvp award stuff.

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.

sometimes i wish i were a kid. the TS stat is quite relevant even as the FG stat becomes less important. we have something called the 3-point line which take the FG stat and forces us to look at the eFG stat. then we have the TS stat that folds in the number of fouls and FTAs a player produces into the eFG stat. how are 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws irrelevant? it's about efficient production-- not mere point production. i don't know if guys can tell the difference. can you?

dk7th wrote:

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.

We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

Well, Rose certainly deserved the MVP the year he won it. An argument could be made for others that year but Rose was certainly in that discussion and deserving. Melo is certainly in the discussion this year and whether he wins it or not will depend on various things but Melo is certainly in the discussion. This does not detract from other players making strong contributions to Knick wins. No one has stated Melo is the sole reason as to why the Knicks are 15 - 5. However, the award goes to the best player on one of the best teams and Melo is clearly the best player on the team right now.

Who said Melo wasn't in the discussion? He's been in the discussion in the past with a 6th place finish. There are other players across the league in the discussion. After 4gms starting the thread this is what makes things like this over the top.

Had the thread been started today then okay maybe a tad bit more understandable.... after 4gms NO!

There is an entire thread on this board where people said Melo was not in the discussion due to his TS%, FG% and other nonsense. As for the past, it is irrelevant to who has a real chance of winning the award this year. This current season, if the Knicks keep at this current pace and/or improve, there is a very good chance that Melo will win the MVP. Also, how the heck is me stating Melo is in the discussion over the top? I also stated that Rose was deserving the year he won. How was that over the top? Perhaps you should calm the heck down.

if the bar is set low enough: best player on the winningest team-- then by association some players will win the award.

what does this have to do with being the most valuable and indispensable player, a player who, if he doesn't play, the team struggles or even falls apart? the bulls did pretty well without rose and the knicks okay without melo. walloping the heat on the road is doing okay.

but hey knock yourself out with this mvp award stuff.

We are talking about the NBA MVP and the criteria typically relied upon in deciding the recipient. We are not talking about your gut feeling, advanced stats and whatever miscellaneous factors you feel voters for the NBA MVP should be using.

Most of the top teams will do decent without their top player during the reg. season. However, these teams will not compete for a title or go far in the playoffs without their top player. Hence, the Bulls got demolished in the first round once Rose went down despite winning the first game by a good margin WITH Rose.

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..

Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?

Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Can you prove this with numbers?

i already proved it with numbers.

NUPE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.

We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

Well, Rose certainly deserved the MVP the year he won it. An argument could be made for others that year but Rose was certainly in that discussion and deserving. Melo is certainly in the discussion this year and whether he wins it or not will depend on various things but Melo is certainly in the discussion. This does not detract from other players making strong contributions to Knick wins. No one has stated Melo is the sole reason as to why the Knicks are 15 - 5. However, the award goes to the best player on one of the best teams and Melo is clearly the best player on the team right now.

i bet he'd trade in the mvp for being mvp of the finals, but it's a regular-season award and he was sufficiently exposed in the playoffs. no biggie he has company there.

I don't know how losing to a superior team equates to being exposed. Perhaps you have a lack of real understanding regarding basketball. The Heat were clearly the better team, undeniably. I am not a Rose fan. Heck, I am not really a Melo fan (I am a Knick fan). I am just calling a spade a spade.

oh i have a real understanding of the game alright. no need to be aw-shucksing that one. it just happens to diverge from yours. try not to be so fragile. i can be persuaded but i am not sure you can.

maybe the heat weren't the better team. maybe they just knew that if they (lebron) hounded rose he would make the wrong decision, and since he is the guy with the highest usage rate ever for a point guard not named iverson, that's exactly what they had to do. it's a team game and rose is still learning that.

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.

But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

The reliance on advanced stats is a poorly veiled and laughable attempt to negate Melo's overall play and/or impact on the team. You and the others that constantly bring these stats up are not fooling anyone.

The bottom-line is that Melo is playing extremely well and the Knicks are winning. You can take your Usage / Assist Ratio and toss it in the bushes. It is irrelevant.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.

But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

The reliance on advanced stats is a poorly veiled and laughable attempt to negate Melo's overall play and/or impact on the team. You and the others that constantly bring these stats up are not fooling anyone.

The bottom-line is that Melo is playing extremely well and the Knicks are winning. You can take your Usage / Assist Ratio and toss it in the bushes. It is irrelevant.

People are using advanced stats just to negate Melo's play? Like if Melo was never born, Hollinger, Berri, and James would have never had the motivation to create advanced stats?
You are stating opinion without any evidence.

I don't see Hollinger, Berri or whoever else you noted posting on this board. I just see a few people who cried Melo could not win MVP because his TS% was not high enough. Some are now whining about Melo's usage/assist ratio in attempt to prove he does not make his teammates better as if the Knicks are not getting numerous open three attempts based upon Melo being doubled and tripled. It really does not matter if Melo gets the assist. What matter is that the initial hole in the defense that ultimately led to an open shot was generated by some defender coming over to double Melo. The vaunted usage/assist ratio does not take this into consideration. SMH!

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.

But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

The reliance on advanced stats is a poorly veiled and laughable attempt to negate Melo's overall play and/or impact on the team. You and the others that constantly bring these stats up are not fooling anyone.

The bottom-line is that Melo is playing extremely well and the Knicks are winning. You can take your Usage / Assist Ratio and toss it in the bushes. It is irrelevant.

People are using advanced stats just to negate Melo's play? Like if Melo was never born, Hollinger, Berri, and James would have never had the motivation to create advanced stats?
You are stating opinion without any evidence.

I don't see Hollinger, Berri or whoever else you noted posting on this board. I just see a few people who cried Melo could not win MVP because his TS% was not high enough. Some are now whining about Melo's usage/assist ratio in attempt to prove he does not make his teammates better as if the Knicks are not getting numerous open three attempts based upon Melo being doubled and tripled. It really does not matter if Melo gets the assist. What matter is that the initial hole in the defense that ultimately led to an open shot was generated by some defender coming over to double Melo. The vaunted usage/assist ratio does not take this into consideration. SMH!

dk7th wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

nah, I understand the process, I enjoy watching those teams, they will be fine... you see this is not that deep for me.. the knicks have to win NOW, those teams don't...... you still a fan...

So says you. The Knicks have not won their division, a playoff series or the conference in how long?!?!? There is a lot of room for improvement and success this season without winning it all. The must win now mantra is simply a pathetic attempt on your part to reserve the right to claim this season is a failure. I see what you are doing, troll!

it would be great to hear what your standards are for this team? will a playoff appearance be enough? a second round appearance? an ECF appearance? what level would you deem success for this team?

I think the most fun thing of being a fan of a team is the journey. If you can't enjoy the journey what's the point of watching. Sports is entertainment. So every game we have to sit back and say this won't cut it unless they win a title? I can't accept this win cause Melo's Assist Usage Ratio was below my standards? We won but man we are paying Amare 100 mil..he should have 22 points vs. 18? Seems very depressing. Over the last decade we've had putrid teams that didn't even sniff the playoffs let alone a title and now it's Title or Bust LOL.

You know the 90s KNicks never won a title but I cherish that era cause they competed and left everything on the court. Mike Woodson's Knicks are doing the same thing. I can never say they lost cause of their effort. For me that's enough for me. In the meantime if they win a title while playing their tails off that's a bonus.