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Is D'Antoni the problem?
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subzero0
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It happens over and over again in the NBA. Coaches get fired when the team cant win games. But many times after a team has fired one coach and hired another the team rarely improves until one or many player moves are made. There are a lot of fingers being pointed at D'Antoni. But I must ask, how many think that this is really the coaches fault? I cant imagine any other coach coming in here and being successful with this group.

I think the problem with the Knicks are the players not the coach. I dont think red auerbach himself can get this team to win a championship against these other nba teams at least to me. Amare is obviously hurt and has not practiced this past offseason, Carmelo still has the weight on him and cannot carry the team by himself and there is no good point guard here. Our shooting guard, whether it be douglas, fields or shumphert cant hit the open shot. How is that D'Antoni's fault. With all the strategies you can draw up, all of the video sessions you give, if the players cant hit their jumpshots there is really not much you can do about that. But this is just me. Out of my surprise at all the blame being pointed at D'Antoni, I must ask how much of us believe this is the coaches fault and believe another coach will get them to all of a sudden become a championship caliber team and how many of us think that this rests on the players and this team was constructed flawedly?

D'Antoni needs to be on the next bus!
Time to get rid of some players and start wheeling and dealing, this is on them.
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SupremeCommander
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1/27/2012  3:48 PM
I don't think he is 'the' problem, but he is a problem of many
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
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Nalod
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1/27/2012  3:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/27/2012  3:51 PM
Neither......

We have Baron and perhaps apprentice Lin to fill a need.

18 games with this roster is not enough time.

Tyson Chandler is a big piece, as is Baron.

Blend it all together takes time.

What needs to be managed is expectations.

This is not a championship team. Not on paper, and not on the court.

If you'll think cuz a coach says some rah-rah, or a player and believe it, then we have to talk about the easter bunny and Santa also.

Change for the sake of change is not always and improvement.

Fans don't usually get it. They are emotional and want a quick instant gradification fix.


After Wilkens.....Herb......Larry......Isiah.......does anyone see a pattern?
OasisBU
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1/27/2012  3:58 PM
I think its our roster, we definitely gave up way too much for Melo and it becomes more apparent every day. The roster is flawed, granted Mike D should be doing everything he can to get W's but I am not sure there is much more he can do.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
s3231
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1/27/2012  4:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/27/2012  4:14 PM
Maybe D'Antoni could have done a better job adapting his offense once he saw our PGs couldn't get it done but I don't even blame him for that because how are you going to install a new offense in after the start of the season (a season where we play 4 games in 5 nights at that)? Especially considering our 3 core guys haven't played much together to begin with and constantly changing our offense wouldn't help things....not to mention, D'Antoni probably thought we could at least stay around .500 at worst until Baron comes back.

I really don't think this is on D'Antoni. The personnel is flawed and several of us knew that after the Chandler trade happened (I liked the deal but thought it came with the expectation that we were taking a step back in the short-term until we found a PG). I just don't think any of us thought that Toney Douglas would be this awful....whether it is his injury or w/e, he has never shot this poorly before and having a PG that can't shoot in a D'Antoni offense is toxic.

Our bench is incredibly thin and a lot of the guys that we put out there on a nightly basis would never see the light of day on contending teams. I mean, we have 2nd round picks getting major minutes out there and a lot of unproven youth. The good thing about Baron coming back is if he can play at a high level, at least that will allow us to move a starter to our bench....making it stronger by default.

Overall, the team really isn't this bad and I strongly believe with a healthy Melo, we're a top 5 team in the East (still not at Miami/Chicago level unless we get great play at the PG position). That Melo injury has really killed us.....

"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
nyk4ever
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1/27/2012  4:14 PM
i don't like either option.

i don't think dantoni is without blame but blowing up the roster isnt the answer. we just need more depth and better players to put around melo, chandler and amear.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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1/27/2012  4:23 PM
You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...
arkrud
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1/27/2012  4:39 PM
Mike is not a problem but he is not a solution any more.
You need to use equipment as stated in the manual.
Mike is not going to win anything with this players (and probably nobody will).
Engine from Maserati, body from F150, and the rest from Kia... Nice car rolling....
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bippity10
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1/27/2012  4:40 PM
holfresh wrote:You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...

See I think that MDA has adjusted. We haven't run the Phoenix version of SSOL since we had Gallo and those guys. When Carmelo and Billups were here we slowed down completely and we haven't run since. He has abandoned the traditional PG route andis using a point forward approach. What other adjustments could he make???

Not a D'Antoni fan but I find myself constantly defending him. I'm just not sure how we expect a coach to do a good job when we turn over the roster 3 times in 3 seasons, once midseason and once with a limited training camp. Plus we got players that don't match the style that made him successful in Phoenix. Pretty tough to win under those circumstances

I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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1/27/2012  4:44 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...

See I think that MDA has adjusted. We haven't run the Phoenix version of SSOL since we had Gallo and those guys. When Carmelo and Billups were here we slowed down completely and we haven't run since. He has abandoned the traditional PG route andis using a point forward approach. What other adjustments could he make???

Not a D'Antoni fan but I find myself constantly defending him. I'm just not sure how we expect a coach to do a good job when we turn over the roster 3 times in 3 seasons, once midseason and once with a limited training camp. Plus we got players that don't match the style that made him successful in Phoenix. Pretty tough to win under those circumstances

True he isn't running the classic SSOL...It's the volume of the three point shooting that's killing me...I do agree we need time tho...
Bippity10
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1/27/2012  4:50 PM
holfresh wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...

See I think that MDA has adjusted. We haven't run the Phoenix version of SSOL since we had Gallo and those guys. When Carmelo and Billups were here we slowed down completely and we haven't run since. He has abandoned the traditional PG route andis using a point forward approach. What other adjustments could he make???

Not a D'Antoni fan but I find myself constantly defending him. I'm just not sure how we expect a coach to do a good job when we turn over the roster 3 times in 3 seasons, once midseason and once with a limited training camp. Plus we got players that don't match the style that made him successful in Phoenix. Pretty tough to win under those circumstances

True he isn't running the classic SSOL...It's the volume of the three point shooting that's killing me...I do agree we need time tho...

Agreed. I think D'Antoni likes a lot of three pointers but I don't think he designed his offense for the flings that we throw up there. I htink the main problem with D'Antoni is that his offense is designed to give freedom to players and once they get that freedom some players don't understand what that means. D'Antoni never reins that in, when it's obvious that he should. End result, 3-45 with 45 contested 3's

I just hope that people will like me
MarburyAnd1Crossover
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1/27/2012  5:24 PM
D'Antoni, in a vacuum, is not the problem.

The problem is the mixture.

I will always tell you that it's not the individual pieces, whether coach or player, but the connections between these pieces.

No one is to blame but the guy up top that forced the last trade, the trade turned this team into a cluster****.

Carmelo Anthony is ANTI-BASKETBALL
gunsnewing
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1/27/2012  5:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/27/2012  5:46 PM
let's not make SSOL out to be the end all be all of systems. Bottomline is you need to play D to win the championship. Just look at Dallas, Lakers, Celtics, Miami, Spurs, Detroit and so on and so forth. Even Cleveland & Miami got close
JCrusher
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1/27/2012  6:29 PM
D'antoni is part of the problem but gthe main one is that this team doesn't fit. amare and melo just dont fit. I mean how much time do you need 3 years. I mean they aren't getting any younger. I think D'antoni should go but any coach is gonna have a tough time with the way this team is constructed. Damn why couldn't dolan just let donnie do his damn job
loweyecue
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1/27/2012  6:41 PM
Nalod wrote:Neither......

We have Baron and perhaps apprentice Lin to fill a need.

18 games with this roster is not enough time.

Tyson Chandler is a big piece, as is Baron.

Blend it all together takes time.

What needs to be managed is expectations.

This is not a championship team. Not on paper, and not on the court.

If you'll think cuz a coach says some rah-rah, or a player and believe it, then we have to talk about the easter bunny and Santa also.

Change for the sake of change is not always and improvement.

Fans don't usually get it. They are emotional and want a quick instant gradification fix.


After Wilkens.....Herb......Larry......Isiah.......does anyone see a pattern?

Ditto.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
nixluva
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1/27/2012  6:54 PM
Amare and Melo don't have to fit each other, they have to fit the TEAM. The system as it was designed isn't about wild 3's and never has been. I wish people would stop saying that. Just cuz we have players that aren't executing the offense properly doesn't mean that taking too many 3's is the design of the offense. The 3 does become a huge weapon when you execute on offense and go inside 1st. That's the actual goal of almost every play in MDA's playbook. Create spacing and then attack the basket. If the defense adjust well then you pass back out for the open and very high % 3pt shot. How else do you think he's had one of the most potent and efficient offense when it's run correctly. The proof is in the record.

2011-12 with TD, Shump, Bibby    - #15 in scoring, #24 in Offensive Efficiency
2010-11 with Felton, TD, CB      - #2  in scoring, #5  in Off. Eff.
2009-10 with Duhon, TD, Hughes   - #10 in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2008-09 with Duhon, Nate, Hughes - #4  in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2007-08 with Nash                - #3  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2006-07 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.
2005-06 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2004-05 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.

At the same time the team is #7 in the league in defensive efficiency, but you can't tell cuz any mistake we make is exaggerated cuz we can't score. People were made to hear he was using the same defensive system, but in all honesty this is the best defensive team performance he's ever had. If the offense was doing what it's supposed to do, this would be a top team. GIVE THIS MAN A PG AND ALL THE COMPLAINING STOPS!

Hoping our guards step up from here on out.
Uptown
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1/27/2012  7:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/27/2012  7:12 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...

See I think that MDA has adjusted. We haven't run the Phoenix version of SSOL since we had Gallo and those guys. When Carmelo and Billups were here we slowed down completely and we haven't run since. He has abandoned the traditional PG route andis using a point forward approach. What other adjustments could he make???

Not a D'Antoni fan but I find myself constantly defending him. I'm just not sure how we expect a coach to do a good job when we turn over the roster 3 times in 3 seasons, once midseason and once with a limited training camp. Plus we got players that don't match the style that made him successful in Phoenix. Pretty tough to win under those circumstances

True he isn't running the classic SSOL...It's the volume of the three point shooting that's killing me...I do agree we need time tho...

Agreed. I think D'Antoni likes a lot of three pointers but I don't think he designed his offense for the flings that we throw up there. I htink the main problem with D'Antoni is that his offense is designed to give freedom to players and once they get that freedom some players don't understand what that means. D'Antoni never reins that in, when it's obvious that he should. End result, 3-45 with 45 contested 3's

Outside of the offense, the defensive system that we have employed this year also leaves a lot to be desired. This switching philosophy is head scratching. We bring in one of the best paint defenders in the in the league in Chandler, yet we switch on ever pick nulifying his effectiveness.

How many times did we see Chandler guard Nash and Jennings on the switch of the pick-n-roll only to get burned by the quicker quard. Then Robin Lopez looked like Wilt in the paint because Shump switched off to guard him. Its too easy to game plan against us. Simply run pick and roll and exploit the mismatches. Unless you are the '83 Louisville Cardinals and everyone on the roster is between 6'6 and 6'9, you have no business switching on every pick. That defensive philosophy has cost us games, particularly the Suns and Magic games....
CrushAlot
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1/27/2012  7:23 PM
I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
loweyecue
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1/27/2012  7:26 PM
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
CrushAlot
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1/27/2012  7:28 PM
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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1/27/2012  7:28 PM
Uptown wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
holfresh wrote:You can't blame MDA for this...It's not his fault nor is it the player's fault...You need time and better back court play...Carmelo is not a point forward...The Knicks need a pick and roll point guard to get Amare back to where he was...Then we work Carmelo into that offensive scheme...My big problem with MDA is that he has to cut down the wild threes..He has to play to his strength...Carmelo can do what LeBron has spent the offseason learning, he can post, pass, his mid range game is awesome...Chandler's baskets can come off attention being played to the stars...We do need a PG that can pick and roll...

I'm not a fan of MDA...He is too rigid...he needs to adapt to his roster...If he thinks he can run SSOL with this roster he is mistaken...It's not his fault but we should be playing better...But it will be ugly for a while...I really hope we don't panic and just play thru this...They will figure it out...

See I think that MDA has adjusted. We haven't run the Phoenix version of SSOL since we had Gallo and those guys. When Carmelo and Billups were here we slowed down completely and we haven't run since. He has abandoned the traditional PG route andis using a point forward approach. What other adjustments could he make???

Not a D'Antoni fan but I find myself constantly defending him. I'm just not sure how we expect a coach to do a good job when we turn over the roster 3 times in 3 seasons, once midseason and once with a limited training camp. Plus we got players that don't match the style that made him successful in Phoenix. Pretty tough to win under those circumstances

True he isn't running the classic SSOL...It's the volume of the three point shooting that's killing me...I do agree we need time tho...

Agreed. I think D'Antoni likes a lot of three pointers but I don't think he designed his offense for the flings that we throw up there. I htink the main problem with D'Antoni is that his offense is designed to give freedom to players and once they get that freedom some players don't understand what that means. D'Antoni never reins that in, when it's obvious that he should. End result, 3-45 with 45 contested 3's

Outside of the offense, the defensive system that we have employed this year also leaves a lot to be desired. This switching philosophy is head scratching. We bring in one of the best paint defenders in the in the league in Chandler, yet we switch on ever pick nulifying his effectiveness.

How many times did we see Chandler guard Nash and Jennings on the switch of the pick-n-roll only to get burned by the quicker quard. Then Robin Lopez looked like Wilt in the paint because Shump switched off to guard him. Its too easy to game plan against us. Simply run pick and roll and exploit the mismatches. Unless you are the '83 Louisville Cardinals and everyone on the roster is between 6'6 and 6'9, you have no business switching on every pick. That defensive philosophy has cost us games, particularly the Suns and Magic games....

The defense is still a work in progress, but right now the team is ranked #7 in Defensive efficiency. They can get better on Defense, but it's MUCH better than in previous years. We've lost most of our games due to a lack of offense and not defense. You can nitpick a game or 2 where the D sucked but overall that hasn't been the case.
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