This would no doubt be one of Phil's biggest challenges. In the toughest city to try and do it without the best talent in the league leading the team. I just wonder if Phil would risk taking the hit to his legacy or would he view this as the ultimate challenge and crowning accomplishment to his career?

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm on record as saying that as great as PJax is perceived to be he's not a miracle worker. It's not like he dragged so, so teams to the finals every year. Riley's Knicks weren't legendary rosters. Even his Heat team that won a title wasn't a particularly good team outside of DWade and Shaq. http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/roster0506.html It wasn't The Houston Rockets Rudy T. or Detroit Pistons L.B. or even a Rick Carlisle Mavs type challenge.

This would no doubt be one of Phil's biggest challenges. In the toughest city to try and do it without the best talent in the league leading the team. I just wonder if Phil would risk taking the hit to his legacy or would he view this as the ultimate challenge and crowning accomplishment to his career?

That argument though widely used by some especially people who with a predisposition to dislike him (e.g. many kniok fans), is refuted strongly by 1994 (the Jordanless) bulls.

"but he did not win the title .............."

go back and review how that played out.

Either way, it will always be said because it is there and easy to say. These HOFers did not win before him after him or in between. But, it is what it is.

It was not the challenge perhaps of some of the years and coaches that you mentioned but it was also TEN!!!!!!!!

I am not however saying that he was better than Riley who was an incredible coach.

I'm not saying PJax isn't a great coach. I just don't give him this rank as the best coach of all time just cuz he got 10 rings. I do think he's been the most fortunate coach of all time. I also don't believe he's some miracle worker that he can take just about any team to new heights. The Bulls team that you refer to was VERY talented, deep and knew how to play together. They missed the one ingredient that made them unbeatable, but it was still a good team. Like I said Phil is not a miracle worker, but he's a great coach. It's just my personal opinion that i've seen better coaching performances than he's had. All Time Greats can make you look REALLY good.

Why do you think he could sit there with his legs crossed so much??? Have you ever seen a more talented and mentally tough player than Jordan? Jordan was born with that in him. Kobe is almost on that level!!! Have you ever seen a more dominant physical presence than Shaq??? Yes they all needed a quality coach to bring it all together, but it's much easier when you start with a talent level no one else has.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm on record as saying that as great as PJax is perceived to be he's not a miracle worker. It's not like he dragged so, so teams to the finals every year. Riley's Knicks weren't legendary rosters. Even his Heat team that won a title wasn't a particularly good team outside of DWade and Shaq. http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/roster0506.html It wasn't The Houston Rockets Rudy T. or Detroit Pistons L.B. or even a Rick Carlisle Mavs type challenge.

This would no doubt be one of Phil's biggest challenges. In the toughest city to try and do it without the best talent in the league leading the team. I just wonder if Phil would risk taking the hit to his legacy or would he view this as the ultimate challenge and crowning accomplishment to his career?

That argument though widely used by some especially people who with a predisposition to dislike him (e.g. many kniok fans), is refuted strongly by 1994 (the Jordanless) bulls.

"but he did not win the title .............."

go back and review how that played out.

Either way, it will always be said because it is there and easy to say. These HOFers did not win before him after him or in between. But, it is what it is.

It was not the challenge perhaps of some of the years and coaches that you mentioned but it was also TEN!!!!!!!!

I am not however saying that he was better than Riley who was an incredible coach.

I'm not saying PJax isn't a great coach. I just don't give him this rank as the best coach of all time just cuz he got 10 rings. I do think he's been the most fortunate coach of all time. I also don't believe he's some miracle worker that he can take just about any team to new heights. The Bulls team that you refer to was VERY talented, deep and knew how to play together. They missed the one ingredient that made them unbeatable, but it was still a good team. Like I said Phil is not a miracle worker, but he's a great coach. It's just my personal opinion that i've seen better coaching performances than he's had. All Time Greats can make you look REALLY good.

Why do you think he could sit there with his legs crossed so much??? Have you ever seen a more talented and mentally tough player than Jordan? Jordan was born with that in him. Kobe is almost on that level!!! Have you ever seen a more dominant physical presence than Shaq??? Yes they all needed a quality coach to bring it all together, but it's much easier when you start with a talent level no one else has.

I never even came close to saying that he is the greatest coach of all time. I actually think that Riley was a better coach.

But, I give the man his due.

You sometimes say he is a great coach but look to diss him alot. I hope you are not putting MDA in his league because even if you believe that deep down, it is sacrilegious to even mention it.

He had great players but so did Riley, Aurbach ... it will always be a bit of an asterisk to some and to him like a mosquito and for that, I am hoping that he wants this challenge. So fans such as you won't be able to keep saying that.

Even with all that asterisk stuff - he over comes it a bit with the sheer number of rings.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm on record as saying that as great as PJax is perceived to be he's not a miracle worker. It's not like he dragged so, so teams to the finals every year. Riley's Knicks weren't legendary rosters. Even his Heat team that won a title wasn't a particularly good team outside of DWade and Shaq. http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/roster0506.html It wasn't The Houston Rockets Rudy T. or Detroit Pistons L.B. or even a Rick Carlisle Mavs type challenge.

This would no doubt be one of Phil's biggest challenges. In the toughest city to try and do it without the best talent in the league leading the team. I just wonder if Phil would risk taking the hit to his legacy or would he view this as the ultimate challenge and crowning accomplishment to his career?

That argument though widely used by some especially people who with a predisposition to dislike him (e.g. many kniok fans), is refuted strongly by 1994 (the Jordanless) bulls.

"but he did not win the title .............."

go back and review how that played out.

Either way, it will always be said because it is there and easy to say. These HOFers did not win before him after him or in between. But, it is what it is.

It was not the challenge perhaps of some of the years and coaches that you mentioned but it was also TEN!!!!!!!!

I am not however saying that he was better than Riley who was an incredible coach.

I'm not saying PJax isn't a great coach. I just don't give him this rank as the best coach of all time just cuz he got 10 rings. I do think he's been the most fortunate coach of all time. I also don't believe he's some miracle worker that he can take just about any team to new heights. The Bulls team that you refer to was VERY talented, deep and knew how to play together. They missed the one ingredient that made them unbeatable, but it was still a good team. Like I said Phil is not a miracle worker, but he's a great coach. It's just my personal opinion that i've seen better coaching performances than he's had. All Time Greats can make you look REALLY good.

Why do you think he could sit there with his legs crossed so much??? Have you ever seen a more talented and mentally tough player than Jordan? Jordan was born with that in him. Kobe is almost on that level!!! Have you ever seen a more dominant physical presence than Shaq??? Yes they all needed a quality coach to bring it all together, but it's much easier when you start with a talent level no one else has.

I never even came close to saying that he is the greatest coach of all time. I actually think that Riley was a better coach.

But, I give the man his due.

You sometimes say he is a great coach but look to diss him alot. I hope you are not putting MDA in his league because even if you believe that deep down, it is sacrilegious to even mention it.

He had great players but so did Riley, Aurbach ... it will always be a bit of an asterisk to some and to him like a mosquito and for that, I am hoping that he wants this challenge. So fans such as you won't be able to keep saying that.

Even with all that asterisk stuff - he over comes it a bit with the sheer number of rings.

If you win multiple titles you have to be a great coach. I just try to interject some reason at the same time. He's not the only coach that could've won multiple titles with the talent he had. That's the question I ask myself. You watched all of Jordan's career. How can you not marvel at his singular talent and mental toughness??? No one could match him. You think that his hitting unreal game winning shots or making spectacular defensive plays had anything to do with Phil Jackson??? NO! Phil road Secretariat to the finish line. I'm sure he did great work with the rest of the team and that's why he's a great coach. But make no mistake what put him over the threshold was the greatness of his players, like most great coaches. Him more than others.

MDA road Nash/Seattle Slew to a 24 million dollar contract. That ain't bad.

Erniecat wrote:Why do people have to say that it was either the superstars who gave Jackson the rings, or Jackson who gave the superstars the rings?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Jackson was a great coach, and he had great players. That's why his teams won all those titles.

To say that any coach could have done what he did is pretty ridiculous. And to say that he could have done what he did without having some of the all-time great players on his side also is ridiculous.

I do not think Jordan would have all those rings without Phil, and vice versa.

Nothing wrong with that.

It is impossible to win 11 titles without great players, but it is also impossible to win 11 titles without being a great coach.

Very well put.

Erniecat wrote:Why do people have to say that it was either the superstars who gave Jackson the rings, or Jackson who gave the superstars the rings?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Jackson was a great coach, and he had great players. That's why his teams won all those titles.

To say that any coach could have done what he did is pretty ridiculous. And to say that he could have done what he did without having some of the all-time great players on his side also is ridiculous.

I do not think Jordan would have all those rings without Phil, and vice versa.

Nothing wrong with that.

It is impossible to win 11 titles without great players, but it is also impossible to win 11 titles without being a great coach.

Bottom line: A coach is judged on how well he maximizes his talent, and in his 19 seasons as an NBA coach, Jax almost always got the absolute most out of his teams.

Good job.

Common perception is that those teams were just stacked and "Waiting" for Phil.

Actually Riley was most fortunate in Laker land with showtime already having won a championship with that roster.

With PJax, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Phil got more rings than fingers. Great coaches have great players.

TheSage wrote:Jackson, Riley and Auerbach all had a few things in common they had key players, a sound system, knowledge and leadership but the one thing which places Red above the others is that he built the teams he coached- he traded an all star center fora draft choice, he drafted a junior and waited a year for him to graduate. No other coach built and coached like that. Since we are talking Jackson-he walked into a situation in Chicago where he got arguably the greatest player of all time together with a great no. 2 and built a system around them, walked into a situation where the players worked well in his system. Do the knick players fit his system? Can they fit it-does he really want the headaches, the media frenzy?

He inherietd a team that won 47 games the year before.

Most look at the names and they were in place but think they were going to be great anyway.

He grew that team.

Riley took over a team that had one a championship inside of 18 mos. They already were champs.

Big difference.

Red Auerbach did it as a coach, and them as GM. Dude was amazing.

Riley went to knicks and did not get it done, and Only had one chip in Miami after being JVG's Biitch with playoff loses except for the "fight".

Riley is over rated.

Look at Phil Jaxs roster objectively. He won with a lot of role players stepping up and doing amazing things.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm on record as saying that as great as PJax is perceived to be he's not a miracle worker. It's not like he dragged so, so teams to the finals every year. Riley's Knicks weren't legendary rosters. Even his Heat team that won a title wasn't a particularly good team outside of DWade and Shaq. http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/roster0506.html It wasn't The Houston Rockets Rudy T. or Detroit Pistons L.B. or even a Rick Carlisle Mavs type challenge.

This would no doubt be one of Phil's biggest challenges. In the toughest city to try and do it without the best talent in the league leading the team. I just wonder if Phil would risk taking the hit to his legacy or would he view this as the ultimate challenge and crowning accomplishment to his career?

That argument though widely used by some especially people who with a predisposition to dislike him (e.g. many kniok fans), is refuted strongly by 1994 (the Jordanless) bulls.

"but he did not win the title .............."

go back and review how that played out.

Either way, it will always be said because it is there and easy to say. These HOFers did not win before him after him or in between. But, it is what it is.

It was not the challenge perhaps of some of the years and coaches that you mentioned but it was also TEN!!!!!!!!

I am not however saying that he was better than Riley who was an incredible coach.

I'm not saying PJax isn't a great coach. I just don't give him this rank as the best coach of all time just cuz he got 10 rings. I do think he's been the most fortunate coach of all time. I also don't believe he's some miracle worker that he can take just about any team to new heights. The Bulls team that you refer to was VERY talented, deep and knew how to play together. They missed the one ingredient that made them unbeatable, but it was still a good team. Like I said Phil is not a miracle worker, but he's a great coach. It's just my personal opinion that i've seen better coaching performances than he's had. All Time Greats can make you look REALLY good.

Why do you think he could sit there with his legs crossed so much??? Have you ever seen a more talented and mentally tough player than Jordan? Jordan was born with that in him. Kobe is almost on that level!!! Have you ever seen a more dominant physical presence than Shaq??? Yes they all needed a quality coach to bring it all together, but it's much easier when you start with a talent level no one else has.

Curious, who do you rank ahead of him?