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Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date
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BigDaddyG
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6/18/2013  10:20 PM
Markji wrote:
jusnice wrote:What's up guys - been a long time. I enjoyed this season greatly, although I thought the last episode was bland. That said, I thought the Red Wedding was awesome, particularly my wife's reactions since she has never read the books and I did a good job of not spoiling what I knew was coming. One thing I was surprised about was that they killed Rob's wife off. In the books, she is left out there and I found myself wondering if her rumored pregnancy would make an impact down the road. I am surprised that the TV series would kill off a thread in one of the books. Do you think GRRM agreed to close this thread out OR that he still reserves the right to deviate from the TV series going forward?

In the books Robb's wife's mother said that she had given her daughter a tea to stop conception. So since Rob's wife, Talisa was killed in the HBO series, I am assuming that Robb's wife in the books (Jeyne Westerling) will not be having his child.

Weiss and Benioff consult with GRRM on which characters are essential, who can be altered and who can be ignored. I'm assuming the Jane Westerling story line is probably nonessential and that's why the shows producers decided to move in the direction they did.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
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jusnice
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6/19/2013  12:56 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that this non essential character resulted in an essential character being killed. Looking through all of the books to date, GRRM doesn't spare any family. Love the last book with Tywin on the ****ter. Tyrion saying, "apparently the Lannister's do not **** gold."
BigDaddyG
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6/21/2013  12:50 AM
jusnice wrote:Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that this non essential character resulted in an essential character being killed. Looking through all of the books to date, GRRM doesn't spare any family. Love the last book with Tywin on the ****ter. Tyrion saying, "apparently the Lannister's do not **** gold."

Love that scene too. I wonder if Shae's actions are transferred to the show
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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6/21/2013  6:09 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
jusnice wrote:Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that this non essential character resulted in an essential character being killed. Looking through all of the books to date, GRRM doesn't spare any family. Love the last book with Tywin on the ****ter. Tyrion saying, "apparently the Lannister's do not **** gold."

Love that scene too. I wonder if Shae's actions are transferred to the show

Shae's fate has been on mind as well. She has much greater depth of character on the show than in the books. A more likeable character but I think she will still get killed. Hopefully it will be in saving Tyrion's life. The other way would be a downer.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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3/28/2014  6:45 PM
GRRM released a new Arya chapter from Winds of Winter. A little disturbing, but great read. Still no release date.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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3/30/2014  3:01 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:GRRM released a new Arya chapter from Winds of Winter. A little disturbing, but great read. Still no release date.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Thanks for posting this chapter. Arya is one of my favorite characters. Love to watch her progress. I can't wait for her to be back in Westeros and take some revenge.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
VDesai
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3/30/2014  11:58 PM
Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.
Markji
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3/31/2014  10:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/5/2014  4:13 AM
VDesai wrote:Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.

I agree with you that Arya is the wildcard, and on the path for vengeance. She already says her list of names every night before sleep. IMO, she will become the "she-wolf" to avenge her family being murdered.

From Book 1, after Ned is attacked by Jaime and Ned is stabbed in the leg. He is taken back to his chamber and awakes after 6 days The comment about Arya is all-telling.

"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
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3/31/2014  1:55 PM
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.

I agree with you that Arya is the wildcard, and one one the path for vengeance. She already says her list of names every night before sleep. IMO, she will become the "she-wolf" to avenge her family being murdered.

From Book 1, after Ned is attacked by Jaime and Ned is stabbed in the leg. He is taken back to his chamber and awakes after 6 days The comment about Arya is all-telling.

"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."

I'm curious to see how she makes her way back to Westeros. I like the idea of her as an avenging angel, but she is still only 12. Also, there aren't many people left who can ID her as Arya Stark. She's just an average girl without Nymeria by her side as proof. I wonder if these means she's doomed to live the rest of her life on the outside. Also, it looks like Cersei is back in power. Zombie Mountain probably won the trial by combat and the small council is probably in terrible condition. Plus, the Iron Bank has already decided to side with Stannis. I wonder if Arya was hired to kill someone else in the envoy.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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3/31/2014  10:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/5/2014  4:13 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.

I agree with you that Arya is the wildcard, and on the path for vengeance. She already says her list of names every night before sleep. IMO, she will become the "she-wolf" to avenge her family being murdered.

From Book 1, after Ned is attacked by Jaime and Ned is stabbed in the leg. He is taken back to his chamber and awakes after 6 days The comment about Arya is all-telling.

"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."

I'm curious to see how she makes her way back to Westeros. I like the idea of her as an avenging angel, but she is still only 12. Also, there aren't many people left who can ID her as Arya Stark. She's just an average girl without Nymeria by her side as proof. I wonder if these means she's doomed to live the rest of her life on the outside. Also, it looks like Cersei is back in power. Zombie Mountain probably won the trial by combat and the small council is probably in terrible condition. Plus, the Iron Bank has already decided to side with Stannis. I wonder if Arya was hired to kill someone else in the envoy.

I think she will play a significant part when the time comes. In the sample chapter, Arya is still warging into Nymeria, waking up with the taste of blood in her mouth. And she still carries needle. These 2 things keep her tied to the Stark clan. And the person she killed, Raff the Sweetling, was one of the names on her list she recited every night. IMO, she won't get lost in the Faceless man world. She'll pick up their knowledge and skills and use it later.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
VDesai
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3/31/2014  11:04 PM
I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

BigDaddyG
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4/1/2014  1:12 AM
Markji wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.

I agree with you that Arya is the wildcard, and one one the path for vengeance. She already says her list of names every night before sleep. IMO, she will become the "she-wolf" to avenge her family being murdered.

From Book 1, after Ned is attacked by Jaime and Ned is stabbed in the leg. He is taken back to his chamber and awakes after 6 days The comment about Arya is all-telling.

"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."

I'm curious to see how she makes her way back to Westeros. I like the idea of her as an avenging angel, but she is still only 12. Also, there aren't many people left who can ID her as Arya Stark. She's just an average girl without Nymeria by her side as proof. I wonder if these means she's doomed to live the rest of her life on the outside. Also, it looks like Cersei is back in power. Zombie Mountain probably won the trial by combat and the small council is probably in terrible condition. Plus, the Iron Bank has already decided to side with Stannis. I wonder if Arya was hired to kill someone else in the envoy.

I think she will play a significant part when the time comes. In the sample chapter, Arya is still warging into Nymeria, waking up with the taste of blood in her mouth. And she still carries needle. These 2 things keep her tied to the Stark clan. And the person she killed, Raff the Sweetling, was one of the names on her list she recited every night. IMO, she won't get lost in the Faceless man world. She'll pick up their knowledge and skills and use it later.

I agree that Arya is still a Stark at heart. I just wonder if anyone will recognize her as a a Stark in name. One cool thing from the new chapter is the idea that Bran is still following his siblings through the weirwoods.

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran."

I remember that Jon had a similar dream where he saw Bran's face in a weirwood and the two spoke. I hope Arya realizes at some point that these aren't merely dreams, but that Bran is actively trying to communicate with here.
I agree Cersie's days are numbered, but I think Arya is the least of her concerns. Aegon and the Golden Company are in Westeros and they already have Varys in Kings Landing as an informant. Plus, Tyrion is still alive. My question is how will Dany react if Aegon is sitting on the Iron Throne by the time she arrives at Kings Landing...if she ever makes it to Kings Landing.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
yellowboy90
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4/4/2014  11:03 AM
Looks like HBO is having a Marathon of the Game of Thrones on HBO2.
Markji
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4/5/2014  4:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/5/2014  4:25 AM
VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Markji
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4/5/2014  4:24 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Markji wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:Interesting chapter. Where Arya will fit as a potential assasin in the endgame will prove to be very interesting. You get the feeling she will be the one to avenge the Starks.

I agree with you that Arya is the wildcard, and one one the path for vengeance. She already says her list of names every night before sleep. IMO, she will become the "she-wolf" to avenge her family being murdered.

From Book 1, after Ned is attacked by Jaime and Ned is stabbed in the leg. He is taken back to his chamber and awakes after 6 days The comment about Arya is all-telling.

"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . ." He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."

I'm curious to see how she makes her way back to Westeros. I like the idea of her as an avenging angel, but she is still only 12. Also, there aren't many people left who can ID her as Arya Stark. She's just an average girl without Nymeria by her side as proof. I wonder if these means she's doomed to live the rest of her life on the outside. Also, it looks like Cersei is back in power. Zombie Mountain probably won the trial by combat and the small council is probably in terrible condition. Plus, the Iron Bank has already decided to side with Stannis. I wonder if Arya was hired to kill someone else in the envoy.

I think she will play a significant part when the time comes. In the sample chapter, Arya is still warging into Nymeria, waking up with the taste of blood in her mouth. And she still carries needle. These 2 things keep her tied to the Stark clan. And the person she killed, Raff the Sweetling, was one of the names on her list she recited every night. IMO, she won't get lost in the Faceless man world. She'll pick up their knowledge and skills and use it later.

I agree that Arya is still a Stark at heart. I just wonder if anyone will recognize her as a a Stark in name. One cool thing from the new chapter is the idea that Bran is still following his siblings through the weirwoods.

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran."

I remember that Jon had a similar dream where he saw Bran's face in a weirwood and the two spoke. I hope Arya realizes at some point that these aren't merely dreams, but that Bran is actively trying to communicate with here.
I agree Cersie's days are numbered, but I think Arya is the least of her concerns. Aegon and the Golden Company are in Westeros and they already have Varys in Kings Landing as an informant. Plus, Tyrion is still alive. My question is how will Dany react if Aegon is sitting on the Iron Throne by the time she arrives at Kings Landing...if she ever makes it to Kings Landing.

Pretty cool that Bran, the cripple, is becoming the behind-the-scenes power of the gallant, hard-fighting Starks.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
yellowboy90
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4/8/2014  3:42 AM
It's had been a while since read A Dance with Dragons(1st week it came out) and some of the other sample chapters of The Winds of Winter but it is amazing how much stuff started to flow back after reading that Ayra sample.
VDesai
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4/8/2014  9:56 AM
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

BigDaddyG
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4/8/2014  3:42 PM
VDesai wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Markji
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4/8/2014  4:37 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.


So many theories. Illyrio's 2nd wife Serra was his true love. She died of the plague. She was from Lys and the Lysene had the same features as the Targaryens - silver hair and purple eyes. Illyrio, when young, was a fierce strong sellsword with a very strong, sculptured body. So he could have fathered Young Griff and they have convinced Connington that Young Griff is the real Aegon.

Switching babies is easy. Hard to tell the difference if someone, i.e. The Mountain, had never seen the baby. And since The Mountain smashed in the face of the baby, who can say if the baby was really Aegon.

Why I think Darkstar is really Aegon : he
1.has the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targs (also the Daynes)
2.has a dark streak through his hair - middle of his head. GRRM stated that baby Aegon had both Targ features and some Dornish (maybe dark hair features from his mother who was Dornish)
3. Hates the Lannisters - tries to kill an innocent girl - Myrcella lannister.
4. is known to be crazy - like the Mad King.
5. Another theory - The real Aegon could have been brought to the Tower of Joy by the 3 Kingsguard who were there when Ned arrived. Why would 3 Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander(Ser Gerold Hightower) and the greatest swordsman (Ser Arthur Dayne) be at the Tower, away from the war and away from protecting the royal family, unless the heir was also there. Ned brought Aegon to the Daynes to be raised, IMO. Maybe this is what Lyanna had Ned promise.

This, of course doesn't "prove" anything. We need more info, but I think it is a real possibility.

The 3 heads of the Dragon - I agree with Daenerys and Jon Snow. The third could be Tyrion - I believe he is half Targ (mad king is his father) and mother is Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife). The mad king had a huge crush on Joanna and would send Tywin away on various missions. He could have easily raped her. The first description of Tyrion iindicates Targ features.

So many theories, and we await book 6 and hopefully book 7 to find out.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
BigDaddyG
Posts: 25031
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
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4/8/2014  6:27 PM
Markji wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
VDesai wrote:
Markji wrote:
VDesai wrote:I would guess its Arya who is Cersei's undoing later on.

Another question I've been thinking about is Varys. Varys has been plotting to keep putting Cersei in power (removing Kevan) - but not because he's allied with Cersei, but because he knows that Cersei will keep screwing up when in power. It will make it easier for "Aegon" to come in power.

I agree about Varys keeping Cersei in power because she is totally inept. Also your quotes around "Aegon" indicating that you also don't think he is the real Aegon. I agree. I think he is Illyrio's son. But I also think that the real Aegon is alive and is Darkstar. That is a bit more of a stretch, but I am waiting for GRRM to come clean regarding all of these "kids", now around 17 years old and who they really are. Lot's of baby-swapping and hints at different parentage, IMO.

There are hints that Varys/Aegon/Griff etc. are really working with the Blackfyres. Jon Connington was part of the Golden Company which was founded by Bittersteel/Aegor Rivers who sided with his half brother Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellion. Seems like Aegon might be a long lost Blackfyre descendent and thats why he has the typical Targaeryen features. Varys doesn't seem concerned with the realm - if so why kill Kevan Lannister - he clearly has played a long game to install someone in power- and it makes sense to for him to be affiliated with the Blackfyres.

I don't see how the real Aegon could be alive. Unless Varys actually swapped the kid out, too many people have commented on witnessing the dead child or dead child's corpse.

Then again in Rhaegar's prophecies there are supposedly 3 heads to the dragon. I think he thought they would be him and his two songs - Aegon and Jon Snow (thats why he runs off with Lyanna- to sire the third head of the dragon). Now it seems that its really Daenerys and Jon as two of the heads- and if not this Aegon then who is the third?

I'm still trying to choose among the following theories: Aegon is really Aegon, Aegon being a Blackfyre or him being Ilyrio's son. I don't by Darkstar being anything more than a dangerous Dornish swordsman who was given really cheesy lines. We've seen Daynes with Target like features before. Aegon is obviously the mummers dragon, but I don't take that to mean that he's fake. It just means that he's being propped up by Varys. It's possible that Ilyrio married a female Targ bastard and gave birth. I looked up the Black Pearl earlier and saw she was a Targ descendent. There's no telling how many are out there.


So many theories. Illyrio's 2nd wife Serra was his true love. She died of the plague. She was from Lys and the Lysene had the same features as the Targaryens - silver hair and purple eyes. Illyrio, when young, was a fierce strong sellsword with a very strong, sculptured body. So he could have fathered Young Griff and they have convinced Connington that Young Griff is the real Aegon.

Switching babies is easy. Hard to tell the difference if someone, i.e. The Mountain, had never seen the baby. And since The Mountain smashed in the face of the baby, who can say if the baby was really Aegon.

Why I think Darkstar is really Aegon : he
1.has the silver hair and purple eyes of the Targs (also the Daynes)
2.has a dark streak through his hair - middle of his head. GRRM stated that baby Aegon had both Targ features and some Dornish (maybe dark hair features from his mother who was Dornish)
3. Hates the Lannisters - tries to kill an innocent girl - Myrcella lannister.
4. is known to be crazy - like the Mad King.
5. Another theory - The real Aegon could have been brought to the Tower of Joy by the 3 Kingsguard who were there when Ned arrived. Why would 3 Kingsguard, including the Lord Commander(Ser Gerold Hightower) and the greatest swordsman (Ser Arthur Dayne) be at the Tower, away from the war and away from protecting the royal family, unless the heir was also there. Ned brought Aegon to the Daynes to be raised, IMO. Maybe this is what Lyanna had Ned promise.

This, of course doesn't "prove" anything. We need more info, but I think it is a real possibility.

The 3 heads of the Dragon - I agree with Daenerys and Jon Snow. The third could be Tyrion - I believe he is half Targ (mad king is his father) and mother is Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife). The mad king had a huge crush on Joanna and would send Tywin away on various missions. He could have easily raped her. The first description of Tyrion iindicates Targ features.

So many theories, and we await book 6 and hopefully book 7 to find out.


Have you read the GRRM's short in the Dangerous Women anthology yet. I thought itvwas decent, but he goes into a lot of detail inti dragon riding. I wouldn't be surprised if the third rider was Brown Benn lol. As for why three Kings Guardsmen were sent to protect Lyanna? I think the L+R=J theory fits more smoothly. What did you guys think of HBOs depiction of the Thenns? I wasn't thrilled with it, but I think it reveals a little about Rickon's fate in Skagos. The book only mentions that that there are rumors that some groups of Wildings practiced cannibalism. I guess it's no longer a rumor.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date

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