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Are The Older, (Maybe) Wiser NY Knicks Better? from Hoopsworld
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KnicksFE
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9/10/2012  9:04 AM

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Are The Older, (Maybe) Wiser NY Knicks Better?
By Tommy Beer
Senior NBA Writer & Fantasy Sports Editor
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J.R. Smith will celebrate his 27th birthday on Sunday (follow Swish on twitter and I’m positive you’ll get plenty of “interesting” details of said celebration…); which means that when the Knicks take the floor on opening night next season, each and every member of their rotation will be 27 years of age or older.

In fact, a contingent of that rotation will be significantly older. At the end of last season there were a grand total of five active NBA players over the age of 38. The Knicks signed and/or traded for three of those of five players over the course of four days back in July…

Here is a quick recap (in chronological order) of the offseason acquisitions and departures orchestrated by New York General Manager Glen Grunwald:

•Traded guard Toney Douglas (age 26), centers Josh Harrellson (23) and Jerome Jordan (25) and two future 2nd round draft picks and cash to the Houston Rockets for center Marcus Camby (age 38)
•Re-signed J.R. Smith (age 26)
•Signed guard Jason Kidd (age 39) and re-signed forward Steve Novak (29)
•Opt not to match offer sheet on Landry Fields (age 24); Fields signs with Toronto.
•Traded forward Jared Jeffries (30), center Dan Gadzuric (34), the draft rights to forwards Georgios Printezis (age 26) and Kostas Papanikolaou (age 22), a 2016 second-round pick and cash to the Portland Trail Blazers for guard Raymond Felton (28) and forward Kurt Thomas (39)
•Opt to not match offer sheet on Jeremy Lin (age 23); Lin signs with Rockets.
•Signed guard Pablo Prigioni (age 35)
•Signed guard Ronnie Brewer (age 27)
Now, a player’s age is by no means a strict determinant of his value. For instance, not matching the insanely overpriced contract the Toronto Raptors offered Landry Fields was a no-brainer. Grunwald certainly made the right decision to let Landry walk.

Conversely, the addition of Marcus Camby – as was discussed in this space at the time the trade was made – was a shrewd move that could pay huge dividends down the road. Despite his advanced age, Camby remains one of the NBA’s elite rebounders and is still a solid shot blocker and paint protector. Consider this: Dwight Howard finished second the NBA in rebound rate last season, behind only one player: Camby.

In fact, Camby has led the NBA in rebound rate each of the past three seasons. Despite seeing reduced playing time in the latter stages of his career, Marcus has been remarkably efficient. Since the start of the 2010-11 season, Camby has averaged 14.1 rebounds, 2.2 blocks and 1.1 steals per-36 minutes. Moreover, it was imperative to find a legit back-up big man. Not only to bolster the defense, but also to get more rest for Tyson Chandler and Amar’e Stoudemire. During his championship season in Dallas, Chandler averaged less than 28 minutes per game. Last season in New York, Chandler played over 33 minutes a night. That’s too much of a burden on the Knicks’ best big man. On a similar note, reducing Stoudemire’s workload is imperative as well. He played over 36 mpg during his first year in New York, and his body has been a mess ever since. Camby is versatile enough to slide in at either the center or power forward spot.

Similarly, adding Brewer gives the Knicks another plus-defender. The fact that the Knicks were able to ink him to a contract at the veteran’s minimum (less than $1.1 million) is undoubtedly a bargain – Brewer has made over $9.4 million during his previous two seasons in Chicago. Strong wing defenders are essential in today’s NBA. And while Brewer’s offensive game is far from pretty, to paint him as a complete liability on offense is unfair. While he did struggle with his shot last season, Ronnie’s career FG percentage sits at 50.1 percent. To put that in perspective, Tyson Chandler was the only Knick to shoot over 50% from the floor last season. Lastly, Brewer maximizes possessions; he was one of just five players in the NBA last season to average over one steal but less than one turnover per contest.

However, the Knicks foolish and incomprehensible decision to let Lin walk was a terrible error in judgment. For a thorough explanation of this inexcusable debacle – click here, or here…

As far as the PG’s brought in as Lin was leaving, the jury is out. New York’s lack of a reliable and effective point guard during last season’s playoff push was a major obstacle to success.

Kidd is a proven winner, and is just one season removed from being the starting PG on a world championship Mavs team. One of the all-time great point guard in the history of the NBA, it remains to be seen just how much gas is left in Kidd’s tank.

As far as Felton is concerned, Knicks fans are curious to find out which Raymond will show up. When Felton initially signed with NY as a free agent back in the summer of 2010, Knicks fans were excited to have a legit point guard on the roster. And, Felton, who was coming off a disappointing season in Charlotte, performed extraordinarily well over his first 50-plus games in a Knickerbocker uniform. He played the best basketball of his entire career during that three-month stint under Mike D’Antoni in NYC. Felton started 54 games for the Knicks that season, averaging 17.1 points, 9.0 assists and 1.8 steals. However, since leaving the Big Apple, Felton’s play has been consistently mediocre and largely disappointing.

Examining the complete body of work, not just his short stint under D’Antoni, Felton has proven himself to be an average (at best) starting PG in the NBA. In the 80 games Felton played in Charlotte before coming to NY, he averaged 12.1 points and 5.6 assists for the Bobcats. Since leaving New York, Felton has played a total of 81 games and has averaged 11.4 points and 6.5 assists in those contests. All told, that’s 161 total games from which to draw data. That’s the player the Knicks are trading for.

Can the combo of Felton and Kidd provide the point guard play necessary to push the Knicks towards the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference?

Looking at the big picture, it appears the Knicks have improved their depth and solidified their defense through their myriad transactions this summer. It did come at a cost; they lost their most promising young player (for reasons unknown), and traded away multiple 2nd round picks as well as using the full allotment of the $3 million in cash available to facilitate trades throughout the fiscal year. The inability to include any money in any trade they make for the next 11 months could prove to be particularly painful.

However, the roster as currently constituted looks solid on paper. The second unit, likely consisting of Kidd, Smith, Novak, and Camby is a vast improvement over previous New York bench brigades. How about this imposing five-man lineup Coach Mike Woodson could send out to get a key stop in an important game in late April: Iman Shumpert (assuming he’s fully healed), Brewer, ‘Melo, Camby, and Chandler. That’s group will be tough to score on.

Yet, eventually we come back to the question we posed at the top: can the vet’s Grunwald brought in stay healthy?

Older players bring with them intangibles such as experience and a certain comfort level in big games that only repeated playoff success can bring. The potential downside is a greater propensity for injury and decreased effectiveness as the marathon season drags on. The average age of the players currently on the Knicks roster is inching towards 29. Last season, New York’s average age barely exceeded 26.

Grunwald gambled a bit by investing in older vets instead of younger, less proven options. Arguments can be made both for and against this approach.

This much is now clear and undeniable: The Knicks are all in and have pushed their chips towards the middle of the table. This is not a team building towards a brighter future at some point down the road; the window to win is “now.”

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nixluva
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9/10/2012  1:59 PM
I'm Nixluva and I approve this message! I think this was the smart thing to do. This franchise has messed around long enough. With Melo as the centerpiece of the franchise now, they can't waste anymore time when this guy is right in the middle of his prime. They have to go for it now. Why in the world would you wait for some "brighter future"? The time is now! Will these moves be enough? Who knows, but you have to try and give this team the best chance possible.

With this team the new motto has to be "SHUT'EM DOWN"!!! That's what i'm gonna make my new slogan for this new season, cuz I think when fully healthy this team can be that kind of team. I'm hoping that's what happens. Once we get Brewer and Shump back this team should have that kind of ability.

technomaster
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9/10/2012  5:24 PM
We're absolutely starting the season with a better team than last season at this time.

Felton/Kidd vs Tony D/Bibby is no contest. Worlds better.
Proven Novak vs wtf did we sign him Novak? Much better.
Camby vs... Jorts/Jordan? No contest.
Kurt Thomas vs Jared Jeffries. Well, I'd like to think KT40 can make layups and shoot jumpers better... and probably plays better fundamental big man D than JJ's floppy/out of control approach, but he can't guard wings. (but then again, JJ couldn't guard anyone when his chronic knee issues flared up)
Brewer vs Fields. Well, a healthy, flat shooting Fields is better than an injured Brewer, but this is roughly even.
Injured Shumpert vs soon-to-be-injured Shumpert. Last year's Shump was able to contribute even with a gimpy knee. This year's version is going to be out until the new year.

What worries me about this team is the lack of young blood and the enthusiasm/hope they might bring. Until Shumpert returns, we have none of that. Last year we got that out of Shump/Lin/Jorts/Fields... and in a way, we also got that from Novak, who for the first time in his career got important minutes.

While we have character/steadiness from the backup positions in our 35+ 2nd unit, we don't have the reckless abandon associated with young players - the enthusiastic motor that drives insane comebacks after the starting unit comes up flat.

In a way, this Knicks team very much reminds me of the Chris Mills (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1998.html) 97-98 Knicks team, where we were 2 deep at every position - then Ewing hurt his elbow (thanks, Andrew Lang!) - this was also Starks' last season w/ the Knicks - didn't realize he was already 32.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Knixkik
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9/10/2012  7:35 PM
What i like best about this team's approach is this is a win-now, 3-year plan. There is a method to the madness. Many of these players are old, but beyond the 3-year mark only Anthony, Felton, and Shumpert are still on payroll. All three are young, and we can continue to build with beyond that point. If Chandler and Stoudemire are still productive, they can be resigned for less and hopefully we can add another significant piece. Hopefully we have also found some diamonds in the rough similar to Novak, Lin, etc to fill in for Kidd, Camby, and whoever else won't be around at that point. This is a structured all-in approach that has the team committed now, but still has the opportunity to retool with the main pieces in place. In 3 years, Anthony will be 31 and still hopefully have a few years in his prime as long as minutes are regulated. Shumpert will be entering his prime and can hopefully develop into a Sprewell-type 2-way player and perennial all-star. And Felton will be a solid PG who may or may not be the answer, but we will know by then. From there everything is up in the air, but at least the foundation will still be in place.
KnicksFE
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9/11/2012  8:32 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/11/2012  8:34 AM
While we will definitely have a better team this year because our bench is deeper and better, I wonder why we couldn’t have the best of both worlds?

Look at the Celtics, the Spurs, the Heat, these teams were winning championships with young point guards in their lineup, the Lakers were also winning with a very young center starting for them. Considering that Lin is five years younger than Felton and just as good now, with twice the potential. I insist, why didn’t we keep him?

Mray20
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9/11/2012  12:53 PM
Lin is not better than Felton right now based on 25 starts. I like what the Knicks have put together, a rugged veteran defensive team, I believe in Felton and Kidd at the PG position they will get Amare and Melo the ball where they need it, Lin was a shoot first PG who excelled in the open court , that is not the identity of this team lets all move forward and get ready for what should be a deep playoff run if everyone stays healthy.
No layups!
KnicksFE
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9/11/2012  1:32 PM
Mray20 wrote:Lin is not better than Felton right now based on 25 starts. I like what the Knicks have put together, a rugged veteran defensive team, I believe in Felton and Kidd at the PG position they will get Amare and Melo the ball where they need it, Lin was a shoot first PG who excelled in the open court , that is not the identity of this team lets all move forward and get ready for what should be a deep playoff run if everyone stays healthy.

I never said that Lin was better than Felton; I said that he is just as good and has the potential to be twice the player that he is right now. As far as Lin being a shoot first point guard, do you know that today’s NBA rules actually favor this type of point guards? Also, I think that Lin with Kidd is actually a better combination since one attack and the other one is a spot up shooter, it would have giving us more option offensively.

I surely hope that the Knicks finally make a deep playoff run this year, but assuming that everyone will be healthy is not thinking realistically, many of the players we just signed are close to 40 years old and are more prone to injuries. So unless Carmelo is the one that gets hurt, injuries are not an excuse any more, Knicks management chose this path for better or worst.

nixluva
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9/11/2012  2:35 PM
I think what the Knicks believe is that having committed only thru 3 years, this team will again be able to rebuild at the end of this run and that kind of freedom is a smart move. Who knows what young stars will be free at that point or the year after and the Knicks will be a player once again in the free agent market. You don't have to like the idea of buying talent, but this is NY and they need players who have box office appeal. The draft is such an iffy prospect that you can't rely on that to find your superstars. You want to draft well, but also sign well too.
KnicksFE
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9/11/2012  2:51 PM
nixluva wrote:I think what the Knicks believe is that having committed only thru 3 years, this team will again be able to rebuild at the end of this run and that kind of freedom is a smart move. Who knows what young stars will be free at that point or the year after and the Knicks will be a player once again in the free agent market. You don't have to like the idea of buying talent, but this is NY and they need players who have box office appeal. The draft is such an iffy prospect that you can't rely on that to find your superstars. You want to draft well, but also sign well too.

This is one more reason why I was in favor of the Knicks matching Lin’s 3 years contract with Houston, because if he pans out, than you have one position already cover and if he doesn’t; his contract would still expire at the same time with the others. So the Knicks would had maintain the freedom to rebuild three years from now.

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9/11/2012  4:33 PM
jrodmc
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9/11/2012  5:44 PM




technomaster
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9/11/2012  10:02 PM
Shame that we'll never get to see Lin grow with the Knicks.

For the sake of the sanity of Knick fans, hope Lin doesn't really improve too much... and hope Felton and the Knicks win a title. :) (Felton can play like Charlie Ward for all I care if the Knicks can get a title)

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
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9/11/2012  10:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/11/2012  10:34 PM
This team reminds me Rangers teams with Bure, Jagr, and bunch of vets.
They get it done once with Messie and The Grate One but then they suck badly for 15 years.
Knicks can make some noise but in 2 years this team will suck badly.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
KnicksFE
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9/12/2012  7:43 AM
arkrud wrote:This team reminds me Rangers teams with Bure, Jagr, and bunch of vets.
They get it done once with Messie and The Grate One but then they suck badly for 15 years.
Knicks can make some noise but in 2 years this team will suck badly.

If the Knicks make it (win a chip), I would be happy for the next decade regardless of our situation (good or bad), unfortunately while our core is good, I seriously doubt that it’s any better than the TOP 4 teams in the NBA today.

arkrud
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9/12/2012  8:29 AM
KnicksFE wrote:
arkrud wrote:This team reminds me Rangers teams with Bure, Jagr, and bunch of vets.
They get it done once with Messie and The Grate One but then they suck badly for 15 years.
Knicks can make some noise but in 2 years this team will suck badly.

If the Knicks make it (win a chip), I would be happy for the next decade regardless of our situation (good or bad), unfortunately while our core is good, I seriously doubt that it’s any better than the TOP 4 teams in the NBA today.

Chip is great but I prefer to see solid product on the court for long time.
The team I can be proud of. Organization which cares about the fans and the game.
The last time I saw this kind of Knicks team in 1998... long time and counting...

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
jrodmc
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9/12/2012  10:00 AM
technomaster wrote:Shame that we'll never get to see Lin grow with the Knicks.

For the sake of the sanity of Knick fans, hope Lin doesn't really improve too much... and hope Felton and the Knicks win a title. :) (Felton can play like Charlie Ward for all I care if the Knicks can get a title)

Why would you even wish that on anyone on the Knicks? I hated disliked always wished that Charlie Football could have been our backup PG.

Nalod
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9/12/2012  10:32 AM
arkrud wrote:
KnicksFE wrote:
arkrud wrote:This team reminds me Rangers teams with Bure, Jagr, and bunch of vets.
They get it done once with Messie and The Grate One but then they suck badly for 15 years.
Knicks can make some noise but in 2 years this team will suck badly.

If the Knicks make it (win a chip), I would be happy for the next decade regardless of our situation (good or bad), unfortunately while our core is good, I seriously doubt that it’s any better than the TOP 4 teams in the NBA today.

Chip is great but I prefer to see solid product on the court for long time.
The team I can be proud of. Organization which cares about the fans and the game.
The last time I saw this kind of Knicks team in 1998... long time and counting...

I'll take a starphuch moment and hoist a banner with Mercenary players but its not the same as a LONG run of a team coming together and maturing into an NBA contender. That does not always yield a championship but when it does it galvanizes the fans who were on the bandwagon early into life long fans. This is the legacy team of the 1968 and they needed two years to fulfil the destiny. Three seaons of some hard luck and battles against some great teams they were able to hoist another championship banner.
In in 1974 they lost in the conf finals which marked the end of a great 7 year run.

The team was mix of trades and draft picks. Free agency has changed the complextion of modern sports forever but it does take away from continueity. While we can argue the Melo deal forever until his tenure as knick is complete it is usually common those who were not in favor of it to be having a good time following our young team who had a free agent infusion of Amare and Felton to a young core and it was a pretty good team. We can also all agree that was not a contending team but more picks, trades, cap space could have evolved it over time and kept them at a high sustainable level. This is how the better teams do it.

I suppose we have a short window as Dolan retooled this team to meet the N*t invasion this year. I guess we all fear without a lot of youth or picks our window can be short and the post Amare/Tyson/Melo contracts has good cap space to spend on but not so many organic assets coming thru the system.

We'll deal with that in the future...........

Knixkik
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9/12/2012  10:56 AM
KnicksFE wrote:While we will definitely have a better team this year because our bench is deeper and better, I wonder why we couldn’t have the best of both worlds?

Look at the Celtics, the Spurs, the Heat, these teams were winning championships with young point guards in their lineup, the Lakers were also winning with a very young center starting for them. Considering that Lin is five years younger than Felton and just as good now, with twice the potential. I insist, why didn’t we keep him?

We will win with a young SG in the lineup named Iman Shumpert. I know this will be a recovery year for him, but by year 3 we will be looking at a player who is a developing all-nba defender and improving offensive player, in the Igoudala mold. I think he can be to the Knicks what Starks and Sprewell were during the 90s and early 2000s.

Knixkik
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9/12/2012  10:58 AM
nixluva wrote:I think what the Knicks believe is that having committed only thru 3 years, this team will again be able to rebuild at the end of this run and that kind of freedom is a smart move. Who knows what young stars will be free at that point or the year after and the Knicks will be a player once again in the free agent market. You don't have to like the idea of buying talent, but this is NY and they need players who have box office appeal. The draft is such an iffy prospect that you can't rely on that to find your superstars. You want to draft well, but also sign well too.

We will have at a minimum of Melo and Shumpert to build thru in 3 years, which i will be excited about. Hopefully Shumpert can continue to develop into an all-nba defender and all-star.

jrodmc
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9/12/2012  2:50 PM
KnicksFE wrote:
arkrud wrote:This team reminds me Rangers teams with Bure, Jagr, and bunch of vets.
They get it done once with Messie and The Grate One but then they suck badly for 15 years.
Knicks can make some noise but in 2 years this team will suck badly.

If the Knicks make it (win a chip), I would be happy for the next decade regardless of our situation (good or bad), unfortunately while our core is good, I seriously doubt that it’s any better than the TOP 4 teams in the NBA today.

Unfortunately for the more pragmatic negativists among us, winning one chip would not validate anything other than:
1) extension of Melo hate to include him being a one-win loser
2) our owner is still a douchebag that doesn't deserve a banner in his building that came under his watch
3) Brooklyn is still a better fan value, despite finishing at or near the bottom of the division
4) OKC is still the best model to watch and root for.

Are The Older, (Maybe) Wiser NY Knicks Better? from Hoopsworld

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