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Whoa. Great article on the Negotiations - What went wrong; Why; Whose Fault
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Markji
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11/19/2011  11:41 AM
A great article, long but very much worth the read. Describing what went wrong at each stage and who and why they blew it. Stern! Hunter! The Owners! The Players! The Agents!
We are at quite an impass. Too many egos. Too many personal issues. Too much hatred and mistrust. I think it was wise for the players to bring in a new legal team. That's the new hope because the old team and negotiations are gone.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7250994/business-vs-personal

Some long excerpts:

Business Vs. Personal
The two sides of the NBA lockout are taking opposite approaches and have created a "nuclear winter" in professional hoops
By Bill SimmonsPOSTED NOVEMBER 18, 2011

Hagen: Your father wouldn't want to hear this, Sonny. This is business not personal.
Sonny: They shoot my father and it's business, my ass!
Hagen: Even shooting your father was business not personal, Sonny!
Sonny: Well then, business is going to have to suffer.

That's one of the most famous scenes from one of the most famous movies ever made. You know how things end for Sonny Corleone — he ignores his consigliere, makes it personal and ends up gorging on a bowl of bullets parmigiana.......

"For years owners have treated players as if they are just their property," (agent Aaron)Goodwin said, "fining them over how they dress, act, everything. This is the first time the players have the opportunity to say no."

Whoa. For months and months, bubbling beneath the surface of the posturing and rhetoric, buried under anonymous leaks, veiled threats and everything else that makes any professional sports lockout or strike so insufferable, a dynamic had been swelling that was entirely, 100 percent personal.......

Let's look at the second part of Goodwin's quote …

For years owners have treated players as if they are just their property — fining them over how they dress, act, everything.

That's not an outlandish claim. For the past twelve years (since our last labor shutdown), Stern capped contracts and rookie deals so players didn't get paid too much (or too much right away). He instituted a mandatory dress code so injured players looked more professional (translation: less "urban"). He cracked down on taunting during games, physical play, leaving the bench during altercations and anything else that might lead to another Artest Melee or Kermit/Rudy scenario. He pushed players to participate in "NBA Cares," fined them for not showing up on time to All-Star Weekend, fined them for avoiding the press during the playoffs and basically treated them like an overbearing high school principal. And, of course, he made every decision in his typically smug, sarcastic, endearing-or-bullying-depending-on-how-you-feel-about-him manner.3

He's clearly wearing out the players … and not in a good way. During one of Stern's typically biting lectures in a crucial labor meeting two months ago, Dwyane Wade snapped and yelled at him, "Don't you point your finger at me!" That was personal, not business. That was Wade telling Stern, "Fuck you, you're not my dad. We're tired of your condescending bull****. It's not happening anymore."

.......Here were the offending parties in no particular order.

1. Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher
Imagine riding in a car with someone who doesn't care if he dies. He's driving 100 miles an hour on the highway and cackling like a maniac. You're asking him to slow down. He asks, "What's it worth to you?" You stammer. He says, "Unless you give me everything in your wallet right now, I'm driving into that highway divider up there." You have to make a decision: Do you pay him, or do you think he's bluffing?

Well, you pay him. Quickly. You don't want to find out if he values his life less than you value yours.

Guess who had the leverage that whole time? That's right … the suicidal maniac driving the car. And really, that's how the latest NBA lockout played out. We have known for nearly three years that the NBA owners (a) wanted to change the financial structure of their business, and (b) didn't care how they did it, just that it happened. If they lost 30 games of the 2011-12 season to get what they wanted, fine. If they lost the season, fine. If they lost three seasons, fine. They didn't care. Just don't ask them a question like, "If you're so unhappy owning your NBA franchise, why don't you just sell it?" See, heading into the summer of 2011, your average NBA franchise was more valuable for the investment itself than for the revenue it yielded. That's pretty liberating — if you don't care that your business stops, how can anyone possibly negotiate with you? You're basically driving them towards that highway divider and asking for their wallet.............

..........You can't oversell how disorganized Hunter's side has been — especially last weekend and on Monday, when they never allowed the players to vote, failed to give them enough information and couldn't even wrangle every player rep to Monday's meeting in New York. It took them five solid days to respond to Stern's offer; instead of countering with four or five system tweaks like Stern expected (he would never admit that publicly because it would belie his whole "take it or leave it" stance, but it's true), the players simply shredded it and launched the NBA's "nuclear winter" (Stern's words, and really, his only inspired moment of the past few months). Anyone who commends the players for standing up for themselves should mention that, during those five days — which doubled as the five most essential days in the recent history of the players association — many players couldn't even get in touch with their team reps (much less Hunter or Fisher). Those players were standing up for themselves, all right — they were standing up to make sure they had cell phone reception because nobody was emailing them any updates. What a mess. If I wrote a book about the 2011 NBA Lockout, it would either be called Cluster****! or CLUSTERFUCK!

...............2. The Owners
Either they never wanted a season (and lied this whole time), or they badly misread the players' resolve and their growing contempt for Stern. It's one or the other. Hmmmmmmm. Let's lie and pretend they wanted a season. Who "negotiates" like that? Why were they going for Eff You touchdowns like the post-Spygate Patriots? Why weren't they more magnanimous? Why did they try to win every single issue? Whatever happened to the concept of "I want to win, but I also want to be fair because these are my partners for the next 10 years?"


............One thing's for sure: If Stern believed they were that close (and I know for a fact he did), then he totally failed and totally underestimated how the players felt. Not their resolve, just how they felt. Maybe that's why he seemed visibly stunned afterwards, blaming Hunter and Kessler when the reasons were so much more complex. The players know they have terrible leadership. Their agents have been telling them that for months and months and months. And at this point, they don't care. Even though Hunter was an unequivocal disaster these past few months — his lack of urgency was stupefying, his lack of a coherent strategy was almost criminal, his summer media strategy couldn't have been worse, and his inability to keep his 450 players in the loop from day to day was inexplicable — the players kept following him and Fisher if only because the other option (trusting Stern and the owners) was less palatable. How can someone run a sports league for 28 years and lose the trust of his players that completely? And how could he possibly expect to win that trust back?

(The short answer: He won't. It's gone.)

3. The Pampering Issue
Your typical NBA owner operates like a sugar daddy of sorts. He coddles his players, flies them on chartered planes, serves them gourmet meals on those planes, puts them up in five-star hotels, builds them state-of-the-art practice facilities, hires them the best possible training staffs, sneaks them extra tickets for every game, enables their entourages, builds ticket campaigns around them, kisses their asses and (in some cases) even allows their friends to hitch rides on team charters. That's the real reason Dan Gilbert was so pissed off two years ago — after giving LeBron everything he wanted for years and years, LeBron never had the courtesy to call before he picked Miami. Gilbert felt more like a spurned boyfriend than anything (and acted like it)......

................You know what the real irony is? The owners' last proposal actually made a ton of sense. Read Howard Beck's breakdown of what it would have looked like, potentially, and try to find ONE thing that isn't logical. Contracts should be shorter so fans aren't getting constantly turned off by that relentlessly overpaid mediocrity. The gap between big market teams and small market teams should be smaller. A team like Cleveland should have a more favorable chance to keep its best player. A star like Carmelo shouldn't be able to force a trade and get rewarded with a mammoth extension. The mid-level exception should be tempered — it spawned too many dumb contracts and made it harder for teams to improve. What's wrong with coming up with a smarter model in which the right money goes to the right people? That's a bad thing?

4. The Agents
If the players don't trust the owners or Stern, and they're losing trust in Hunter and Fisher, who's left?

You guessed it … it's those shrewd and lovable legal minds who negotiate for players, call them every day, know their kids' names, won them over years ago, spent the last few months quietly undermining Hunter, know how to butter up media members and curry favor, and currently have their clients lathered into an anti-The-Man frenzy. The agents despised the owners' latest proposal — they don't want the middle class compromised in any way, or sign-and-trades, or the luxury tax, because that might curtail player movement (their bread and butter). They would rather lose a season to protect what they have, knowing they have much longer careers and they'll make those commissions back over time as long as they can prevent the NBA's model from changing against them too drastically right now.

Make no mistake: The agents are the single smartest group involved in this lockout. They make absurd commissions working over general managers (usually ex-players) who are almost always unequipped to negotiate with them. You know that saying "laughing all the way to the bank"? That's what the best sports agents do. Trust me, they have done the math. They figured out exactly where this lockout needs to end for them — repeat: for them — and advised the players accordingly. Meanwhile, these players can NEVER get that lost season back from three standpoints: how it affects them financially, how it affects their playing careers, and how it affects their fans (especially the casual ones who hopped on the bandwagon these past two years and will just as quickly hop off). The agents were supposed to be protecting these guys; instead, they protected themselves. Of course …...

5. Jeffrey Kessler
The agents could never act more selfishly than Kessler, who waited his whole career for the right antitrust suit and finally found his patsy. It's his chance to become the focal point of an HBO documentary, bring the NBA to its knees and maybe become the Marvin Miller of antitrust lawyers. (It's a longshot, and we might lose a couple of NBA seasons in the process, but who cares, right?) Those just-as-ruthless NFL owners sniffed him out early, chopped his balls off and eventually shut him out of the final negotiating process, knowing he didn't totally care about getting a deal done. Now he's operating in a much bigger vacuum — thanks to a leadership void, Kessler kept amassing power even after his "plantation owners" comment backfired so spectacularly.11

6. The Veteran Superstars
That would be Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce … seven of our wealthiest, most-thoughtful and most-accomplished NBA players. Five of them have been missing in action — most disappointingly, Nash, one of the smartest athletes in any sport. Kobe can't decide whether he wants to cross Fisher and Hunter or not; he's done everything but call them out, he's allegedly leaked information to writers, he pushed hard behind the scenes for the 50/50 deal, he obviously wants to play … and yet, there's an invisible line he won't cross.12 Pierce has gone the other way — he's been the union's most vocal "veteran star" voice, and if there's been a revelation these past few months, it's that Pierce carries more weight with other players than anyone else.......

..........I'm not surprised that Pierce emerged as a behind-the-scenes leader during this lockout. Every Celtics fan knows how he's wired. Here's what surprises me: Knowing how competitive he is, knowing how much he cares about one more title, knowing how much he loves playing in Boston, knowing how much he appreciates how Wyc Grousbeck and Danny Ainge stood by him over the years, knowing how he thinks about his career in a big-picture sense, knowing that he's a pretty rational guy … it frightens me that Paul Pierce cares this much about standing up to the owners and potentially losing a season. It makes me think the owner/player relationship (and the Stern/player relationship) is significantly more damaged than we want to believe.

I can't see the players caving at this point. They're too entrenched and too rankled. Stern and Hunter are too stubborn to step aside; it's like they're trapped in the same never-ending hockey faceoff, only the referee won't ship them off. Kessler and the agents only care about themselves. Same for the small market owners and even a few of the bigger market ones. If you're looking for a voice of reason13, a veteran star14 to throw his hands up and say, "Wait a second,15 we're not really throwing this season away,16 right?", you're going to be disappointed.18 That renegade player18 would have emerged by now.

For the owners, nothing has changed — it's strictly business. For the players, something has changed — it's almost entirely personal. You can't find a middle ground between those two worlds. You just can't. Maybe it's the opposite of how definitively The Godfather: Part II ended — with Michael Corleone sitting outside by himself, lost in thought, alone in every sense, a ruthless businessman with no personal connection to anything — but even so, that deafening silence sounds the same.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
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TheGame
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11/19/2011  12:05 PM
I think the players made a mistake in not making a few changes to the NBA's last proposal, voting on it for approval, and then sending it back to the owners, saying "This is what we are willing to agree to, either take it or leave it." They would have turned the tables on Stern and made the owners be the party to blow things up. Plus, I really believe that, after all the things they won, the owners (guys like Dolan and Buss) would have been able to get a narrow approval of the modified offer. Not doing that was a big mistake that will cost the players millions.
Trust the Process
Markji
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11/19/2011  12:16 PM
TheGame wrote:I think the players made a mistake in not making a few changes to the NBA's last proposal, voting on it for approval, and then sending it back to the owners, saying "This is what we are willing to agree to, either take it or leave it." They would have turned the tables on Stern and made the owners be the party to blow things up. Plus, I really believe that, after all the things they won, the owners (guys like Dolan and Buss) would have been able to get a narrow approval of the modified offer. Not doing that was a big mistake that will cost the players millions.

I agree with you. Why didn't it happen.....I think too much animosity, mistrust, egos and poor organizing by the union leadership. That's why a fresh start with David Boies representing the players could re-open the doors and get people thinking more clearly.

I think a lot of owners want the season to start by Christmas.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Nalod
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11/19/2011  12:52 PM
I agree with most of the article to the extent we have knowledge about things. Im not in insider like Nixluva, so I don't know what they are always thinking.

I think the players vs. stern thing is important and yet petty. Stern was right to keep violence off the court and of course take stark measures to keep it out of the stands. Im sure the players don't like the fines and being scolded, but in the age of the social media things can get out of hand pretty quick.

Wade and lebron think they are above and bigger than the league. They break no laws nor rules but are clearly taking matters into their own hands and trying to control their own destiny. This is where some of us really disagree. Of course movie actors and musicians are free to make great choices but the NBA is the organization that employs them and the CBA creates the rules for the best interests of the 30 teams.

Im all for freedom to express ones self, but when the players started very much emulating the hip hop culture ON THE BENCH AND ON COMPANY TIME it threatened to alienate them from a big fan base and owners wanted stern to put a stop to it. Don't agree? Well the NBA has had a very nice run the last thru years. Im sure some players thought its sucking up to the man, but look at guys like Melo,Wade and Stat who have gone into the fashion world and have created their own sense of style and way to express themselves. It changed and so did the players for their own benefit.

Pro leagues always had antitrust exemptions and for the most part it works.

IM sure we all have issues with some aspects of it based on our backgrounds and values.

CLusterphuck above all other faults. Good point.

SupremeCommander
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11/19/2011  1:08 PM
I read this, thought it was good.

For those of you who want a summary: the owners screwed up because it was all business and bottom-line thinking; the players screwed up because it was personal and the only time they could shove it in Stern's face

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
nyk4ever
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11/19/2011  3:50 PM
i think these negotiations all would have gone more smoothly if hunter wasn't looking out for only himself...
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
CrushAlot
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11/19/2011  4:14 PM
he made every decision in his typically smug, sarcastic, endearing-or-bullying-depending-on-how-you-feel-about-him manner.3

He's clearly wearing out the players … and not in a good way. During one of Stern's typically biting lectures in a crucial labor meeting two months ago, Dwyane Wade snapped and yelled at him, "Don't you point your finger at me!" That was personal, not business.

I think there is a lot to this. The constant droning and referring to his talking points was driving me crazy. I can't imagine how the players felt. His utlimatums, my way or the highway, we have opened our books etc. I think Stern was a big part of the reason the players reacted and did the only thing they could to shut him up and not comply with his parental demeanor.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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11/19/2011  5:23 PM
As inept as Hunter is still the union came all the way over to the owner demands and this was at 50/50 and many of the system changes all Stern had to do was bend just a little but he didn't and that angered the already testy players! You have to know when to take your winnings but Stern took it a step too far!

Even now Stern could call the owners and their lawyers to make contact with the players lawyers and finish this deal. Just too much ego all the way around! Owners, players, Stern, Hunter, lawyers and agents all guilty!

Nalod
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11/19/2011  6:45 PM
thought the owners didn't want the deal Stern proposed and were hoping the would vote it down.
nixluva
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11/20/2011  4:53 PM
The NBA fashion rules had nothing to do with the changes in Urban fashion!!! The styles go thru their own cyclical shifts independent of anything the mainstream is doing. While there were some players that dressed shabbily or in Hip Hop Styles of the day the rule could be seen as being a bit of an insult to the mostly black players. Once again tho that rule had nothing to do with the players getting involved with fashion.

Stern has to realize that he is dealing with young men he shares almost nothing in common with culturally! He doesn't understand the modern player and his old school attitude isn't going to work with these guys. Today's player is going to want to be shown respect and Stern isn't used to restraining his tongue at all. Today's players have more savvy and are more worldly than in the past. More players have non basketball business interests and so it makes it hard for Stern to just dictate to these guys and expect no response. Just the way the players and agents changed their tactics regarding Free Agency shows that it's a new day. If only the players had fired Hunter and brought in a new more capable leader...

Nalod
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11/20/2011  5:50 PM
nixluva wrote:The NBA fashion rules had nothing to do with the changes in Urban fashion!!! The styles go thru their own cyclical shifts independent of anything the mainstream is doing. While there were some players that dressed shabbily or in Hip Hop Styles of the day the rule could be seen as being a bit of an insult to the mostly black players. Once again tho that rule had nothing to do with the players getting involved with fashion.

Stern has to realize that he is dealing with young men he shares almost nothing in common with culturally! He doesn't understand the modern player and his old school attitude isn't going to work with these guys. Today's player is going to want to be shown respect and Stern isn't used to restraining his tongue at all. Today's players have more savvy and are more worldly than in the past. More players have non basketball business interests and so it makes it hard for Stern to just dictate to these guys and expect no response. Just the way the players and agents changed their tactics regarding Free Agency shows that it's a new day. If only the players had fired Hunter and brought in a new more capable leader...

I know you'd take the bait!

Sub "Stern" for "NBA board of governors" and your raising the bar.

nixluva
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11/20/2011  7:50 PM
I just find it funny how all these supposed captains of industry could fail so miserably to run a multibillion dollar sport. Their only answer is to create an impasse that leads to mire lost revenue and the possible loss of fans and happy business partners. Surely there was a better way to resolve the leagues problems!
tkf
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11/20/2011  8:15 PM
Nalod wrote:I agree with most of the article to the extent we have knowledge about things. Im not in insider like Nixluva, so I don't know what they are always thinking.

I think the players vs. stern thing is important and yet petty. Stern was right to keep violence off the court and of course take stark measures to keep it out of the stands. Im sure the players don't like the fines and being scolded, but in the age of the social media things can get out of hand pretty quick.

Wade and lebron think they are above and bigger than the league. They break no laws nor rules but are clearly taking matters into their own hands and trying to control their own destiny. This is where some of us really disagree. Of course movie actors and musicians are free to make great choices but the NBA is the organization that employs them and the CBA creates the rules for the best interests of the 30 teams.

Im all for freedom to express ones self, but when the players started very much emulating the hip hop culture ON THE BENCH AND ON COMPANY TIME it threatened to alienate them from a big fan base and owners wanted stern to put a stop to it. Don't agree? Well the NBA has had a very nice run the last thru years. Im sure some players thought its sucking up to the man, but look at guys like Melo,Wade and Stat who have gone into the fashion world and have created their own sense of style and way to express themselves. It changed and so did the players for their own benefit.

Pro leagues always had antitrust exemptions and for the most part it works.

IM sure we all have issues with some aspects of it based on our backgrounds and values.

CLusterphuck above all other faults. Good point.

I agree, the players are really a bunch of children in this regard... they want to pretend they are tough, the whole hip hop attitude thing is just not the image the NBA wants.. just think, who are buying the box seats, the luxury boxes? Yes, corporations, white collar customers..... I know for sure one company we deal with purchased luxury boxes in atlanta, and chicago simply because he came to a few games, enjoyed the atmosphere and the athleticism todays players displayed, He likes the steve nash's, the joe johnsons of the league... guys who carry themselves as professionals.. this is what attracted him... the hip hop culture these guys want to carry on is fine, nothing wrong with it, but you have to look at your customer base.. who is buying the tickets that help pay your salaries.. can't alienate those folks... stern was trying to help these guys understand that..... but of course these players don't understand that.. which is why I just can't support a league in which the players try their best to run it..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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11/20/2011  8:20 PM
nixluva wrote:The NBA fashion rules had nothing to do with the changes in Urban fashion!!! The styles go thru their own cyclical shifts independent of anything the mainstream is doing. While there were some players that dressed shabbily or in Hip Hop Styles of the day the rule could be seen as being a bit of an insult to the mostly black players. Once again tho that rule had nothing to do with the players getting involved with fashion.

Stern has to realize that he is dealing with young men he shares almost nothing in common with culturally! He doesn't understand the modern player and his old school attitude isn't going to work with these guys. Today's player is going to want to be shown respect and Stern isn't used to restraining his tongue at all. Today's players have more savvy and are more worldly than in the past. More players have non basketball business interests and so it makes it hard for Stern to just dictate to these guys and expect no response. Just the way the players and agents changed their tactics regarding Free Agency shows that it's a new day. If only the players had fired Hunter and brought in a new more capable leader...

Nix, I can tell you this.. one of our vendors is based out of alabama, no pro team there.. he likes the NBA, loves the new dress code and hated the saggy pants and unprofessional off the court attitude.. from any player or any league.... He likes the cleaned up look.. He also owns luxury boxes in Atlant, chicago and charlotte I think.... he does business there and entertains clients... he told me he was apprehensive about supporting a league in which the clients he entertained no longer enjoyed viewing the product, and I know exactly what he was saying. I read between the lines... he mentioned professionalism and looking clean cut... simple and plain... if these athletes feel they don't have anything in common with stern then they sure are out of touch with the people who pay their salaries...let guys like this who spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on luxury suites take his money elsewhere... is that what the players want?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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11/20/2011  8:31 PM
The Hip Hop culture isn't one set style or representative of one area. Players today reflect that variety. We've come a long way since the days of Allen Iverson wearing gold chains and cornrow braids. Most guys have a more sophisticated urban style that is more Diddy, Common, Drake and Kanye than NWA! Man times change and those old stereotypes no longer fit.

I'm very connected to the music industry and tho there are still some very street thug Hip Hop artists out there, there are more non thug artists and fans of the Hip Hop Culture. Most NBA players fit that latter group. People outside the culture always seem to lack recognition of this fact. Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.

knicks1248
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11/20/2011  8:56 PM
You could see weeks ago that everyone has had there own agenda..when a presidential pick mediator comes away from negotiations btwn two parties with out any progress at all..I knew it was personal..

Sterns take it or leave it offer was the icing..Maybe if he said it behind close doors, but the fact that he came on TV gangstered out with a devilish silly smurk, and said no more negotiatons, and threating to void all contracts if they decertified..Wow

ES
tkf
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11/20/2011  10:44 PM
nixluva wrote:The Hip Hop culture isn't one set style or representative of one area. Players today reflect that variety. We've come a long way since the days of Allen Iverson wearing gold chains and cornrow braids. Most guys have a more sophisticated urban style that is more Diddy, Common, Drake and Kanye than NWA! Man times change and those old stereotypes no longer fit.

I'm very connected to the music industry and tho there are still some very street thug Hip Hop artists out there, there are more non thug artists and fans of the Hip Hop Culture. Most NBA players fit that latter group. People outside the culture always seem to lack recognition of this fact. Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.


WELL NIX, I am very connected as well, not sure what you do, but my wife and I(moreso my wife) work with a lot of these artist on a weekly basis, and I can tell you that the hip hop culture still has a lot of "thugery" going on.... but I agree, you still have your sophisticated urban style, but that is still the minorty... you still get a lot of the saggy pants, silly costumes and debasing music in the hip hop culture.. sad but true.. I can understand the NBA wanting to clean up it's look a bit, go a little more professional and actually cater a bit to the people that spend a bulk of the money....


Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.

the problem is, those kids are not buying luxury boxes and season tickets... heck they are not even buying the league pass...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SupremeCommander
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11/20/2011  11:37 PM
tkf wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Hip Hop culture isn't one set style or representative of one area. Players today reflect that variety. We've come a long way since the days of Allen Iverson wearing gold chains and cornrow braids. Most guys have a more sophisticated urban style that is more Diddy, Common, Drake and Kanye than NWA! Man times change and those old stereotypes no longer fit.

I'm very connected to the music industry and tho there are still some very street thug Hip Hop artists out there, there are more non thug artists and fans of the Hip Hop Culture. Most NBA players fit that latter group. People outside the culture always seem to lack recognition of this fact. Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.


WELL NIX, I am very connected as well, not sure what you do, but my wife and I(moreso my wife) work with a lot of these artist on a weekly basis, and I can tell you that the hip hop culture still has a lot of "thugery" going on.... but I agree, you still have your sophisticated urban style, but that is still the minorty... you still get a lot of the saggy pants, silly costumes and debasing music in the hip hop culture.. sad but true.. I can understand the NBA wanting to clean up it's look a bit, go a little more professional and actually cater a bit to the people that spend a bulk of the money....


Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.

the problem is, those kids are not buying luxury boxes and season tickets... heck they are not even buying the league pass...

This isn't so much a comment of the nuts and bolts of your dialogue as it is on dress in general. I don't understand people that think they have to dress like their music. That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. And it's not just the hip hop crowd. There's the emo crowd. Growing up I was big into the contemprorary punk and ska scene (the Birchill was awesome) but I didn't dress like I wanted to riot.

Also, isn't the swag of hip hop culture? Looking like a baller? Bragging about how much better you are than the next swinging dick? Isn't a big part of that dressing like that?

The players should demand subscriptions to GQ and one-on-one fashion consultations with Jay Z during the labor negotiations

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
SupremeCommander
Posts: 34057
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11/20/2011  11:39 PM
knicks1248 wrote:You could see weeks ago that everyone has had there own agenda..when a presidential pick mediator comes away from negotiations btwn two parties with out any progress at all..I knew it was personal..

the article discusses this... the mediator got thrown out of NFL negotiations. The theory is because he's the best anti-trust expert around. He's looking to make a name for himself on a huge anti-trust case. That opportunity would mean avoiding a deal and dragging the issue through the courts.

Lost season time

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
nixluva
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USA
11/21/2011  12:27 AM
tkf wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Hip Hop culture isn't one set style or representative of one area. Players today reflect that variety. We've come a long way since the days of Allen Iverson wearing gold chains and cornrow braids. Most guys have a more sophisticated urban style that is more Diddy, Common, Drake and Kanye than NWA! Man times change and those old stereotypes no longer fit.

I'm very connected to the music industry and tho there are still some very street thug Hip Hop artists out there, there are more non thug artists and fans of the Hip Hop Culture. Most NBA players fit that latter group. People outside the culture always seem to lack recognition of this fact. Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.


WELL NIX, I am very connected as well, not sure what you do, but my wife and I(moreso my wife) work with a lot of these artist on a weekly basis, and I can tell you that the hip hop culture still has a lot of "thugery" going on.... but I agree, you still have your sophisticated urban style, but that is still the minorty... you still get a lot of the saggy pants, silly costumes and debasing music in the hip hop culture.. sad but true.. I can understand the NBA wanting to clean up it's look a bit, go a little more professional and actually cater a bit to the people that spend a bulk of the money....


Just visit a college and look around at the kids and listen to who they're into.

the problem is, those kids are not buying luxury boxes and season tickets... heck they are not even buying the league pass...


There's nothing you can tell me about the Hip Hop Culture, Rock, country... I live and breath music and entertainment 24/7-365 and I have my entire life!!! My father was in the music biz and so am I. I deal with both young and old musicians and in particular I know from direct 1st hand knowledge what's going on on college campuses!!! This is what I do. Be that as it may, some bigoted biz exec that knows nothing about Urban culture would say some dumb crap like your acquaintance did.

There's nothing wrong with the policy in that they want a more professional look on the bench but that's not what it was about. They feared other out of touch and prejudiced fans would be turned off and rather than educating them on the fact that dress doesn't indicate behavior they figured do the simple thing and make the players dress up to put the folks at ease. It's borderline racist! As if oversized clothes made someone dangerous or unfit somehow. Look workplace dress codes are fine but the underlying purpose of this one is wrong.

Whoa. Great article on the Negotiations - What went wrong; Why; Whose Fault

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