However, if we do not get a PG and/or Baron DittySavior fails, gets hurt does not work well in the system ...

What then? The same valid/invalid excuses remain!

-No PG
-Bad Trade for Melo
-Feilds is not a real 2
-Shump was not such a great pick (After All) - (Though, you tried to give MDA credit - rethink?)
-Many other valid / invalid excuses

So, you will be screaming at the EOY that "look at this stat" "look at xx efficiency" ... and you will make very strong/weak arguments to keep him.

So, while he is not winning and it is not his fault, should he just stay forever?

Heck! He did not make the Effin trade!! He should never leave!

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

Yeah I understand that aspect but you don't have them completely go away from what this team does when you hope to eventually add a PG that CAN run the system. This isn't about just the 1st 20 games. You have to take a long view. Their intent is to have a PG that can run the system in Baron and then probably add another one like Nash next year. STAT and Tyson are PnR players, that's what they do and that is the #1 play for this offense. Just about everyone else is a spot up shooter which also fits this spread offense. This team isn't running. They're playing slower halfcourt BB. Players simply have to execute better.

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

Does a grind it out strategy really work? That's Amare/Melo iso ball with shooters shooting from distance to spread the floor. Amare is not a post up player really, so he is negated a lot. And Melo can do post work but his ISO ball is exactly what is hurting the Knicks right now.

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

Yeah I understand that aspect but you don't have them completely go away from what this team does when you hope to eventually add a PG that CAN run the system. This isn't about just the 1st 20 games. You have to take a long view. Their intent is to have a PG that can run the system in Baron and then probably add another one like Nash next year. STAT and Tyson are PnR players, that's what they do and that is the #1 play for this offense. Just about everyone else is a spot up shooter which also fits this spread offense. This team isn't running. They're playing slower halfcourt BB. Players simply have to execute better.

fair enough. I don't have any qualms with running this system over the long haul and down the road. But in the short term?

I've been reading a lot of football articles today. One of them was talking about Bill Belichick and his defense. Even though he favors the 3-4 defense, he started the year with a 4-3 because the former, according to him, requires greater knowledge and execution of the details. As the season progressed, the team worked in the 3-4 and defended that way. But along the way, all that preparation paid of big time as the Patriots used both packages equally in the playoffs and especially against the Ravens, which confused the fekk out of them.

I think we can agree Pringles' offense, when run correctly, is pretty nuanced. I think we can also agree, a grind-it-out 90s offense takes less refinement. So why not go with the easier to learn style now? Why not practice the more complicated offense and use it when it is ready to be used?

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

Does a grind it out strategy really work? That's Amare/Melo iso ball with shooters shooting from distance to spread the floor. Amare is not a post up player really, so he is negated a lot. And Melo can do post work but his ISO ball is exactly what is hurting the Knicks right now.

I would say, yes, the grind-it-out strategy would work, at least in the short term. I think Amar'e would work a nice high post game. I think Melo would work a nice low post game. I like players like Douglas and Shumpert a whole lot more when they are reigned in and have limited options. I also think that Melo's ISO ball hurts the Knicks in the context of Pringles' system, but could be a huge asset in another system

Defenses play differently now. There is much more of a team style where teams are using matchup zones and tons of help D. There's very little pure man to man D. If you try to go ISO you get what Melo has been doing, which is forcing shots against more than one defender.

Teams are able to pack the paint against STAT cuz we haven't had any shooting or PG penetration. Also without our guards actually trying to run PnR, there are no open midrange jumpers like you see Nash and Felton got in this offense. TD doesn't like to drive and even when he does, he's not very good at finishing. Bibby can't really drive. Lin can drive, kick and finish and is the only hope of the healthy guards we have.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm sorry, but the system shouldn't dictate the players. The players should dictate the system.

Coming into this season, some others and myself were saying that the frontcourt may be the best in the NBA but the backcourt is probably the worst. Why on God's green earth would you continue to employ a system that emphasizes and highlight's this roster's major weakness?

I'm sure Pat Riley wanted to bring the Showtime style of play that he was known for to NY but he didn't. He went a completely different route. That's what great coaches do. Kind of what Greg Popovich did in that last quote

What you're saying is strange in that TD, Fields, Walker all played in this system last year. STAT and Melo have played in this system. Tyson is a PnR Center! Novak and Bibby are spot up shooters. Basically the main components of the team aren't unfamiliar with this style at all. The only thing that was at issue was the lack of a Capable PG.

They tried to address that with using more of the halfcourt aspects of the system, which is a HUGE part of the system that no one talks about. Most of STAT's points come in the halfcourt spread offense set using the PnR. TD should know how to do this by now, but he's gotten worse. He avoids it and gives up his dribble too soon. I'm pretty sure they have worked with him on the PnR for years now. Every once in a while he actually runs the play and it works.

You saw them working the weave and it worked. They have used Curls far too infrequently. There are things these players could be doing, but they get lazy and jack 3's. That's why STAT and Tyson blasted them in the press.

I wasn't talking about familiarity and experience that the guards have in this system. I wasn't talking about the bigs at all.

Just because some of the guards have experience with this system, does not make it an ideal fit. There is a great deal of responsibility with the guards.

A 90s style grindout would probably work best with this roster, as giving the other team more offensive possessions allows them more opportunities to exploit the guards. Keep the score close. Let Melo/Amar'e shoot at the end of the game for the game.

All those other teams you mentioned, they have an elite ballhandler/decisionmake, whether it be Westbrook, LeBron, Wade, Manu, or Parker. The NY Knicks have the talent of Toney Douglas and Mike Bibby and the experience nad savvy of Iman Shumpert and Jeremy Lin

Does a grind it out strategy really work? That's Amare/Melo iso ball with shooters shooting from distance to spread the floor. Amare is not a post up player really, so he is negated a lot. And Melo can do post work but his ISO ball is exactly what is hurting the Knicks right now.

I would say, yes, the grind-it-out strategy would work, at least in the short term. I think Amar'e would work a nice high post game. I think Melo would work a nice low post game. I like players like Douglas and Shumpert a whole lot more when they are reigned in and have limited options. I also think that Melo's ISO ball hurts the Knicks in the context of Pringles' system, but could be a huge asset in another system

SC, you've been all over htis, totally agree with you. Our frontcourt is our strength, yet we move the ball east and west and end up with multiple low percentage shots from our weak backcourt. Makes zero sense.

And this idea that Iso ball is bad is mind boggling. Yes, you dont want to Iso, 48 mins per, but it is necessary. Anybody wacth the finals last year when Dirk and Wade took turns iso-balling at the end of the games? How about D Rose Isoing the Bulls all the way to the eastern conference finals? You need a closer, and Melo is one of the best in the league. The system we are running is all wrong.