I am not sure what to think of Kennedy and I don't know if he is a reliable source. This is bad news if true.

Moonangie wrote:If this "final deal" is in fact worse than the previous deal, or even similarly bad, then it's time for decertification. The owners are doing what they can to destroy the season and the union. *BLEEP* the owners for messing with our league. Bunch of self-interested pricks.

I think by 'it got worse', the players actually mean they discovered some things that the owners had disguised up until now- I think one that stands out is that teams can't use the MLE if it puts them over the tax level- it basically renders the MLE non-existent.

Alex Kennedy, despite his boy-ish appearance, does seem to have really good sources- he is usually right, and it suprises me everytime.

Good luck to the players willing to risk not just this season but next season as well by decertifying. I'm sure that will do a lot of good.

Moonangie wrote:They will start a new league in that case. The owners are playing hardball, but they will have no product without good players.

Right. That's going to work out real well.

If true, they clearly don't want the players to accept the deal and are merely trying to lose the season while making it look like the players are to blame. F*** these guys.

smackeddog wrote:Have you seen the story on Espn? I can't post the link as I'm using an iPad and haven't figured out how you cut and paste yet! But hidden in the proposals is a rule that allows a team to send any player to the d league and cut their salary to 75,000 per year while there at any time in their first 5 years in the nba. If true, how do they get away with this crap? It basically ends guaranteed contracts for players, and how the heck can someone live when their salary can plummet from millions to thousands at the whim of their owner?

If true, they clearly don't want the players to accept the deal and are merely trying to lose the season while making it look like the players are to blame. F*** these guys.

I read that's not true. That's one of the things up for discussion, like age limit and behavior policies, but not part of the proposal.

Childs2Dudley wrote:The owners are not losing any lawsuits lol. And they wont be scared by one either.

Good luck to the players willing to risk not just this season but next season as well by decertifying. I'm sure that will do a lot of good.

Decertification owes its power to the uneasy truce between labor laws and antitrust laws. The antitrust laws prevent employers from banding together to restrain competition. For example, if all the banks in a city agreed that they would not pay their tellers more than $30,000 per year, it would almost certainly be an illegal case of "price fixing." Likewise, if the banks laid off all their tellers and refused to rehire them unless they agreed to take a pay cut to $30,000, it would almost certainly be an illegal "group boycott." These types of agreements -- which restrain competition -- are addressed by the antitrust laws.

However, collective bargaining encourages the very type of behavior that the antitrust laws make illegal. To resolve this inherent conflict, there is something called the "non-statutory labor exemption," which shields collective bargaining agreements from attack under antitrust law. This protection extends even after the agreement expires -- so long as a bargaining relationship continues to exist.

Here's the key to the whole process: This bargaining relationship continues to exist as long as the union is in place. If the players dissolve the union, the bargaining relationship dissolves with it. Without the bargaining relationship, the league is no longer shielded from antitrust laws.

Much of the economic structure of the NBA -- such as the salary cap, maximum salaries, rookie-scale salaries and the luxury tax -- could be challenged under the antitrust laws as a form of price fixing if there was no union. The lockout itself could be challenged as a group boycott.

In many normal businesses, employers fight unionization and would be thrilled if the employees decided to get rid of their union. But in the sports world, employers benefit from the existence of the union -- so the employees can use the dissolution of the union as a threat.

So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law.

After decertifying, the players could then bring an antitrust suit against the league, challenge any rules that constitute a restraint of trade, and ask the court to end the lockout. They could also seek treble (triple the amount) damages -- up to $6 billion per year. The odds of winning are not 100 percent certain (they never are), but the risk to the owners would be enormous. Such a case could take years to resolve.

Once the union decertifies, the collective bargaining process would be over -- there literally would be no union with which the owners could negotiate. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the other players on the executive committee would no longer be in charge -- as a practical matter, control would pass to attorneys. The players also could not reassemble the union for one year without the league's consent. However, such consent obviously would be granted if the two sides eventually cut a deal.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/decertification-111104/nba-decertification-threat-strong-message

Childs2Dudley wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:The owners are not losing any lawsuits lol. And they wont be scared by one either.

Good luck to the players willing to risk not just this season but next season as well by decertifying. I'm sure that will do a lot of good.

I think the owners are not negotiating in good faith. I think the only recourse the players have is decertifying. The process takes 45 days and even the threat of it could mean a lost season. No matter what is being said owners lose money if the season is lost. There was a rumor that Stern assured Tnt and Espn that he could produce an 82 game season. I think he is under pressure to get as close to that as possible. The players do not have a lot of leverage in the current negotiations. Larry Coon talked about decertification and it seems to be a viable strategy for the players to use to get negotiations on a more even playing field. The process takes 45 days so the owners could react and negotiate a more reasonable offer. More from Coon:

Decertification owes its power to the uneasy truce between labor laws and antitrust laws. The antitrust laws prevent employers from banding together to restrain competition. For example, if all the banks in a city agreed that they would not pay their tellers more than $30,000 per year, it would almost certainly be an illegal case of "price fixing." Likewise, if the banks laid off all their tellers and refused to rehire them unless they agreed to take a pay cut to $30,000, it would almost certainly be an illegal "group boycott." These types of agreements -- which restrain competition -- are addressed by the antitrust laws.

However, collective bargaining encourages the very type of behavior that the antitrust laws make illegal. To resolve this inherent conflict, there is something called the "non-statutory labor exemption," which shields collective bargaining agreements from attack under antitrust law. This protection extends even after the agreement expires -- so long as a bargaining relationship continues to exist.

Here's the key to the whole process: This bargaining relationship continues to exist as long as the union is in place. If the players dissolve the union, the bargaining relationship dissolves with it. Without the bargaining relationship, the league is no longer shielded from antitrust laws.

Much of the economic structure of the NBA -- such as the salary cap, maximum salaries, rookie-scale salaries and the luxury tax -- could be challenged under the antitrust laws as a form of price fixing if there was no union. The lockout itself could be challenged as a group boycott.

In many normal businesses, employers fight unionization and would be thrilled if the employees decided to get rid of their union. But in the sports world, employers benefit from the existence of the union -- so the employees can use the dissolution of the union as a threat.

So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law.

After decertifying, the players could then bring an antitrust suit against the league, challenge any rules that constitute a restraint of trade, and ask the court to end the lockout. They could also seek treble (triple the amount) damages -- up to $6 billion per year. The odds of winning are not 100 percent certain (they never are), but the risk to the owners would be enormous. Such a case could take years to resolve.

Once the union decertifies, the collective bargaining process would be over -- there literally would be no union with which the owners could negotiate. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the other players on the executive committee would no longer be in charge -- as a practical matter, control would pass to attorneys. The players also could not reassemble the union for one year without the league's consent. However, such consent obviously would be granted if the two sides eventually cut a deal.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/decertification-111104/nba-decertification-threat-strong-message

Stern is not under any pressure. He has been playing this game for over two decades. He isn't getting intimidated by dumb players trying to decertify.