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Players agree to 50-50 split, but demand system changes...
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Moonangie
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11/9/2011  12:09 AM
November 8, 2011
N.B.A. Union Signals a Shift That May End the Lockout
By HOWARD BECK
The path to an N.B.A. labor deal, and the end to a 131-day lockout, came into sharper focus Tuesday, with the players signaling for the first time that they would accept the league’s proposed 50-50 split of revenues.

Derek Fisher, the union president, made that overture at a news conference, with 43 players standing behind him. In return, the union wants the league to relax its proposed restrictions on free agency.

By offering to take the league’s offer, the union effectively shifted the onus back to Commissioner David Stern and the owners.

“We’re open-minded about potential compromises on our number,” Fisher said, referring to the revenue share for the players. “But there are things in the system that are not up for discussion, that we have to have, in order to be able to get this season going again.”

Stern told NBA TV that he would be happy to take a call from Billy Hunter, the union’s executive director. However, Stern said he could not resume negotiations until he consulted with the owners’ labor relations committee. Stern also told the network that he denied Hunter’s claim that the league was about to cancel games “up through Christmas.”

If a final bit of horse-trading can happen by Wednesday afternoon, it could save the 2011-12 season. Stern has set a 5 p.m. Wednesday deadline for the players to accept the league’s last proposal, or have it replaced by a significantly worse offer — an ultimatum that could, in effect, push the sides even further apart and toward a courtroom showdown.

Union leaders had rejected Stern’s ultimatum early Sunday morning, right after he issued it. They restated the rejection Tuesday, with the full support of the player representatives from 29 teams, following a lively three-hour meeting with the union’s executive board at a Manhattan hotel.

The meeting was a broad cross-section of players, including superstars (Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook) and bit players (Jason Kapono), veterans (Raja Bell) and rising young stars (Blake Griffin).

Although some fractures have emerged in the union’s 400-plus membership, the players in attendance projected a unified front in rejecting the league’s offer.

“Across the board, I think we all pretty much felt like that deal wasn’t going to get it done,” Bell said.

A handful of players, most notably Houston’s Kevin Martin, have said publicly that they want to vote on the N.B.A.’s offer, whether they favor it or not. The suggestion did not seem to get much consideration Tuesday. The meeting was mostly devoted to explaining the rules that the union finds objectionable.

“Once it goes up and you fully understand what it is, it’s not pretty,” Bell said.

At issue are a number of proposals that, in the union’s view, would strangle free agency.

The N.B.A. wants to ban luxury-tax-paying teams from using the full midlevel exception (worth $5 million), and from executing sign-and-trade deals. The union also objects to a so-called repeater tax that would punish teams for exceeding the tax threshold three times in five years.

The N.B.A. has been proposing, in some form or another, a 50-50 split of league revenues since Oct. 4. Since then, the union has gradually reduced its demand from 53 percent to 52.5 percent and finally to 51 percent on Sunday. As recently as last week, Hunter remained stridently opposed to a 50-50 deal.

The players now see that number as the key to a deal, if the league will compromise on the system issues.

“They want to get back to work,” Fisher said, with the 40-plus players behind him. “They want us to try and get a deal done. But they don’t want us to be shortsighted and get a deal done just to say we got a deal done today, and regret it 5, 10, 15 years from now.”

As union leaders made their strategic move Tuesday, a dissident faction of players was proceeding with a petition drive that could force a vote on dissolving the union. The players, who believe the union has conceded too much, are working with an antitrust lawyer and could push the battle into the legal realm if they object to the final deal.

As the labor crisis moved toward a potential endgame, the rhetoric once again flared from two key figures.

In an interview with The Washington Post, Jeffrey Kessler — the union’s outside counsel and its lead negotiator — accused the league of treating players “like plantation workers.” Stern fired back by blaming Kessler for the lack of a deal, calling him “the single most divisive force” in talks.


Let's have some hoops soon...

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nixluva
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11/9/2011  3:14 AM
Stern is a funny dude! He makes threatening statements and preconditions this entire lockout and he has a nerve to say Kessler is a divisive force??? SMH. This guy doesn't get how out of touch he sounds.
smackeddog
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11/9/2011  4:48 AM
nixluva wrote:Stern is a funny dude! He makes threatening statements and preconditions this entire lockout and he has a nerve to say Kessler is a divisive force??? SMH. This guy doesn't get how out of touch he sounds.

The worrying thing is, compared to a large chunk of the owners, he's the good guy! As weird as Dolan being the voice of reason in negotitions! I usually don't like Stern, but I think in this lockout he has tried to act in the best interests of the NBA, but has been handcuffed by some owners, who really genuinely don't care at all about basketball or the nba and want to kill the season to plumpen the value of their franchises- I really hope they sell in the near future.

Well, todays the day- by 5pm we'll know if we have a season or not. If the owners don't let Stern through a few bones on the system issues to let the players save face, then it just shows that this lockout isn't just about money, but also about humiliating the union- it makes no sense at all for no deal to be reached when the sides are this close- the owners just need to give a few things taht won't actually cost them anything. The players have given them over $3billion over the next 10 years, thats over $300million per year, which more than covers their pretend losses- the owners need to be fair!

Also Kberg from CBS has revealed that in actual fact only 3 times has there been a S&T to a tax paying team (eddy curry to NY, Marion to Dallas,Laron Profit to LA). How many extend and trade deals have there been? hardly any. These are irrelevant issues. Escrow can easily be agreed on with a 8-10 band- that's nothing. The big issues are luxury tax (th smaller teams should remember high sending doesn't guarantee success, and they get the money from tax paying teams, so they actually gain financially from teams paying it. Either slightly increase the MLE for tax paying teams, or slightly reduce the tax- they cancel each other out anyways as it'll be hard for a teams over the cap to increase their salary and luxury tax level without the full MLE anyways.

Come on, a deal can easily be reached!

tkf
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11/9/2011  10:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/9/2011  10:59 AM
Moonangie wrote:
November 8, 2011
N.B.A. Union Signals a Shift That May End the Lockout
By HOWARD BECK
The path to an N.B.A. labor deal, and the end to a 131-day lockout, came into sharper focus Tuesday, with the players signaling for the first time that they would accept the league’s proposed 50-50 split of revenues.

Derek Fisher, the union president, made that overture at a news conference, with 43 players standing behind him. In return, the union wants the league to relax its proposed restrictions on free agency.

By offering to take the league’s offer, the union effectively shifted the onus back to Commissioner David Stern and the owners.

“We’re open-minded about potential compromises on our number,” Fisher said, referring to the revenue share for the players. “But there are things in the system that are not up for discussion, that we have to have, in order to be able to get this season going again.”

Stern told NBA TV that he would be happy to take a call from Billy Hunter, the union’s executive director. However, Stern said he could not resume negotiations until he consulted with the owners’ labor relations committee. Stern also told the network that he denied Hunter’s claim that the league was about to cancel games “up through Christmas.”

If a final bit of horse-trading can happen by Wednesday afternoon, it could save the 2011-12 season. Stern has set a 5 p.m. Wednesday deadline for the players to accept the league’s last proposal, or have it replaced by a significantly worse offer — an ultimatum that could, in effect, push the sides even further apart and toward a courtroom showdown.

Union leaders had rejected Stern’s ultimatum early Sunday morning, right after he issued it. They restated the rejection Tuesday, with the full support of the player representatives from 29 teams, following a lively three-hour meeting with the union’s executive board at a Manhattan hotel.

The meeting was a broad cross-section of players, including superstars (Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook) and bit players (Jason Kapono), veterans (Raja Bell) and rising young stars (Blake Griffin).

Although some fractures have emerged in the union’s 400-plus membership, the players in attendance projected a unified front in rejecting the league’s offer.

“Across the board, I think we all pretty much felt like that deal wasn’t going to get it done,” Bell said.

A handful of players, most notably Houston’s Kevin Martin, have said publicly that they want to vote on the N.B.A.’s offer, whether they favor it or not. The suggestion did not seem to get much consideration Tuesday. The meeting was mostly devoted to explaining the rules that the union finds objectionable.

“Once it goes up and you fully understand what it is, it’s not pretty,” Bell said.

At issue are a number of proposals that, in the union’s view, would strangle free agency.

The N.B.A. wants to ban luxury-tax-paying teams from using the full midlevel exception (worth $5 million), and from executing sign-and-trade deals. The union also objects to a so-called repeater tax that would punish teams for exceeding the tax threshold three times in five years.

The N.B.A. has been proposing, in some form or another, a 50-50 split of league revenues since Oct. 4. Since then, the union has gradually reduced its demand from 53 percent to 52.5 percent and finally to 51 percent on Sunday. As recently as last week, Hunter remained stridently opposed to a 50-50 deal.

The players now see that number as the key to a deal, if the league will compromise on the system issues.

“They want to get back to work,” Fisher said, with the 40-plus players behind him. “They want us to try and get a deal done. But they don’t want us to be shortsighted and get a deal done just to say we got a deal done today, and regret it 5, 10, 15 years from now.”

As union leaders made their strategic move Tuesday, a dissident faction of players was proceeding with a petition drive that could force a vote on dissolving the union. The players, who believe the union has conceded too much, are working with an antitrust lawyer and could push the battle into the legal realm if they object to the final deal.

As the labor crisis moved toward a potential endgame, the rhetoric once again flared from two key figures.

In an interview with The Washington Post, Jeffrey Kessler — the union’s outside counsel and its lead negotiator — accused the league of treating players “like plantation workers.” Stern fired back by blaming Kessler for the lack of a deal, calling him “the single most divisive force” in talks.


Let's have some hoops soon...


to me, I have no problem with that rule, the players don't want it because the marginal NBA player would not be able to steal an extra 3 mil a year in salary he just does not deserve!!!!!!!!!!!! so instead of guys like ryan anderson getting paid 2.5-3 mil a year he can now get 5-6 mil a year with the MLE... just disgusting and the main reason why the NBA will never really thrive with such an ass backwards wealth transfer system... Damn this is so friggin stupid.. If I were an owner, I would shut down shop just for that very reason.. I will be damned to pay for marginal talent, overpay to the max, just because the money is there.... these players are absolutely ridiculous.... and I can understand why some owners are taking such a hardline stance and saying "F**K" this season!!!

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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11/9/2011  12:25 PM
tkf wrote:to me, I have no problem with that rule, the players don't want it because the marginal NBA player would not be able to steal an extra 3 mil a year in salary he just does not deserve!!!!!!!!!!!! so instead of guys like ryan anderson getting paid 2.5-3 mil a year he can now get 5-6 mil a year with the MLE... just disgusting and the main reason why the NBA will never really thrive with such an ass backwards wealth transfer system... Damn this is so friggin stupid.. If I were an owner, I would shut down shop just for that very reason.. I will be damned to pay for marginal talent, overpay to the max, just because the money is there.... these players are absolutely ridiculous.... and I can understand why some owners are taking such a hardline stance and saying "F**K" this season!!!

You do realize no one is forcing teams to use MLE? Teams don't have to offer the full MLE either! Let's be clear here. The fault doesn't rest with the players but the teams that make these poor decisions. Your anger is misdirected! When making deals teams need to recognize that only star player will positively effect the bottom line! The role players don't by themselves draw fans. The only way role players effect a team is if they help the team win more games. Guys like Jared Jeffries don't do that and so you have to be careful giving guys like him the full MLE!!!

Team mismanagement is the real problem and I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.
Teams that draft well and make smart signings are successful! ie. The Spurs and OKC!!!
they are in small markets but run their teams the right way.

Nalod
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11/9/2011  1:03 PM
OKC is fine in a fresh new market but were died in Seattle.

SA has been great and had some luck in getting Duncan. They built off it and succeeded.

What the MLE hs done is teams that need players had to overpay because the market got artificially high for them.

nixluva
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11/9/2011  1:13 PM
Nalod wrote:OKC is fine in a fresh new market but were died in Seattle.

SA has been great and had some luck in getting Duncan. They built off it and succeeded.

What the MLE hs done is teams that need players had to overpay because the market got artificially high for them.

No team HAS to use the MLE or the full MLE! It's a choice many teams made in error!

What is going on in OKC is a great model for small market teams. The Spurs made great use of Luck of getting Duncan by making GREAT decisions after that! Not every team makes great decisions once they have an Elite talent ie. The Cavs. No matter what anyone says it cones down to management and how they run their team! You have to make smart decisions to go along with good luck.

Andrew
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11/9/2011  1:26 PM
Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?
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eViL
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11/9/2011  1:36 PM
Andrew wrote:Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?

how often does a large market team actually improve from overpaying a mediocre player with the MLE? maybe i'm just used to the Knicks, but it seems like the MLE has been our worst nightmare over the years. if i'm a small market team and a large market wants to go full MLE on a player who doesn't deserve it, i let them. then in a few years when that team needs to unload the player, i hold them hostage and force them to send numerous number one picks in exchange for cap relief. how often are MLE players the difference between being competitive or losing? i don't know. doesn't seem to be a big issue to me.

check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
tkf
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11/9/2011  2:34 PM
nixluva wrote:
tkf wrote:to me, I have no problem with that rule, the players don't want it because the marginal NBA player would not be able to steal an extra 3 mil a year in salary he just does not deserve!!!!!!!!!!!! so instead of guys like ryan anderson getting paid 2.5-3 mil a year he can now get 5-6 mil a year with the MLE... just disgusting and the main reason why the NBA will never really thrive with such an ass backwards wealth transfer system... Damn this is so friggin stupid.. If I were an owner, I would shut down shop just for that very reason.. I will be damned to pay for marginal talent, overpay to the max, just because the money is there.... these players are absolutely ridiculous.... and I can understand why some owners are taking such a hardline stance and saying "F**K" this season!!!

You do realize no one is forcing teams to use MLE? Teams don't have to offer the full MLE either! Let's be clear here. The fault doesn't rest with the players but the teams that make these poor decisions. Your anger is misdirected! When making deals teams need to recognize that only star player will positively effect the bottom line! The role players don't by themselves draw fans. The only way role players effect a team is if they help the team win more games. Guys like Jared Jeffries don't do that and so you have to be careful giving guys like him the full MLE!!!

Team mismanagement is the real problem and I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.
Teams that draft well and make smart signings are successful! ie. The Spurs and OKC!!!
they are in small markets but run their teams the right way.

the players want to keep the MLE for one reason... and the owners want it gone. example, ryan anderson can say, the knicks are going to give me the full MLE.. really? that is pocket change for NY, but it hurts orlando having to match, or replace a player and start over again.. how does that help the league? now a new market is set for clowns like anderson... which again hurts small market teams... this is Not home depot vs lowes.. the NBA teams compete vs one another on the court, but really they are "ONE" as a league, everyone success is vital to the leagues success as a whole....

these players use big market teams to drive up price, especially teams over the cap who can use the MLE and heck, what does it hurt NY or LA who is already over the cap to give anderson 5 mil over 3 mil? really doesn't matter...but it hurts the other teams in the league down the road...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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11/9/2011  2:36 PM
Andrew wrote:Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?

exactly.. NY and LA can force a team like orlando to overpay for a marginal player, which in turn sets the market to overpay other marginal players...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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11/9/2011  2:38 PM
eViL wrote:
Andrew wrote:Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?

how often does a large market team actually improve from overpaying a mediocre player with the MLE? maybe i'm just used to the Knicks, but it seems like the MLE has been our worst nightmare over the years. if i'm a small market team and a large market wants to go full MLE on a player who doesn't deserve it, i let them. then in a few years when that team needs to unload the player, i hold them hostage and force them to send numerous number one picks in exchange for cap relief. how often are MLE players the difference between being competitive or losing? i don't know. doesn't seem to be a big issue to me.

but that is the key, they don't need that player to necessarily improve, but heck they could afford to use him as insurance or just a specialty player... the fact that the MLE is pocket change for dolan doesn't mean that for 15 other teams... that would like to keep a player they developed and have chemistry with, but should not have to overpay, because the money is there...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
eViL
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11/9/2011  2:45 PM
tkf wrote:
eViL wrote:
Andrew wrote:Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?

how often does a large market team actually improve from overpaying a mediocre player with the MLE? maybe i'm just used to the Knicks, but it seems like the MLE has been our worst nightmare over the years. if i'm a small market team and a large market wants to go full MLE on a player who doesn't deserve it, i let them. then in a few years when that team needs to unload the player, i hold them hostage and force them to send numerous number one picks in exchange for cap relief. how often are MLE players the difference between being competitive or losing? i don't know. doesn't seem to be a big issue to me.

but that is the key, they don't need that player to necessarily improve, but heck they could afford to use him as insurance or just a specialty player... the fact that the MLE is pocket change for dolan doesn't mean that for 15 other teams... that would like to keep a player they developed and have chemistry with, but should not have to overpay, because the money is there...

i don't know man. can you give me an example of that situation? if our deep pockets were such an advantage in combination with the MLE, how come the only players we came away with were Jerome James and Jared Jeffries? who are these developing players that big markets are stealing away from smaller teams?

check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
tkf
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11/9/2011  3:23 PM
eViL wrote:
tkf wrote:
eViL wrote:
Andrew wrote:Correct that the teams do not need to use the MLE, but when that exception is available to all teams every year the larger market teams can force smaller market teams into using it to overspend. You have to choose to be less competitive in order to be profitable. Are you ok with that?

how often does a large market team actually improve from overpaying a mediocre player with the MLE? maybe i'm just used to the Knicks, but it seems like the MLE has been our worst nightmare over the years. if i'm a small market team and a large market wants to go full MLE on a player who doesn't deserve it, i let them. then in a few years when that team needs to unload the player, i hold them hostage and force them to send numerous number one picks in exchange for cap relief. how often are MLE players the difference between being competitive or losing? i don't know. doesn't seem to be a big issue to me.

but that is the key, they don't need that player to necessarily improve, but heck they could afford to use him as insurance or just a specialty player... the fact that the MLE is pocket change for dolan doesn't mean that for 15 other teams... that would like to keep a player they developed and have chemistry with, but should not have to overpay, because the money is there...

i don't know man. can you give me an example of that situation? if our deep pockets were such an advantage in combination with the MLE, how come the only players we came away with were Jerome James and Jared Jeffries? who are these developing players that big markets are stealing away from smaller teams?

i never said it was an advantage, my point is, it does more hurt than good period... especially to smaller market teams

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
eViL
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11/9/2011  3:38 PM
yeah, well i don't like the MLE but not for the reasons you claim. i don't think there is one example of a big market stealing a young developing player away using the MLE. rather, it's been mostly used on middle-of-the-road veterans that aren't major difference-makerss.

right now though, i'd hate to see the MLE dissappear because the Knicks are gonna have a hard time adding veteran talent without it. i'd really like to pick up shane battier.

i'd prefer for some sort of bi-annual cap clearing exception that teams can use. if you get rid of the MLE but you allow teams some way of digging back under the cap, then maybe the market for players will still be strong, but you won't see as much artificial inflation of salaries for players who don't truly deserve it.

we'll see how it shakes out. hoping for the best.

check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
tkf
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11/9/2011  4:12 PM
eViL wrote:yeah, well i don't like the MLE but not for the reasons you claim. i don't think there is one example of a big market stealing a young developing player away using the MLE. rather, it's been mostly used on middle-of-the-road veterans that aren't major difference-makerss.

right now though, i'd hate to see the MLE dissappear because the Knicks are gonna have a hard time adding veteran talent without it. i'd really like to pick up shane battier.

i'd prefer for some sort of bi-annual cap clearing exception that teams can use. if you get rid of the MLE but you allow teams some way of digging back under the cap, then maybe the market for players will still be strong, but you won't see as much artificial inflation of salaries for players who don't truly deserve it.

we'll see how it shakes out. hoping for the best.

they don't have to be major difference makers, but good players on a team with good chemistry,it happens, but hey, we may dissagree here, and that is cool...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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11/9/2011  6:51 PM
Let's get real here! eViL is right! Teams aren't getting better competitively by using the MLE! It's been miss used and to be honest it mostly goes to players teams can afford to let go! Players that are actually good enough to make an impact don't settle for the MLE. Teams have simply overused it on players that aren't really worth the money.

Like I said teams don't have use the full MLE! Don't blame the players cuz there are Owners willing to overpay mediocre players!!! Like I've said before the owners hurt themselves by imposing limits on contracts. If they simply let there be a free market then players like Joe Johnson don't get Max by default! There used to be Elite level contracts for guys like Jordan or KG and no one outside of the Elite level got that much. Now there are players making more than Lebron and Wade!!! The owners upset the natural order of things and they added the MLE to make up for imposing limits on the top end but that just raised the cost of mediocre players! In the end it gets back to my main point, that this is all the owners fault. The players have gone along with all the owner changes over the last few CBA's and they haven't worked!

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11/9/2011  9:49 PM
nixluva wrote:Let's get real here! eViL is right! Teams aren't getting better competitively by using the MLE! It's been miss used and to be honest it mostly goes to players teams can afford to let go! Players that are actually good enough to make an impact don't settle for the MLE. Teams have simply overused it on players that aren't really worth the money.

Like I said teams don't have use the full MLE! Don't blame the players cuz there are Owners willing to overpay mediocre players!!! Like I've said before the owners hurt themselves by imposing limits on contracts. If they simply let there be a free market then players like Joe Johnson don't get Max by default! There used to be Elite level contracts for guys like Jordan or KG and no one outside of the Elite level got that much. Now there are players making more than Lebron and Wade!!! The owners upset the natural order of things and they added the MLE to make up for imposing limits on the top end but that just raised the cost of mediocre players! In the end it gets back to my main point, that this is all the owners fault. The players have gone along with all the owner changes over the last few CBA's and they haven't worked!

You know what? You are right. Its a free market system of supply and demand. Demand is in such high regard that it completely overshadows the supply. Hence the stupid deals to unworthy players. Owners want to protect themselves from, well, themselves. That goes against the free market system and players want no part of that cheezy deal. I am with the players on that particular issue.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
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11/9/2011  10:45 PM
KBergCBS Ken Berger
Growing optimism in the agent and front-office community that a deal will get done. One person briefed on talks "incredibly optimistic."
12 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

please please please let them make a deal

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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11/10/2011  12:15 AM
crzymdups wrote:
KBergCBS Ken Berger
Growing optimism in the agent and front-office community that a deal will get done. One person briefed on talks "incredibly optimistic."
12 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

please please please let them make a deal

I'm with you in that! I have never had a season without the NBA and I don't want to see a first time! They've got to get it done. They're so close now! We've got the 50/50 and now all the owners need to do is throw the union a bone so they can seal the deal!!!

Players agree to 50-50 split, but demand system changes...

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