Remember BEFORE Chandler got here and we witnessed a nightly layup line against the Amare led frontcourt? Remember how every marginal star in the NBA (and every star) would have career nights against the Knicks?

The Knicks became a top 10 D when Chandler got here (and that was even before Woody took over). There was dramatic change in Dallas when he arrived as well. Haven't looked at New Orleans or Charlotte but I'm willing to take an educated guess that their defenses were at least respectably league average or better when he was there.

Read this article on what Serge Ibaka needs to do to get better, there was a little mention of Tyson Chandler that really made me appreciate what he brings to the table.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8570097/serge-ibaka-improve-thunder-continue-contend-nba-championship

Watch the best big-man defenders — Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard — and you'll notice an economy of movement that is really something, considering the speed of an NBA game. They recognize immediately, almost before it happens, the moment at which their help has contained an initial opponent action, and it is thus time to return to their original assignment. They are already beginning their retreat, shifting their momentum, at the split second the ball handler on a pick-and-roll picks up his dribble.

Now if only it was Amare we amnestied to sign him instead of Chauncey.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

If Ibaka has a better jumper than Chandler.
But Chandler is way better defensively.

Doesn't that just mean they're both getting paid to do different things?
What would you pay Tyson Chandler if you were the GM of a team?

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

Serge Ibaka is alledgely 23 yrs old and improving.

Chandler is 30 and stagnating. Still no jumper or post game. We overpaid for him. Oh and his defense is OVERRATED.

Basically Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor. Ibaka is turning into a very solid 2 way big.

"his defense is OVERRATED" What exactly are you basing this statement on?

"Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor." Again, what is this based on..??

Oh and I edited my post so maybe you didn't see the question: If you were the Knicks GM, given that we desperately needed a defensive center to protect the rim since STAT is useless on D, what type of contract would you have offered Tyson Chandler?

Do you think Joakim Noah is also overpaid? Brook Lopez? Omer Asik? Roy Hibbert?

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

If Ibaka has a better jumper than Chandler.
But Chandler is way better defensively.

Doesn't that just mean they're both getting paid to do different things?
What would you pay Tyson Chandler if you were the GM of a team?

If Ibaka was not as good as chandler why does Ibaka make first team all NBA and Chandler does not? Ibaka is also a far better shot blocker.

mrKnickShot wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

If Ibaka has a better jumper than Chandler.
But Chandler is way better defensively.

Doesn't that just mean they're both getting paid to do different things?
What would you pay Tyson Chandler if you were the GM of a team?

If Ibaka was not as good as chandler why does Ibaka make first team all NBA and Chandler does not? Ibaka is also a far better shot blocker.

A few questions for you: (Not asking sarcastically or to pick a fight. just actually curious)

Out of curiosity, how old are you/how long have you been watching this league? It seems like you're a pretty hardcore basketball fan so it's pretty surprising to me that you didn't consider the following:

1) They voted for first team all NBA by position. Ibaka got voted in as a forward. I would actually put both Luol Deng and KG above Ibaka as defenders right now as far as forwards go.

2) The only reason Chandler didn't get voted on to first team is because he's competing with Dwight Howard.

3) First team all NBA isn't the greatest measure of defensive value to a team. Ex: Andre Iguodala is widely considered to be one of the toughest wing defenders in the league. Probably the best outside of Lebron. Guess how many times he made first team all NBA defense in his entire career?

In 2010 Kobe was 1st team. Iggy was 2nd. I dobut that you think Kobe was better than Iggy on D that year.

In response to what you said/your question:

Yes, Ibaka gets more blocks than Chandler does. He's younger, quicker and at this point in his career can probably jump higher than Chandler does.

There is more to defense than blocking shots though, right? Deandre Jordan is a great shot blocker because he has young legs/is athletic. If you watch Clippers games and talk to/read people that follow the team closely, it's also widely acknowledged that he need lots of improvement in terms of defensive awareness. That is:

knowing where to be on the floor at all times
knowing exactly HOW to help other defenders without getting caught out of position
how to defend the pick and roll and how that varies nightly against diff. teams
studying the tendencies of players he has to guard one on one, what are their go to moves and countermoves

this is all the stuff you learn with experience. I think of Chandler kind of like Antonio Pierce for the giants in terms of being the QB of the D, with some Ray Lewis thrown in, in terms of being vocal and helping to hold guys accountable for being committed on that end.

Again, what other way do you explain the Knicks going from league laughingstock to top of the league under MIKE D'ANTONI after Chandler got here.

tkf wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

Serge Ibaka is alledgely 23 yrs old and improving.

Chandler is 30 and stagnating. Still no jumper or post game. We overpaid for him. Oh and his defense is OVERRATED.

Basically Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor. Ibaka is turning into a very solid 2 way big.

"his defense is OVERRATED" What exactly are you basing this statement on?

"Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor." Again, what is this based on..??

Oh and I edited my post so maybe you didn't see the question: If you were the Knicks GM, given that we desperately needed a defensive center to protect the rim since STAT is useless on D, what type of contract would you have offered Tyson Chandler?

Do you think Joakim Noah is also overpaid? Brook Lopez? Omer Asik? Roy Hibbert?

those other centers do have some sort offense and they are younger and improving.. I would somewhat hesitate to call chandler's defense overrated, but i can see how some might feel that way.. he isn't a dominant defender.. not like a dwight or even a Ben wallace, but he is solid and effective.... I just want to see chandler go on one of those stretches where he blocks everything in sight and is just a force in the middle, I really never saw that from him.... but with that said, he is a solid man defender, a great help defender and he plays hard on defense...

haha tkf. I like how AnubisADL makes some bold, vague statements and then totally gets ADD and starts a thread about Ty Lawson's contract. thanks for attempting to clarify what the heck that guy was talking about.

it just seems to me like people have super short memories and have forgotten all about Tyson's crazy defense the year the Mavs won it all. He was DOMINANT in that Heat series.

this obsessions with shot blocking is kinda weird. javale mcgee looks great blocking shots but the guy just started learning how to be an NBA player towards the end of last season.

perhaps some of us will only appreciate him once he's gone and we have to deal with Eddy Curry/Jerome James/Amare playing "defense"

Chandler's D didnt help the Hornets or Charlotte.

Dude is overrated. Dwight Howard is a defensive beast. Chandler is not Dwight Howard. Chandler's above average defense gets cancelled by his below average offense. This isn't football.

1 great defensive season in a contract year out of 12 doesnt help your case.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

tkf wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Serge Ibaka has an semi-automatic jumper. So yes Chandler is overpaid.

Going to Dallas that year helped him get PAID.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "semi-automatic" jumper. His jumper is better than Chandlers, yes.

That article pointed out that Chandler's defensive awareness is elite while Ibaka has a way to go in that department.

You seem to be saying that because Tyson Chandler does not have a semi-automatic jumper like Serge Ibaka he is overpaid? Is that what you're saying?

Serge Ibaka is alledgely 23 yrs old and improving.

Chandler is 30 and stagnating. Still no jumper or post game. We overpaid for him. Oh and his defense is OVERRATED.

Basically Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor. Ibaka is turning into a very solid 2 way big.

"his defense is OVERRATED" What exactly are you basing this statement on?

"Chandler is a total liability on the offensive end of the floor." Again, what is this based on..??

Oh and I edited my post so maybe you didn't see the question: If you were the Knicks GM, given that we desperately needed a defensive center to protect the rim since STAT is useless on D, what type of contract would you have offered Tyson Chandler?

Do you think Joakim Noah is also overpaid? Brook Lopez? Omer Asik? Roy Hibbert?

those other centers do have some sort offense and they are younger and improving.. I would somewhat hesitate to call chandler's defense overrated, but i can see how some might feel that way.. he isn't a dominant defender.. not like a dwight or even a Ben wallace, but he is solid and effective.... I just want to see chandler go on one of those stretches where he blocks everything in sight and is just a force in the middle, I really never saw that from him.... but with that said, he is a solid man defender, a great help defender and he plays hard on defense...

haha tkf. I like how AnubisADL makes some bold, vague statements and then totally gets ADD and starts a thread about Ty Lawson's contract. thanks for attempting to clarify what the heck that guy was talking about.

it just seems to me like people have super short memories and have forgotten all about Tyson's crazy defense the year the Mavs won it all. He was DOMINANT in that Heat series.

this obsessions with shot blocking is kinda weird. javale mcgee looks great blocking shots but the guy just started learning how to be an NBA player towards the end of last season.

perhaps some of us will only appreciate him once he's gone and we have to deal with Eddy Curry/Jerome James/Amare playing "defense"

yea, shot blocking can be a bit overrated, but it does send a message, and it causes havoc.... when you get a guy in the middle sending everything back, it sends a message... now chandler is more of a man defender and help defender.... he will change shots and he will guard his man well straight up.. that is also underrated.. some guys just can't guard straight up. he can.. And you are right, in the Dallas series he had a 17 rebound game that really put a hurting on miami, the mavs won that game and chandler was a demon, so he has it in him, just would like to see more of it...

I'd trade Chandler for Asik/Ibaka(who isn't even a center) for Chandler 1trillion times out of 1.

AnubisADL wrote:Chandler's D didnt help the Hornets or Charlotte.

I don't know what you're basing this on. Did you look at where their defenses ranked while he was there vs. before he came?

AnubisADL wrote:Dude is overrated. Dwight Howard is a defensive beast. Chandler is not Dwight Howard.

Again when you say things like "Dude is overrated", there's nothing I can really say to that. If you're talking to someone who says he's the best center in the league then yeah he's overrated. I think he's one of the best defensive centers in the league and not a "total liability on offense". Omer Asik is a total liability on offense. You don't need to resort to hyperbole to make a point.

Dwight Howard is a defensive beast. Yes that is true.

Chandler is not Dwight Howard. That is also true. I am also not Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard is not Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem Olajuwon is not Chris Paul. Chris Paul is not Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman is not Madonna.

I fail to see what the point is that you're trying to make. Is it simply that Dwight Howard > Tyson Chandler defensively? Ok, great. Is it that all centers who aren't better than Dwight Howard defensively are overrated? Is it that only Dwight Howard is a defensive beast?

Serge Ibaka is a good defender but he might be overrated in that department by those who equate highlight reel shot blocks with great defense. You might be in that camp? Here's an example of areas where Ibaka is behind Chandler

Defense

The Thunder weren’t quite good enough defensively last season, and the learning curve is still in its early stages. They were just a hair above average defensively last season, and they have been just about average through three games this season. Ibaka’s growth as a defender might be the single most important high-ceiling variable in the NBA, and last night’s loss was like a highlight reel of why his no. 2 finish in the Defensive Player of the Year voting was so egregious. Ivan Johnson and Al Horford each back-cut an inattentive Ibaka for dunks. Zaza Pachulia muscled him out of the way for an offensive rebound and put the ball back in after baiting Ibaka with a pump fake — one of several that Ibaka bit on, a chronic issue. His pick-and-roll footwork was spotty, as the Hawks often caught him running too fast out toward the perimeter to contain that play, his oncoming speed sabotaging his balance and making him prone to blow-bys. There were bits of overhelping here and there.

Ibaka is not a bad defender — not even close — and he’s not alone here. Russell Westbrook remains jumpy, and his hyperactive bounciness can be death against a wily change-of-direction cutter like Lou Williams. Westbrook also committed three silly non-shooting fouls on the perimeter last night, allowing the Hawks early entry into the bonus; Ibaka compounded this by conceding two bonus free throws in the second quarter when he simply ran over Kyle Korver on a cross-screen.

Again: These guys aren’t abjectly bad defenders. Ibaka is a shot-blocking menace who can cover startlingly large swaths of space in a pinch, altering shots. Westbrook can be a pest denying the ball and has tremendous closing speed against shooters curling off screens.

But Ibaka needs to develop into a super-plus defender, and the Thunder just need more solidity on defense. It should come with time.

I was simply making the case that if Asik got $8M per and Ibaka is getting paid $12M per, and Joakim Noah is also getting about that much then Chandler isn't really overpaid by all that much. Jeromes James and Eddy Curry were egregiously overpaid. Chandler maybe slightly.

AnubisADL wrote:1 great defensive season in a contract year out of 12 doesnt help your case.

What are you using to define "great defensive season"? If I knew we might be able to have a conversation that goes beyond

Yes he is!
No he isn't!
Yes he is!
No he isn't!

It seems like you're referring to his 1 season with the Mavs as his 1 "great defensive season".

I took a look at opponent points allowed in the paint:

2011-2012: Knicks 7th in the league with Chandler
2010-2011: Knicks 26th without Chandler.
28th the year before that and the year before that.

Maybe ANY legit center would have helped us take a huge leap. I believe there are other measures of team defense that showed us taking a HUGE leap with Chandler even with Pringles coaching.

Again, I have no problem considering your opinion but I'm confused as to what exactly you're basing your opinions on. Show me some numbers. Point to a specific play where he looked lost on defense.

Ex:

"Tyson Chandler is a total liability on offense"

Is he amongst the lowest scoring centers in the league? Is his fg% at the rim amongst the lowest, implying he can't finish? Is he taking bad shots outside of this range? Is he turning the ball over more than other centers? Do Knicks possessions that involve him in a Pick n Roll average less points than other Pick N Roll combos in the league?

To me, Omer Asik is a total liability on offense because he doesn't even go up for putbacks and shoots 48% from the FT line. He also shoots 10 percentage points below league average at the rim (62%)

Chandler shot 75% at the rim last season, which make him an above average finisher at the rim. The percentage of offensive rebounds he grabbed while on the court was also pretty damn high. Higher than Kevin Love's actually. In all the minutes I watched him last season he took 0 bad shots. He stays in his lane. To me that means he has value on the offensive end. He's primarily a defensive player. No one is going to confuse him Kareem or anything either but "total liability" seems a bit harsh. Maybe you throw that word around loosely.

What is your measure of value? Ability to hit long jumpers? That seems to be what you implied when referring to Ibaka's "semi-automatic" jumper.

To me there are PLENTY of guys in the league who like to take and can make long jumpers. Guy who want to rebound, guys who have good defensive awareness are rare.

Looking forward to your well thought out, logical, well researched responses.