Sometimes the best trades are the ones that aren't made. Maybe Nazr Mohammed has the makings of an excellent starting center--- but then again... maybe not. :)

"...Everyone's rationale for trading KVH was that the prize in the trade was NM. Per minute, it looks like he's something special. However, the NBA is filled with 15mpg-type backup PF/Cs, many of whom are good for something like 4-6ppg/4-6rpg in 12-18mpg. Conveniently, stretched to a starter's minutes (30-35mpg), you'd expect all of these guys to be capable of producing double-doubles on a regular basis."

So, going with that idea, I can think of quite a few guys generally considered marginal who've put up nice "per-minute" stats in the backup role. Would you play these guys as starters?

Anonymous stats:
Player A:
Averaged 16.3mpg, .510 FG% 4.8ppg, 4.5rpg, .82bpg,
Over 33mpg: 9.6ppg, 9rpg, 1.6bpg

Player B:
He's currently averaging 15mpg, .453 FG%, 3.5ppg, 4.3rpg, 1.6bpg.
Over 33mpg: 7.7ppg, 9.5rpg, 3.5bpg.

Player C:
Averaging 15.3mpg, .519 FG%, 5ppg, 3.7rpg, 1.29bpg.
over 33mpg: 10.5ppg, 7.8rpg, 2.7bpg.

Player D:
In 14.9mpg, .444 FG%, .861FT%, 5ppg, 4.1rpg, .65bpg
over 33mpg: 11ppg, 9rpg, 1.4bpg

Player E:
In 17.7mpg, .493 FG%, 6.5ppg, 5rpg, .51bpg
over 33mpg: 12ppg, 9.3rpg, 0.95bpg

You'd probably want a shotblocker or at least a shotblocking threat as your center, right? Not by Isiah Thomas's logic.

Player A is vintage rookie Travis Knight, circa 96-97.
Player B is Chris Andersen of the Rockies, whose projected numbers as a starter aren't too far off from what you'd expect from a healthy Camby.
Player C is Jerome James, a guy we almost gave the MLE to a few years ago. Heck, on the Sonics you have two other players with virtually identical stats: Calvin Booth & Vitaly Potapenko.
Player D is Michael Doleac as a Knick this season. He has the highest FT% of current NBA centers.
Player E is Nazr Mohammed. Note that he's one of the worst shotblocking centers in the NBA. I don't know if he had bad anticipation or bad hops.

Good stuff, techno.

You're overlooking the fact that Isiah, Aguire et. al. have been successful at developing players. I think they can do that with Nazir and TT. I trust his judgment.

What we have to do is try to trade Marbury and Allan for Kobe Bryant & Payton. Then let all the other bad contracts on the Knicks expire within 2-3 years and then sign a stud Bigman. Keep Frank because he will be the perfect PG. The Knicks will be a true champioship contender. Marbury is a great point guard. Problably the 2nd best behind Kidd but he's only in the top 15-20 players in the NBA. Kobe is problably top 5. He is a superstar and superstars win championships. I think there's a good chance the Lakers do it because both Kobe & Gary want out of LA. If that trade doesn't workout then the Knicks should just stay put and let all their contracts expire then start building a championship team. What they shouldn't do is go after guys like Dampier and Van Exel because although it may improve the team we need a top-notch bigman in order to win it all.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/02/2004 10:13:55]

I forgot where I got this idea from. I think from a NY paper. Yesterday Sid & Jodi were talking about trading Allan Houston for Kobe and how there's no chance the Lakers would do it. I was really pissed off because I was hoping they would realize that they could include Marbury in the trade. Sure enough a caller called up and mentioned the Kobe/payton for marbury/houston trade. Then Sid and Jodi changed their tone. However I'm not sure if it works money-wise because Payton is only making 6mil next year, but maybe we can include a third team to make it work. Kurt Thomas would also be the perfect player to play next to Shaq.

if you want facts the facts, here are some.
doleac is a jumpshooting slow moving center. Doleac has no upside, what you see is what you get. Another fact, the knicks will never be a powerhouse in the east with doleac at center.. FACT..

FACT: Nazr has more upside than doleac,If nazr lives up to that potential which he is in good hands now to achieve that, the knicks will be a much better team and a force in the east... That is a FACT..

This is what I think Zeke was thinking during this trade, we are going nowhere with average players like doleac. Deke traded for the potential and I can live with that..

It's funny--- working on those facts, you'd think that you can pluck any tall athlete and turn them into a star. Does that work? Sometimes, I guess? It sure looks like Dalembert is working out for Philly right now, but he's a clear exception to the rule. Oh yeah, and there's the Ben Wallace phenomenon... and the surprising emergence of Marc Jackson for 1 season... and Jayson Williams...

More often than not, athletes without basketball skills and a head for the game are nothing more than... heh, 15 minute backups at best. Once in a while, we do get surprises who develop late.

Would the Knicks have been better off holding on to KVH, and polishing his already mature game with Aguirre's help... THEN acquiring a young athletic "project" a la Leon Smith, Mikki Moore, Eddie Griffin? I think Doleac is an excellent backup center--- not quick, but a player who hustles and plays solid D.

Would you rather have the athlete with no defensive fundamentals and footwork if you're trying to win a championship?

Thing I am a little surprised that no on has brought up is the fact that Doleac is in a CONTACT year. And he is doing very well. What happens if Isiah didn't trade for Nzar, looses KT to free agency and Doleac gets a large chunk of someone elses mid-level? The Knicks are left with Deke. A very old Deke and the mid-level. If they can't get Wallace, they can still get Doleac back. So Isiah gambles with the TT/KVH switch, gets Nzar for a couple of years and some time with his buddy Aguire and then gets to see if he can pursue Wallace OR Doleac.

I thought we were guaranteed to get Rasheed Wallace? :)

So then we sign Rasheed to play PF and gamble on some "superathletic" projects with higher upside than Mohammed: sign Leon Smith & Eddie Griffin to minimum contracts and develop their great athleticism (and nutty heads) into great players. After all, isn't that what Isiah Thomas is good at?

Then you get:

Mutombo/Smith
Wallace/Harrington
KVH/Griffin/Penny
Houston/Penny
Marbury/FW

Just as the original post suggests, we could also bring back Travis Knight, cuz we know he's capable of some great numbers when given starter minutes. :)

To be honest, the whole point of this post is that the "we did this for Nazr" is a load of crap, since any number of marginal NBA centers fit into that description. If anything he makes a better PF-enforcer of the future, since apparently he doesn't jump on defense-- sounds ideal for drawing charges.

While Doleac is in a contract year, his numbers aren't significantly different from what he's produced earlier in his career. Now... if you want to demote Mutombo into the 12-18mpg backup center role, I guess that's fine. I just don't think Nazr is worthy of the 33mpg starter role.

Worst case scenario had we kept KVH/Doleac:
Kurt leaves as a FA. Doleac leaves as a FA. This leaves approx. 48 minutes of court time to cover. It's losses at 2 positions, which makes the question a little more difficult. Would Kurt not want to go in a sign and trade deal to maximize his money?

We'd need to fill in the 15 minute floor spot w/ a league minimum player. Given the whole point of my post was that it's not THAT hard to find 4-6ppg/4-6rpg 15 minute bigmen, here we go:

Mikki Moore, Travis Knight, Leon Smith, Eddie Griffin, John Amaechi (didn't we waive him), Bruno Sundov, Jason Collier, Zendon Hamilton. I'm sure there are tons of these marginal bigmen playing overseas. Come on, in the summer leagues, we passed up on Brian Skinner-- obviously available. Heck you can also bring in old bodies like Roy Tarpley to adequately fill up 15 minutes. Or redistribute some of these minutes to Sweetney or Trybanski. 15 bench minutes are easy to fill. Go big, go small.

The biggest loss would be at PF (Thomas) as a STARTER, and lo and behold, Rasheed Wallace plays that position. Rasheed would slot PERFECTLY into Thomas's minutes. He's also big enough to play some center, which further adds flexibility if you want to put Sweetney on the floor.

The real problem would be if Kurt Thomas bolted and Rasheed didn't sign with us.

Having Nazr's place secured on the team doesn't necessarily provide a solution to the problem- the jury is out whether he's capable of being a quality starter. Think of it this way--- are there any starting big men in the NBA that have absolutely no offensive game-- other than Ben Wallace?

The saving grace if KT bolted and Rasheed didnt sign would be that we'd still have KVH, a better player than TT. At 6'10", he's man enough to play PF when asked to. We'd have the flexibility to throw in an athletic defensive SF (a Michael Curry / Scott Burrell / Lynch).