This was David Stern at his best, the smartest guy in the room -- just ask him -- running the game with an audience of millions. This is why Stern makes whatever salary he makes, because he told the owners he would deliver for them and it was time to make good on that promise.

In the language of diplomacy, as Stern likes to say, he always makes good -- always knows, like some of the greatest stars his league has produced, when it is time to close the deal.

Stern had to come through Thursday in the tipoff of his little media tour. It was time to stem the tide of public opinion against the owners and turn the full force of what longtime observers call "Mt. Stern" on Billy Hunter and the union. The message was clear: Once Stern erupts like this, few people and their principles will be left standing. You have a blood issue? Here's a mop. Now go clean it up.

For really the first time in more than two years of negotiations, Stern eloquently explained the owners' solutions for fixing the NBA and made it all sound so reasonable. His depiction of the negotiations, of the bargaining points, of the back and forth was blissfully incomplete, as his nickname, the Ommissioner, would suggest.

But this was an important moment for Stern, winning time in these negotiations. With Hunter having made the rounds on the radio a day earlier and en route to Los Angeles to update his players on the current state of their inevitable doom, Stern meticulously dismantled the union, its leadership, its bargaining points, its beliefs -- everything but its women and children, and might I suggest that they remain securely hidden until this is over.

At a time when the public, and, in fact, a federal mediator, was finally beginning to catch on to the sheer insanity and unreasonableness of the owners’ demands, Stern expertly turned the table and made it seem like it was the players who were being obstinate -- the players who had placed a grenade under the 2011-12 season and pulled the pin. The public, always inclined to turn on athletes at a time like this, was this close to feeling sorry for them -- this close to siding with rich guys who were getting bullied by even richer guys.

Few people really embrace NBA players for reasons that form the strands of another story for another day. But one thing nobody likes is a blowout. Nobody likes running up the score.

And this is where Stern, who at 69 is smack dab in the middle of the moment that will define his legacy, had better understand his real duty and responsibility as this broken negotiation limps into the arms of a federal mediator next week. His duty is not simply to win, to get what the owners -- his clients -- want. His greater responsibility is to get a deal and reopen his sport. Anything less, any attempt to run up the score here, will result in a defeat of dizzying, devastating proportions for everyone.

Column

Gregg Doyel
I'm supposed to be angry at the NBA owners. Which is fine. I am angry at Stern. I am angry at his owners. Read More >>
Mike Freeman
When the NFL was going through its ugly lockout, no one said this publicly, but many said it privately. Read More >>
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When will the lockout end?

For Stern and his owners, for the players and the NBA as a whole, there is a fine line between victory and defeat. When you begin to enjoy too much the feeling of your foot on the opponent's throat, you risk turning victory into catastrophe.

There's such a thing in war, intelligence, law enforcement and yes, negotiation, as taking your victim alive.

On one hand, Stern finally articulated owner-driven system changes that clearly would improve the product: an amnesty clause allowing teams to waive underperforming players and spread their cap hits over multiple years; preventing big-spending teams from spending even more to steal the have-nots' free agents; and taxing teams into oblivion to shrink the payroll gap between the Lakers and Knicks of the world and the Kings and Bobcats.

He was so good, so on his game, and so in command of interviewers with minimal grasp of the subject matter (save for the knowledgeable David Aldridge, who successfully challenged Stern on several points) that he made it seem like gospel that the owners were trying to get a deal and the players were not. He pointed out that union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers was fine with big-market teams enjoying the ability to spend their weakling competitors into irrelevance for another decade or so. He conveniently glossed over the fact that eliminating the Larry Bird exception, which he helped create in 1983 to prevent teams from losing their stars, would open the floodgates for more stars to move around.

"Player sharing," was the euphemism Stern assigned to the new world order the owners are seeking. "That's what caps do. They move players around. They distribute players a little more equally."

But Stern's conveniently one-sided characterization of the negotiations -- strongly suggesting, among other things, that a 50-50 BRI split is a foregone conclusion when, at 53 percent, the players already have surrendered more than $1 billion over six years -- wasn't even his most diabolical and significant accomplishment Thursday. This happened when he took aim at the union leadership and delicately pulverized every last one of them into sawdust.

Stern made sure to point out that it was Fisher who came knocking on the owners' door during a key bargaining session Oct. 4 with the idea that both sides try to sell a 50-50 split. Stern didn't have to answer the question about whether he was able to sell it to the owners or not, because A) he said the players came back and informed him they couldn't before he had the chance, and B) this is the number his owners wanted all along, so no salesmanship was necessary.

He made sure to point out that outside counsel Jeffrey Kessler "does about 70 percent of the talking for the union," a veiled-but-effective shot at Fisher and Hunter that will have the union in damage-control mode for days. He couldn't resist leaving out the fact that Hunter was nowhere to be seen during the key conversations about the 50-50 split -- the union's executive director unaccounted for during the most important discussions in more than two years of negotiations.

After listening to about an hour of this Thursday, I wanted nothing more than to lay my dizzy, aching head on a pillow and could fully grasp why Fisher has emerged from every bargaining session wearing an expression of utter bewilderment. Can you imagine listening to this for seven hours a day, in person? So many devious, devastatingly subtle digs that could tear the union leadership apart; it was like watching Jordan in his prime.

But here's the thing: Unlike Jordan, unlike the current stars of Stern's league for whom cutthroat annihilation is part of the job description, Stern has a higher purpose here -- a duty to seek common ground, not scorched Earth. He's the master of the message, the ultimate closer, a skilled negotiator who has taken his case to a public that doesn't know what to believe and thus will embrace the most skillfully crafted closing argument available.

Stern's wax statue at Madame Tussaud's will have a void where the heart belongs and a fork-shaped tongue. But his legacy will be equally disfigured if he doesn't lift his foot off the players' throats and put style points aside to achieve a victory that, while not a blowout, will be far more meaningful.

Barring federal mediator George Cohen -- a former outside labor counsel for the NBPA -- undressing Stern in the negotiating room next week, or barring a miracle from the National Labor Relations Board, it will be up to Stern to see reason and compromise. Just days after cutting out Hunter's legs on radio and TV, it will be up to Stern to throw his longtime foe and negotiating partner the life raft that could save the season -- and save both men's legacies.

For all of Stern's masterful manipulation Thursday, the reality is this: the players have offered to surrender more than $1 billion of their previous salaries, have offered shorter contracts, smaller raises, more restrictions on big-market spending, and have dug in only on the issues of a technical hard salary cap and guaranteed contracts. Stern's negotiation position has made it seem like a victory that the players have managed to preserve even that much, while somehow thwarting the owners' quest to re-open previously signed contracts and suck money out of them, too.

We get it, David. You're winning. You have all the leverage, and barring a legal miracle or the unrealistic notion that decertifying the union will work for the NBPA any better than it did for the NFLPA, you're going to win. It's reality.

But don't lose sight of the fine line between victory and defeat -- because Hunter won't concede in a blowout, and a blowout is a loss for everyone. At this point, the only way to get a deal that saves the season, saves your legacy and spares your product an insurmountable PR disaster, is to negotiate one with Hunter. Keep running up the score, keep piling on, and that deal won't be reached. The result will be economic Armageddon.

As a lawyer, and an excellent one, Stern understands that you fight as hard as you can for your client in the pursuit of unmitigated victory. But he should also know that, sometimes, you take a plea agreement. Sometimes, the certainty of a modest victory is better than the possibility of the ultimate defeat.

Send this one to the jury, David Stern, and it's on you.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15735224/no-blowout-needed-stern-should-take-nba-labor-win-make-the-deal

Stern's wax statue at Madame Tussaud's will have a void where the heart belongs and a fork-shaped tongue. But his legacy will be equally disfigured if he doesn't lift his foot off the players' throats and put style points aside to achieve a victory that, while not a blowout, will be far more meaningful.

For all of Stern's masterful manipulation Thursday, the reality is this: the players have offered to surrender more than $1 billion of their previous salaries, have offered shorter contracts, smaller raises, more restrictions on big-market spending, and have dug in only on the issues of a technical hard salary cap and guaranteed contracts. Stern's negotiation position has made it seem like a victory that the players have managed to preserve even that much, while somehow thwarting the owners' quest to re-open previously signed contracts and suck money out of them, too.

We get it, David. You're winning. You have all the leverage, and barring a legal miracle or the unrealistic notion that decertifying the union will work for the NBPA any better than it did for the NFLPA, you're going to win. It's reality.

But don't lose sight of the fine line between victory and defeat -- because Hunter won't concede in a blowout, and a blowout is a loss for everyone. At this point, the only way to get a deal that saves the season, saves your legacy and spares your product an insurmountable PR disaster, is to negotiate one with Hunter. Keep running up the score, keep piling on, and that deal won't be reached. The result will be economic Armageddon.

This is why many of us side with the players, cuz they've been giving up money consistently, but do you think the owners are giving equally in these negotiations? I don't see it. They played that old trick of laying out all this demands that were really just distractions, cuz they never really wanted or expected those things to pass anyway. They just wanted to put those things out in the media so it looked like they had given ground on a lot. THEY NEVER HAD THOSE THINGS TO BEGIN WITH. SO the owners weren't giving up anything. Only the players are losing things they already had. All I ask is for Stern to close the deal and get the NBA going. We don't need an end zone dance.

nixluva wrote:Nalod you're a funny dude. Are you the owner of a fortune 500 company or a Hedge Fund manager? What's with all the glee in Stern and the owners beating down the players? We all know that the players would give ground as they have been doing for the last few CBA's. You're main talking point about how Stern has Leverage, like we didn't all know that, is the most obvious part of the plot. We've seen this movie over and over. That really isn't the point. The point is that even tho the players aren't the most lovable warm and fuzzy or sympathetic characters, they have been the most ready to give back for the good of the game. They've done it now over the course of 3 different CBA's. This one also shows that the players have given MAJOR concessions even before Stern has had the chance to apply the full weight of his pressure. Before we lost any games the players had already given money back.

For all of Stern's masterful manipulation Thursday, the reality is this: the players have offered to surrender more than $1 billion of their previous salaries, have offered shorter contracts, smaller raises, more restrictions on big-market spending, and have dug in only on the issues of a technical hard salary cap and guaranteed contracts. Stern's negotiation position has made it seem like a victory that the players have managed to preserve even that much, while somehow thwarting the owners' quest to re-open previously signed contracts and suck money out of them, too.

We get it, David. You're winning. You have all the leverage, and barring a legal miracle or the unrealistic notion that decertifying the union will work for the NBPA any better than it did for the NFLPA, you're going to win. It's reality.

But don't lose sight of the fine line between victory and defeat -- because Hunter won't concede in a blowout, and a blowout is a loss for everyone. At this point, the only way to get a deal that saves the season, saves your legacy and spares your product an insurmountable PR disaster, is to negotiate one with Hunter. Keep running up the score, keep piling on, and that deal won't be reached. The result will be economic Armageddon.

This is why many of us side with the players, cuz they've been giving up money consistently, but do you think the owners are giving equally in these negotiations? I don't see it. They played that old trick of laying out all this demands that were really just distractions, cuz they never really wanted or expected those things to pass anyway. They just wanted to put those things out in the media so it looked like they had given ground on a lot. THEY NEVER HAD THOSE THINGS TO BEGIN WITH. SO the owners weren't giving up anything. Only the players are losing things they already had. All I ask is for Stern to close the deal and get the NBA going. We don't need an end zone dance.

You gotta be phuching kidding me!

And Bonn, no way this is the cry of the worker! Private jets, multi million dollar contracts are not the cry of the workers who are really taking it in the chin. These dudes get 4-5 months off a year and they just have to be in shape come October. They get paid very well, get expenses paid, and get treated very well. Not all make it. Most had a chance to get a college degree, be educated and perhaps most got some saved.

Your lumping the working class with NBA players is really very short sighted.

Both of you make it out like there is real pain.

YOu can also make it out that for the last 3 cba's the players have made out like bandits. Nobody said that.

Nix, you sound like a beaten man. Dude, this is not your fight!

Nalod wrote:Both of you make it out like there is real pain.

YOu can also make it out that for the last 3 cba's the players have made out like bandits. Nobody said that.

Nix, you sound like a beaten man. Dude, this is not your fight!

Nalod it's clear that you just don't get it. It's not about whether the players make a lot or not. It's about how Stern and the Owners come back every CBA asking for help, but talking tough as if they've been wronged in some way. It's the owners and Stern who keep setting the agenda and failing. I'll help you out since you clearly aren't able to see clearly what's happening. each newCBA is supposed to be THE SYSTEM that will guarantee league success for all the franchises. Stern puts in rules and they're supposed to set teams up for success. ie. Stern and the owners came up with this idea of the Bird Exception. The idea was to be able to keep stars with the team that drafted them. Now they want to get rid of the Bird exception and move the stars around. I guess they feel every team can get a piece of the money that comes from having a Lebron or Durant. So now after convincing everyone that locking players into a team was the key to league success, now Stern is moving to have players be able to move.

He conveniently glossed over the fact that eliminating the Larry Bird exception, which he helped create in 1983 to prevent teams from losing their stars, would open the floodgates for more stars to move around.

"Player sharing," was the euphemism Stern assigned to the new world order the owners are seeking. "That's what caps do. They move players around. They distribute players a little more equally."

SO basically Stern got it wrong!!! Like he's been getting it wrong with every CBA he forces the players into signing.
See being able to lockout the players and starve them out has allowed the league to continually squeeze the players more and more, but has that fixed the problems? NO!!! See Nalod that's the big picture that you seem to keep missing every time i've put it in front of you. it's not about whether Stern can beat the Union. We've already seen that happen over and over again. Just look at the CBA changes i've been listing and you can see how much the players have continually been squeezed, but it hasn't fixed the league has it. Everything Stern did last CBA FAILED!!!! That's been proven by the losses and the fact that now he wants change everything. If he had gotten it right the last few times the league wouldn't have any issues.

And you're wrong. I'm not beaten. I'm in the same spot I was since the beginning. I already knew that the players would have to cave, cuz they always do. You just can't see the big picture cuz you're too busy gloating about Stern beating the players. Stern is a joke when it comes to solving the problems with the league. He puts on this show every time the new CBA comes due and people like you fall for his game. He's a fraud. Everything he's been doing has failed. If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise. How can he be a success if 22 teams were losing money as he claims? The players have been a success! They've been making good money and bringing in more and more fans. They've done their job. Great Attendance and TV ratings last year. Playoffs were great and the ratings high. Players did their part. Teams losing money, not being able to compete, not having parity with the big market teams is Sterns responsibility.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Unfortunately, we live in a corporate-driven country where those in power have little concern for workers. The players probably will cave even though I think they'd eventually win if they were willing to endure a long lockout.

NBA players are "Workers". Bonn you got your "occupy" on pretty darn good about now.

If you don't think many of them work hard (literally are "workers"), you're crazy. It's not as easy as you might think to maintain 5% body fat and play a full NBA season.

It's easy when you're making millions.

And even those making millions still don't maintain 5% body fat. Glen Davis, Eddy Curry, Jerome James, Dajuan Blair, Baron Davis, etc.

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Nalod wrote:Both of you make it out like there is real pain.

YOu can also make it out that for the last 3 cba's the players have made out like bandits. Nobody said that.

Nix, you sound like a beaten man. Dude, this is not your fight!

Nalod it's clear that you just don't get it. It's not about whether the players make a lot or not. It's about how Stern and the Owners come back every CBA asking for help, but talking tough as if they've been wronged in some way. It's the owners and Stern who keep setting the agenda and failing. I'll help you out since you clearly aren't able to see clearly what's happening. each newCBA is supposed to be THE SYSTEM that will guarantee league success for all the franchises. Stern puts in rules and they're supposed to set teams up for success. ie. Stern and the owners came up with this idea of the Bird Exception. The idea was to be able to keep stars with the team that drafted them. Now they want to get rid of the Bird exception and move the stars around. I guess they feel every team can get a piece of the money that comes from having a Lebron or Durant. So now after convincing everyone that locking players into a team was the key to league success, now Stern is moving to have players be able to move.

He conveniently glossed over the fact that eliminating the Larry Bird exception, which he helped create in 1983 to prevent teams from losing their stars, would open the floodgates for more stars to move around.

"Player sharing," was the euphemism Stern assigned to the new world order the owners are seeking. "That's what caps do. They move players around. They distribute players a little more equally."

SO basically Stern got it wrong!!! Like he's been getting it wrong with every CBA he forces the players into signing.
See being able to lockout the players and starve them out has allowed the league to continually squeeze the players more and more, but has that fixed the problems? NO!!! See Nalod that's the big picture that you seem to keep missing every time i've put it in front of you. it's not about whether Stern can beat the Union. We've already seen that happen over and over again. Just look at the CBA changes i've been listing and you can see how much the players have continually been squeezed, but it hasn't fixed the league has it. Everything Stern did last CBA FAILED!!!! That's been proven by the losses and the fact that now he wants change everything. If he had gotten it right the last few times the league wouldn't have any issues.

And you're wrong. I'm not beaten. I'm in the same spot I was since the beginning. I already knew that the players would have to cave, cuz they always do. You just can't see the big picture cuz you're too busy gloating about Stern beating the players. Stern is a joke when it comes to solving the problems with the league. He puts on this show every time the new CBA comes due and people like you fall for his game. He's a fraud. Everything he's been doing has failed. If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise. How can he be a success if 22 teams were losing money as he claims? The players have been a success! They've been making good money and bringing in more and more fans. They've done their job. Great Attendance and TV ratings last year. Playoffs were great and the ratings high. Players did their part. Teams losing money, not being able to compete, not having parity with the big market teams is Sterns responsibility.

Nix, Im not enlightened. One thing though, you really hate Stern.

Your not getting my position. Its not Pro Stern. Its about business, position and power. Who has it and who does not. s

Its not about "Right vs. wrong", "Worker vs business", or "Master vs. Slave". No, its about power, and who gots it.

Nobody is gloating, at the same level I can't imagine if this is what you were expecting why your so despondent at this point.

The end result is the players walk away with less but are they still not "winning"?

Your opinion is what it is, and its the owners who are paying him 8mm a year and he has been commish for the better part of 30 years now. 30 type "A" rich businessmen think he does a good job. I don't render an opinion on him.

If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise.

Stern did not create these guys, the NBA did. They elevated the level of exposure and marketing opportunities for these guys to become icons. They bought the talent, the league the stage. Stern was just the steward.

yea nalod, what I don't get about those who take the same position on this as nix does is that they keep saying these things..

"the owners are asking the players for help"

"The players are giving the owners......"

"The players are allowing the owners..."

"The players are bailing the owners ouw"

this type of talk and thinking just shows me that most really don't get it, hate stern and the owners, or just feel that the players are doing the owners a favor just by existing and for their troubles the owners are paying them millions and should be happy that the players are not taking billions from them...

Again, as you said, we keep repeating ourselves, but the simple point remains.. This is a business, the owners own this business, the players play and get one hell of a compensation package.. The players are not "giving" the owners anything.. The owners are not "asking" the players for anything... Because the players have a right to collective bargain, the owners are telling them this is what we want in order to continue business, now both sides will haggle and come to an agreement, but nix and others, please stop with the players are "giving".. they are not giving anything but their services in which they are greatly compensated for...

This is a NEGOTIATION.. not a RE-NOEGOTIATION.... the owners didn't come back in the middle of the old CBA and say, we want to re-negotiate.... that would be the players "giving back" they would be giving back what was owed to them... that deal is done, this is a new CBA, so they are not giving back a thing....

Owners have leverage.. End of story... nalod you hit the nail on the head, yet some people resist these facts and replace them with their personal feelings towards stern... and the owners.. it just doesn't work that way...

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Nalod wrote:Both of you make it out like there is real pain.

YOu can also make it out that for the last 3 cba's the players have made out like bandits. Nobody said that.

Nix, you sound like a beaten man. Dude, this is not your fight!

Nalod it's clear that you just don't get it. It's not about whether the players make a lot or not. It's about how Stern and the Owners come back every CBA asking for help, but talking tough as if they've been wronged in some way. It's the owners and Stern who keep setting the agenda and failing. I'll help you out since you clearly aren't able to see clearly what's happening. each newCBA is supposed to be THE SYSTEM that will guarantee league success for all the franchises. Stern puts in rules and they're supposed to set teams up for success. ie. Stern and the owners came up with this idea of the Bird Exception. The idea was to be able to keep stars with the team that drafted them. Now they want to get rid of the Bird exception and move the stars around. I guess they feel every team can get a piece of the money that comes from having a Lebron or Durant. So now after convincing everyone that locking players into a team was the key to league success, now Stern is moving to have players be able to move.

He conveniently glossed over the fact that eliminating the Larry Bird exception, which he helped create in 1983 to prevent teams from losing their stars, would open the floodgates for more stars to move around.

"Player sharing," was the euphemism Stern assigned to the new world order the owners are seeking. "That's what caps do. They move players around. They distribute players a little more equally."

SO basically Stern got it wrong!!! Like he's been getting it wrong with every CBA he forces the players into signing.
See being able to lockout the players and starve them out has allowed the league to continually squeeze the players more and more, but has that fixed the problems? NO!!! See Nalod that's the big picture that you seem to keep missing every time i've put it in front of you. it's not about whether Stern can beat the Union. We've already seen that happen over and over again. Just look at the CBA changes i've been listing and you can see how much the players have continually been squeezed, but it hasn't fixed the league has it. Everything Stern did last CBA FAILED!!!! That's been proven by the losses and the fact that now he wants change everything. If he had gotten it right the last few times the league wouldn't have any issues.

And you're wrong. I'm not beaten. I'm in the same spot I was since the beginning. I already knew that the players would have to cave, cuz they always do. You just can't see the big picture cuz you're too busy gloating about Stern beating the players. Stern is a joke when it comes to solving the problems with the league. He puts on this show every time the new CBA comes due and people like you fall for his game. He's a fraud. Everything he's been doing has failed. If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise. How can he be a success if 22 teams were losing money as he claims? The players have been a success! They've been making good money and bringing in more and more fans. They've done their job. Great Attendance and TV ratings last year. Playoffs were great and the ratings high. Players did their part. Teams losing money, not being able to compete, not having parity with the big market teams is Sterns responsibility.

Nix, Im not enlightened. One thing though, you really hate Stern.

Your not getting my position. Its not Pro Stern. Its about business, position and power. Who has it and who does not. s

Its not about "Right vs. wrong", "Worker vs business", or "Master vs. Slave". No, its about power, and who gots it.

Nobody is gloating, at the same level I can't imagine if this is what you were expecting why your so despondent at this point.

The end result is the players walk away with less but are they still not "winning"?

Your opinion is what it is, and its the owners who are paying him 8mm a year and he has been commish for the better part of 30 years now. 30 type "A" rich businessmen think he does a good job. I don't render an opinion on him.

If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise.

Stern did not create these guys, the NBA did. They elevated the level of exposure and marketing opportunities for these guys to become icons. They bought the talent, the league the stage. Stern was just the steward.

yea nalod, what I don't get about those who take the same position on this as nix does is that they keep saying these things..

"the owners are asking the players for help"

"The players are giving the owners......"

"The players are allowing the owners..."

"The players are bailing the owners ouw"

this type of talk and thinking just shows me that most really don't get it, hate stern and the owners, or just feel that the players are doing the owners a favor just by existing and for their troubles the owners are paying them millions and should be happy that the players are not taking billions from them...

Again, as you said, we keep repeating ourselves, but the simple point remains.. This is a business, the owners own this business, the players play and get one hell of a compensation package.. The players are not "giving" the owners anything.. The owners are not "asking" the players for anything... Because the players have a right to collective bargain, the owners are telling them this is what we want in order to continue business, now both sides will haggle and come to an agreement, but nix and others, please stop with the players are "giving".. they are not giving anything but their services in which they are greatly compensated for...

This is a NEGOTIATION.. not a RE-NOEGOTIATION.... the owners didn't come back in the middle of the old CBA and say, we want to re-negotiate.... that would be the players "giving back" they would be giving back what was owed to them... that deal is done, this is a new CBA, so they are not giving back a thing....

Owners have leverage.. End of story... nalod you hit the nail on the head, yet some people resist these facts and replace them with their personal feelings towards stern... and the owners.. it just doesn't work that way...

TKF, you and Nalod are the ones who don't get it. Forget about who has the hammer in this negotiation. That argument has been settled a long time ago. In every single CBA negotiation, the owners have moved the league in whatever direction they thought was going allow them to make the most money. They keep trying to PERFECT the system and that's where all these rules are coming from. Stern has utterly failed in that primary task when you look at the fact that the owners have lost money each and every year of this CBA!!! How else can you look at it? They set up this system and felt they had fixed the problems with the previous CBA's. Now they're looking to change things yet again HOPING that these new changes do what they failed to do the last few CBA's.

The players are the only thing that has been consistently successful. You look at the Bird/Magic years and the Jordan era. Now the Lebron era. The league has prospered with those players starring. The owners have been complaining about competitive balance and profitability for a long time and across several CBA's. The failures are evident in the need for major changes and the red ink on the leagues books. If Stern had done his job they wouldn't be having such problems and once again looking to extract more from the players and limit the players once take again. Now the NEW idea is not to prevent star players from moving but to create a league more like the NFL where there's parity cuz players move so much and there's a hard cap to prevent big city teams from hoarding all the best talent.

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Nalod wrote:Both of you make it out like there is real pain.

YOu can also make it out that for the last 3 cba's the players have made out like bandits. Nobody said that.

Nix, you sound like a beaten man. Dude, this is not your fight!

Nalod it's clear that you just don't get it. It's not about whether the players make a lot or not. It's about how Stern and the Owners come back every CBA asking for help, but talking tough as if they've been wronged in some way. It's the owners and Stern who keep setting the agenda and failing. I'll help you out since you clearly aren't able to see clearly what's happening. each newCBA is supposed to be THE SYSTEM that will guarantee league success for all the franchises. Stern puts in rules and they're supposed to set teams up for success. ie. Stern and the owners came up with this idea of the Bird Exception. The idea was to be able to keep stars with the team that drafted them. Now they want to get rid of the Bird exception and move the stars around. I guess they feel every team can get a piece of the money that comes from having a Lebron or Durant. So now after convincing everyone that locking players into a team was the key to league success, now Stern is moving to have players be able to move.

He conveniently glossed over the fact that eliminating the Larry Bird exception, which he helped create in 1983 to prevent teams from losing their stars, would open the floodgates for more stars to move around.

"Player sharing," was the euphemism Stern assigned to the new world order the owners are seeking. "That's what caps do. They move players around. They distribute players a little more equally."

SO basically Stern got it wrong!!! Like he's been getting it wrong with every CBA he forces the players into signing.
See being able to lockout the players and starve them out has allowed the league to continually squeeze the players more and more, but has that fixed the problems? NO!!! See Nalod that's the big picture that you seem to keep missing every time i've put it in front of you. it's not about whether Stern can beat the Union. We've already seen that happen over and over again. Just look at the CBA changes i've been listing and you can see how much the players have continually been squeezed, but it hasn't fixed the league has it. Everything Stern did last CBA FAILED!!!! That's been proven by the losses and the fact that now he wants change everything. If he had gotten it right the last few times the league wouldn't have any issues.

And you're wrong. I'm not beaten. I'm in the same spot I was since the beginning. I already knew that the players would have to cave, cuz they always do. You just can't see the big picture cuz you're too busy gloating about Stern beating the players. Stern is a joke when it comes to solving the problems with the league. He puts on this show every time the new CBA comes due and people like you fall for his game. He's a fraud. Everything he's been doing has failed. If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise. How can he be a success if 22 teams were losing money as he claims? The players have been a success! They've been making good money and bringing in more and more fans. They've done their job. Great Attendance and TV ratings last year. Playoffs were great and the ratings high. Players did their part. Teams losing money, not being able to compete, not having parity with the big market teams is Sterns responsibility.

Nix, Im not enlightened. One thing though, you really hate Stern.

Your not getting my position. Its not Pro Stern. Its about business, position and power. Who has it and who does not. s

Its not about "Right vs. wrong", "Worker vs business", or "Master vs. Slave". No, its about power, and who gots it.

Nobody is gloating, at the same level I can't imagine if this is what you were expecting why your so despondent at this point.

The end result is the players walk away with less but are they still not "winning"?

Your opinion is what it is, and its the owners who are paying him 8mm a year and he has been commish for the better part of 30 years now. 30 type "A" rich businessmen think he does a good job. I don't render an opinion on him.

If not for the greatness of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron etc. He would've been exposed a long time ago. They're the only reason the league has succeeded. Not because Stern did such a great job coming up with a successful system that works for every franchise.

Stern did not create these guys, the NBA did. They elevated the level of exposure and marketing opportunities for these guys to become icons. They bought the talent, the league the stage. Stern was just the steward.

yea nalod, what I don't get about those who take the same position on this as nix does is that they keep saying these things..

"the owners are asking the players for help"

"The players are giving the owners......"

"The players are allowing the owners..."

"The players are bailing the owners ouw"

this type of talk and thinking just shows me that most really don't get it, hate stern and the owners, or just feel that the players are doing the owners a favor just by existing and for their troubles the owners are paying them millions and should be happy that the players are not taking billions from them...

Again, as you said, we keep repeating ourselves, but the simple point remains.. This is a business, the owners own this business, the players play and get one hell of a compensation package.. The players are not "giving" the owners anything.. The owners are not "asking" the players for anything... Because the players have a right to collective bargain, the owners are telling them this is what we want in order to continue business, now both sides will haggle and come to an agreement, but nix and others, please stop with the players are "giving".. they are not giving anything but their services in which they are greatly compensated for...

This is a NEGOTIATION.. not a RE-NOEGOTIATION.... the owners didn't come back in the middle of the old CBA and say, we want to re-negotiate.... that would be the players "giving back" they would be giving back what was owed to them... that deal is done, this is a new CBA, so they are not giving back a thing....

Owners have leverage.. End of story... nalod you hit the nail on the head, yet some people resist these facts and replace them with their personal feelings towards stern... and the owners.. it just doesn't work that way...

TKF, you and Nalod are the ones who don't get it. Forget about who has the hammer in this negotiation. That argument has been settled a long time ago. In every single CBA negotiation, the owners have moved the league in whatever direction they thought was going allow them to make the most money. They keep trying to PERFECT the system and that's where all these rules are coming from. Stern has utterly failed in that primary task when you look at the fact that the owners have lost money each and every year of this CBA!!! How else can you look at it? They set up this system and felt they had fixed the problems with the previous CBA's. Now they're looking to change things yet again HOPING that these new changes do what they failed to do the last few CBA's.

The players are the only thing that has been consistently successful. You look at the Bird/Magic years and the Jordan era. Now the Lebron era. The league has prospered with those players starring. The owners have been complaining about competitive balance and profitability for a long time and across several CBA's. The failures are evident in the need for major changes and the red ink on the leagues books. If Stern had done his job they wouldn't be having such problems and once again looking to extract more from the players and limit the players once take again. Now the NEW idea is not to prevent star players from moving but to create a league more like the NFL where there's parity cuz players move so much and there's a hard cap to prevent big city teams from hoarding all the best talent.

what does that mean nix? the players have been the only thing that has been consistently successful? really? please elaborate...

Easy! The players made the league more popular with their play on the court. The players have made good money and even tho the owners keep trying to limit their movement they still manage to get paid and move where they want. The owners capped them top salaries and created the MLE as a consolation then the owners ended up spending more money than they planned on mediocre players. NOTHING the owners have tried has worked. So let's recap. Fans come to see compelling BB and the players gave us that. Owners tried to limit the players and failed. Owners came up with this system and lost money!!! Now the owners are back looking for help again.

Nalod wrote:
Owners own the team.

They pay the players.

Owners have no competition to pay players.

Owners want to pay less, make more.

Players don't like that. Nixluva think Owners are bad. Nalod says its business and unless there is viable competition players don't have strong bargaining power. Nixluva think Stern is a bad man. Nalod says Stern is the voice of owner and thinks Stern is an ass, but that is not important. Nixluva think Stern is a bad man and its important. Nalod is ok with Nixluva not agreeing.

Why do you keep mischaracterizing what my point is??? I'll say this once more and if you dont get it then I'm going to assume you're incapable of comprehending. It's not about the owners and Stern being bad guys or good guys. Stern is a fraud! The leagues financial woes and his changes and flip flops on top of his failures with successive CBA's prove it! He hasn't been able to solve the leagues problems. Not competitive balance, financially weak franchises or finding a way to protect the owners from themselves, with their foolish signings or stealing players from the weaker owners! That's been Stern's job for decades and he's failed on those key issues. The league is very popular which he gets a little cred for but mostly that is a function of the leagues stars. That's my view in a nutshell. ALL THE FACTS BACK ME UP!