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This euphoria is a little over the top
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loweyecue
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4/9/2012  7:29 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
misterearl wrote: I'm taking it with some salt.

Dude, just in case you hadn't heard - salt is bad for your health.

By definition euphoria IS over the top.

You can always change the channel.

Not me.

Having too much fun enjoying the best ride in years.

We apologize if The Garden too loud for you yesterday.

We promise to tone it down.

Yeah right.

Why don't you respond to whether we can or can't really beat the Bulls/Heat etc instead of heaping empty sarcasm.

With Woodson/Melo there's always a chance to beat these teams. With MDA/Linsanity no chance. Heat already showed the league the blueprint. With Woodson/Melo/Lin now that's a great chance to win a series or 2.

Thank you for responding to the post. I agree to some extent that we can pull out one game against the very top teams. Bit can we do it repeatedly or predictably? That was my question. Bulls at home will be good test, plus a slumping Miami after that.

My criticism of Woodson is on offense and what he is doing. You have to see that it is completely stagnant at times. We can't beat the Bulls with defense alone they are every bit as good if not better. So are the Heat.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
AUTOADVERT
holfresh
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4/9/2012  7:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/9/2012  7:32 PM
Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...
ChuckBuck
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4/9/2012  7:34 PM
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

It's actually a high percentage shot, because you're giving it to your best player in their scoring zones where they feel comfortable. Especially a post up threat like Melo, that can draw lots of fouls.

loweyecue
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4/9/2012  7:35 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:I had a similar observation about the offense in that I was saying you need more than just a great D when you get into the playoffs and have to face the other great defensive teams. That stuff will cancel each other out and then it DOES COME DOWN TO OFFENSE!!! If you can't execute or score efficiently then you will have problems. The reason a team like Boston is still winning is because of having 4 threats at all times. They put tremendous pressure on teams defensively but then they also can score effectively with a team oriented offense.

I think the best of both worlds would've been to have both MDA and Woody here and a committed Melo. That didn't happen and now over time the offense is devolving and sure not having Lin is a huge reason for some of it, it's not all of the reason things have devolved so much. Woody had to breakout some of the MDA sets in order to get some scoring. Aside from the great shot making of Melo to win the Bulls game, we really have to improve the efficiency of the offense before the playoffs. Early in the Bulls game Melo was actually coming off curls and playing catch and shoot. He wasn't holding the ball and going ISO. When things bogged down and the Bulls caught up it was due to the offense going into too much ISO and not enough ball and Player movement.

Just remember that the Bulls didn't lose in the playoffs last year cuz they couldn't defend. They lost cuz they couldn't score. Scoring is still half of the game no matter how much people only want to talk about Defense. The Bulls caught up and passed the Knicks because they weren't scoring. I was screaming at the TV for them to run a play for Novak and finally Woody ran our old play where we have Novak pop out behind the 3 off a pick. He missed but it was a great look.

You don't think the Bulls had anything to do with the Knicks stagnant offense?

But that's the point isn't it? This is the defense we will face in the playoffs. If it stagnates us and makes us rely on Melo hitting 3s to win - how can you be comfortable about that?

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
Bonn1997
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4/9/2012  7:36 PM
misterearl wrote:Why Don't You Take a Nap?

loweyecue wrote:Why don't you respond to whether we can or can't really beat the Bulls/Heat etc instead of heaping empty sarcasm.

loweyecue - who died and made you the freakin' thread police?

The title describes euphoria being over the top. Did you read any mention of the Bulls/Heat in the heading?

I certainly did not.

I got your "empty sarcasm" (grabbing crotch) right here.

"We're defending much better and offensively we're making shots. We're averaging right at 100 point per game... and our defense is holding opposing teams to 88, 87 points per game. Anytime you do that you're going to put yourself in position to win a lot of games. So that's how we've been playing and I expect us to continue to play that way if we're going to make the playoffs."

- Mike Woodson


Come on, you've definitely played the thread police role before. Loweycue has made several astute observations; no need to drag down the thread just because doesn't agree with you.
ChuckBuck
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4/9/2012  7:38 PM
loweyecue wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:I had a similar observation about the offense in that I was saying you need more than just a great D when you get into the playoffs and have to face the other great defensive teams. That stuff will cancel each other out and then it DOES COME DOWN TO OFFENSE!!! If you can't execute or score efficiently then you will have problems. The reason a team like Boston is still winning is because of having 4 threats at all times. They put tremendous pressure on teams defensively but then they also can score effectively with a team oriented offense.

I think the best of both worlds would've been to have both MDA and Woody here and a committed Melo. That didn't happen and now over time the offense is devolving and sure not having Lin is a huge reason for some of it, it's not all of the reason things have devolved so much. Woody had to breakout some of the MDA sets in order to get some scoring. Aside from the great shot making of Melo to win the Bulls game, we really have to improve the efficiency of the offense before the playoffs. Early in the Bulls game Melo was actually coming off curls and playing catch and shoot. He wasn't holding the ball and going ISO. When things bogged down and the Bulls caught up it was due to the offense going into too much ISO and not enough ball and Player movement.

Just remember that the Bulls didn't lose in the playoffs last year cuz they couldn't defend. They lost cuz they couldn't score. Scoring is still half of the game no matter how much people only want to talk about Defense. The Bulls caught up and passed the Knicks because they weren't scoring. I was screaming at the TV for them to run a play for Novak and finally Woody ran our old play where we have Novak pop out behind the 3 off a pick. He missed but it was a great look.

You don't think the Bulls had anything to do with the Knicks stagnant offense?

But that's the point isn't it? This is the defense we will face in the playoffs. If it stagnates us and makes us rely on Melo hitting 3s to win - how can you be comfortable about that?

The Knicks actually had 11 assists in the first quarter, the Bulls(88.9 points per game allowed) just buckled down on D. Also, if Shumps, JR, and Novak are off, who do you want to take the shot if the offense sputters? No Amare, No Lin...this I gotta hear.

loweyecue
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4/9/2012  7:40 PM
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

But trying to throw it up against double and sometimes triple coverage is not beautiful basketball nor is it a high percentage shot. I am not asking them to go away from Iso play, I was actually calling for a balance between the MDA and Woody styles. I believe that would make us the most dangerous.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
nixluva
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4/9/2012  7:40 PM
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

loweyecue
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4/9/2012  7:44 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:I had a similar observation about the offense in that I was saying you need more than just a great D when you get into the playoffs and have to face the other great defensive teams. That stuff will cancel each other out and then it DOES COME DOWN TO OFFENSE!!! If you can't execute or score efficiently then you will have problems. The reason a team like Boston is still winning is because of having 4 threats at all times. They put tremendous pressure on teams defensively but then they also can score effectively with a team oriented offense.

I think the best of both worlds would've been to have both MDA and Woody here and a committed Melo. That didn't happen and now over time the offense is devolving and sure not having Lin is a huge reason for some of it, it's not all of the reason things have devolved so much. Woody had to breakout some of the MDA sets in order to get some scoring. Aside from the great shot making of Melo to win the Bulls game, we really have to improve the efficiency of the offense before the playoffs. Early in the Bulls game Melo was actually coming off curls and playing catch and shoot. He wasn't holding the ball and going ISO. When things bogged down and the Bulls caught up it was due to the offense going into too much ISO and not enough ball and Player movement.

Just remember that the Bulls didn't lose in the playoffs last year cuz they couldn't defend. They lost cuz they couldn't score. Scoring is still half of the game no matter how much people only want to talk about Defense. The Bulls caught up and passed the Knicks because they weren't scoring. I was screaming at the TV for them to run a play for Novak and finally Woody ran our old play where we have Novak pop out behind the 3 off a pick. He missed but it was a great look.

You don't think the Bulls had anything to do with the Knicks stagnant offense?

But that's the point isn't it? This is the defense we will face in the playoffs. If it stagnates us and makes us rely on Melo hitting 3s to win - how can you be comfortable about that?

The Knicks actually had 11 assists in the first quarter, the Bulls(88.9 points per game allowed) just buckled down on D. Also, if Shumps, JR, and Novak are off, who do you want to take the shot if the offense sputters? No Amare, No Lin...this I gotta hear.

The basis of my argument is that those guys are off because they have no rhythm on offense. And it's the lack of ball movement and ISP heavy offense over multiple games that is getting them out of their comfort zone. Think about it- how many plays we're drawn for any of Tyson, JR, Novak over the past several games. I would think its close to zero. Then how can they suddenly get in their groove against the toughest of all defenses?

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
holfresh
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4/9/2012  7:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/9/2012  7:47 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

nixluva
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4/9/2012  7:49 PM
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

ChuckBuck
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4/9/2012  7:51 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

That Point Forward experiment was the worst coaching decision in Knicks history, next to Don Nelson making Anthony Mason the focal point instead of Patrick Ewing.

holfresh
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4/9/2012  7:52 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

Ok if it was all so good for Melo and Amare under MDA, why did he have to go???..Everyone knows except u Nix...

Bonn1997
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4/9/2012  7:59 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

That Point Forward experiment was the worst coaching decision in Knicks history, next to Don Nelson making Anthony Mason the focal point instead of Patrick Ewing.


That's definitely not what most were saying beforehand.
nixluva
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4/9/2012  8:05 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

That Point Forward experiment was the worst coaching decision in Knicks history, next to Don Nelson making Anthony Mason the focal point instead of Patrick Ewing.


That's definitely not what most were saying beforehand.

Funny but the big 3 Melo took was off his bringing the ball up as the point Forward. He's still doing many of those things where he posts and surveys the court looking for his teammates so he's still using those point forward skills he learned even now.

ChuckBuck
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4/9/2012  8:07 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:Here is the thing...ISO is such a bad word in today's game...Some of the best players that ever played this game were ISO players...Ewing was ISO in the post..Jordan was ISO..Kareem was ISO..It's beautiful basketball to me because each possession means a good look not always jacking up threes from low percentage shooters...ISO and Defense is so HOT...

We all know that ISO is part of the game and actually MDA even acknowledged the need for it. It's not like we never had any ISO's ever. The thing is that your stars can go ISO and succeed, but the rest of the team will do better when you run a team oriented offense that creates open shots for less talented players. End of shot clock, end of game or for key periods of time ISO is very effective, but you don't want a steady diet of it, to the detriment of the team.

This team was winning minus any of it's stars with defense and a team oriented offense. It doesn't have to be either or. It can and should be a bit of both.

That's not how it works NIx, give your best player the ball at the end of the shot clock and tell him score if everything else breaks down...He has to be in rhythm and be part of a flow, he needs touches...JVG said yesterday he rather have Melo take a shot with three guys on him than Jared Jeffries wide open, I agree...Lin was putting up more shots than Amare..How on this planet does that make sense..How???

You're not being accurate in your description of events. STAT was taking fewer shots when he wasn't playing or feeling well, but STAT never had a higher usage rate than when he played for MDA. Melo got PLENTY of shots at all times of the shot clock. He never had the ball in his hands more than this year when he was bringing it up and could call his own number whenever he wanted. Dude just stunk most of the year and that had nothing to do with the coach.

That Point Forward experiment was the worst coaching decision in Knicks history, next to Don Nelson making Anthony Mason the focal point instead of Patrick Ewing.


That's definitely not what most were saying beforehand.

Funny but the big 3 Melo took was off his bringing the ball up as the point Forward. He's still doing many of those things where he posts and surveys the court looking for his teammates so he's still using those point forward skills he learned even now.

Wrong, the Point Forward in the beginning of the year utilized Chandler as a screener. Actually, that's the only play D'Antoni knows, is the high pick and roll.

loweyecue
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4/9/2012  8:09 PM
LOL - we have reverted to the usual D'Antoni thread. Priceless.
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
IrishKnickFan
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4/9/2012  8:12 PM
loweyecue wrote:LOL - we have reverted to the usual D'Antoni thread. Priceless.
I know its stupid
ChuckBuck
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4/9/2012  8:14 PM
loweyecue wrote:LOL - we have reverted to the usual D'Antoni thread. Priceless.

LOL - We have reverted to the usual Bash Melo/Criticize the offense/A win is not good enough thread. Predictable

Silverfuel
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4/9/2012  8:15 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/9/2012  8:16 PM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
loweyecue wrote:LOL - we have reverted to the usual D'Antoni thread. Priceless.
I know its stupid

What is stupid is giving people a hard time for being happy about a big win just because you dont like to see Melo getting credit. What is stupid is asking an injury riddled team to beat Chicago/Miami in a 7 game series when we have had a coach and system change 13 games ago making any success extremely difficult. Euphoria is a strong word, you guys haven't read the situation right.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
This euphoria is a little over the top

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