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CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() Mike D’Antoni’s New York Nightmare
By: Tommy Beer Last Updated: 8/11/11 7:53 AM ET | 6560 times read Adjust font size:They tell us that there are eight million stories in The City. This one is about a guy who made millions but has had a really hard time catching a break since signing a big contract to coach in the Big Apple…
2006 NBA Draft Lottery: Re-Drafted: If the Class of 2006 was re-drafted today, knowing what we now know, who... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- View Tommy Beer Archive Still, as the exit interviews were wrapping up in late April, the promise and potential heading into the 2011-2012 season was palpable. With Amar'e and Carmelo as the team's starting forwards, complemented by a healthy Billups at the point, this was a team that was expected to do damage. Assuming Walsh would continue to work his magic and add a starting center to the mix either via free agency or an off-season trade, expectations steadily rose.
Wondering how the lockout might play out once the season actually gets closer? HOOPSWORLD's Mark Nugent takes a look back at 1998, the way the lockout progressed and how it ended in this exclusive! When the New York Knicks signed head coach Mike D'Antoni there was a great deal of optimism about the future of the franchise. Now that optimism is significantly diminished and seems to be dropping by the day. HOOPSWORLD's Tommy Beer takes a look at Mike D'Antoni's New York Nightmare!
Use your ← → (arrow) keys to browse more storiesNext Ezra Shaw/Getty Images James Dolan made the right decision by letting Donnie Walsh walk. Now Dolan’s history of “questionable” moves should garner some skepticism, but this one singular decision is one moment in time that the Knicks owner made the right move. As a person Donnie Walsh is as well-respected an NBA mind as there is in the league today. As a general manager he is intelligent, meticulous and diligent in putting together a quality NBA roster. The one thing Donnie Walsh is not is a champion. Not as a coach, as Walsh’s career coaching record is 60-82 with one playoff win. Not as a general manager, as the Indiana Pacers made the NBA Finals once and lost to the Los Angeles Lakers in six games. James Dolan, like most NBA fans, wants to win a championship. Also like most fanatics, he is extreme and unyielding in his desire in obtaining the Larry O’Brien trophy. Dolan has made horrendous move after horrific move and has received his fair share of criticism for making those moronic moves. However, in this particular moment Dolan needs to no longer delay the inevitable and relieve D’Antoni of his duties. The coach who traded Rajon Rondo and said he would never make it on his team has peaked, and it should be apparent to all parties involved that the Knicks will never win a championship with D’Antoni at the helm. His refusal to coach defense, yet alone bring in players who give maximum effort on the defensive end, has proven to be a flawed philosophy in the playoffs. In nine years as an NBA head coach, D’Antoni’s teams have never ranked higher than 23rd in points allowed per game and 13th in opponent’s field goal percentage. What makes this so alarming is his teams have ranked in the bottom five of the league in opponents total points allowed and opponents points per game allowed eight of the nine years he has been a head coach. He is incapable of instilling a defensive philosophy that can be mildly successful, yet alone dominant. His lack of defensive competence ensures New York will not be having a championship parade any time soon. His supporters will say he is a great offensive mind, but truth is he has been fortunate to coach great offensive players. This has allowed him to appear better then he actually is. The Knicks were and are infested with just all right. Both Walsh and D’Antoni have won division crowns, but neither has won nor seems close to winning a championship. So if you are not winning, you are losing. This may sound simple; however, it is the truest concept when dealing with sports. SHould the Knicks fire Mike D'Antoni?
The Knicks must replace all right with exceptional. Winners begets winners, period. It is no mistake the Lakers, Celtics, Steelers and Yankees are always competing for supremacy. They have people in place who have won before. In short D’Antoni must be replaced by someone who has won an NBA championship, either as a player or as a coach. The Knicks must start implementing a championship atmosphere around their players and rid the organization of people who have not won the ultimate prize. It is easy for people to provide complaints, but it is much harder for those same individuals to provide a reasonable change for those same complaints. Well, here is a change to go along with my complaint. The name that is about to be suggested will shock you. However, his resume and pedigree are unparalleled. Rick Barry would be a perfect fit for the New York Knicks, and before you past judgment, read further. Barry as a player was an offensive force. He led the NBA in scoring in 1967 (35.5 points per) and four years later led the ABA in scoring (31.4 points per). More importantly in 1975, he along with Jamaal Wilkes, led the Golden State Warriors to their first and only NBA championship. The Warriors defeated a Washington Bullets team that had won 60 games that year.
His four sons have all gone on to play basketball at the professional level. That is correct: Barry was able to teach the game of basketball at such a high level that it enabled four of his closet students to reach the highest level of play. Barry would be the perfect selection, but sadly this choice seems far-fetched. Barry’s commitment to excellence and basketball I.Q. are indubitable, but this hire seems very unlikely. Yet, a new coach is necessary if the Knicks want new results. James Dolan has made it abundantly clear that he will make changes regardless of who is involved, and he is not concerned with what the masses think. So with Walsh gone and two of the most explosive players in the NBA calling Gotham City their home, the Knicks looked primed for championship runs, not playoff and possible division-winning runs. Their next head coach must be someone who can bring something to the table those players have not partaken in. Firing Donnie Walsh was the first move in building a championship foundation, so it is imperative that the next move follows this blueprint.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() nixluva wrote:I like how you avoid the hiring or lack of hiring of Thibs and then focus on what Shaq didn't bring to the Suns. Here is your boy on the Shaq tradeCrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:IMO MDA is already a Championship Caliber coach. This team hasn't been championship calber!!! How would Jax do here with the teams we've had over the last decade? Jax had one of the best rosters in BB and didn't win it this year, so what would his chances be here with this roster? For those who think that the Coach you have is more important than the roster you have, I must ask how you can back up such a claim! Give this team a PG capable of running PnR and Drive and kick and a real Center and I think this team can get to the finals. We haven't had that and still don't have that so the holes that have been our biggest issues are still our biggest issues. It's not really about the coach at this point. Once you have championship level talent then you can nitpick about the coach.I think if you look at 07-08 both D'Antoni and Doc had a big three. There was a difference that should be noted. Both Doc and D'Antoni had the opportunity to hire Thibs as their defensive assistant. Doc did and won a championship, D'Antoni hired his brother Dan instead and was in NY the following season. In closing, D'Antoni defends the Feb. 28 decision to trade Shawn Marion for Shaquille O'Neal. I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
![]() I'm not sure what you're point was supposed to be with the last article you quoted. My only point was that there was a positive and a negative aspect to adding Shaq. IMO adding Thibs doesn't change the dynamics of adding Shaq to that team. He was unable to slow down Duncan and was absolutely useless slowing down Tony Parker off PnR. It's just the facts. Shaq was a help rebounding and giving the team needed size, but at the same time The Spurs used the Hack A Shaq to slow down the Suns as well.
You seem to think that all they had to do was add Thibs and all of a sudden the teams Defense is stellar. Well a HUGE part of what made the Celtics D work was adding a true defensive Anchor in KG. He's the engine that made that defense work along with a solid Center in Perkins. You also have a real defensive PG in Rondo verses probably the worst defensive PG in Nash. It's not about the Coach all the time. You still have to have the right kind of players to effectively improve defensively. This is what I like about what the Knicks tried to do with the draft. Both Iman and Jorts are tough defensive players. That is their nature. We're not forcing them to be something they're not. It's my belief that you have to have a certain percentage of defensively talented players and that's got nothing to do with what defensive assistant coach you have. The Bulls have a lot of really good physical talent that Thibs could work with. High energy bigs and overall good size and athletic ability. That's always got to be your starting point. As the Knicks improve the amount of capable defensive players they have then the D will improve. I fully expect that if this team can sign a solid C that can hold down the paint, this team will be much improved defensively next season. I think the percentage of capable defensive players is close enough that with a solid C this team will improve. IMO many of the players we have in the rotation will be able to defend their positions well enough to improve the team D. The Key is the C spot. |
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() My point was that both Doc and D'Antoni were flawed coaches. One recognized his flaw and hired an assistant head coach to help with it. The other did not recognize his flaw, still hasn't won a championship and is receiving the same criticisms that he got when he had a team of all stars and the mvp at the point. I think it was telling that he said that he would not have made the Shaq trade without Nash's approval.
By the way, I don't think your only point was that there is a positive/negative to the Shaq trade. Whenever you become defensive in your posts, i.e. "You are a funny guy..." and side stepping the point I think you totally get it but can't defend what was is being said. D'Antoni never saw the flaws in his system or how lucky he was to have Nash to give the reigns of his team to. Hiring his brother, a high school coach, over Thibs was a mistake and a statement to his gm. I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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Nalod
Posts: 71155 Alba Posts: 155 Joined: 12/24/2003 Member: #508 USA |
![]() CrushAlot wrote:I am not a fan of D'Antoni's but I thought the Bleacher Report article was pretty weak. I don't see how you endorse firing Walsh and some of the other things said. The whole thing was weak. And where is Thibs turning down a Knick offer? Doesn't Doc end up with a championship roster really have more to do than Thibs? Nobody says Dan "D" is the man, but really, only last season was any reality of MDA having a worthy roster of making the playoffs. You go on sometimes like MDA is so amiss with scores of blown opportunities. |
nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
![]() CrushAlot wrote:My point was that both Doc and D'Antoni were flawed coaches. One recognized his flaw and hired an assistant head coach to help with it. The other did not recognize his flaw, still hasn't won a championship and is receiving the same criticisms that he got when he had a team of all stars and the mvp at the point. I think it was telling that he said that he would not have made the Shaq trade without Nash's approval. So you think that if MDA hires Thibs that he wins a title? You think this is the only thing that was needed for his team to get to the finals? Thibs is not a miracle maker. It's arguable that Thibs had a GREAT shot to get to the finals this year and so far hasn't gotten any further as a head coach than MDA has. Thibs had all the defensive talent in the world to work with and led them to being the #1 defensive team in the league. My thing is that Thibs won a title with Doc and the C's cuz they had a great mix of talent for both coaches to work with. That squad was really setup to be a great defensive team. Start with the middle and you have KG and Perkins. That's a SOLID core to your defense. Then you've got Rondo up top and he's a great PG to have in terms of defense. He's quick and long and athletic. That made it much easier for the other two All Stars to do their part on D. Thibs is a great defensive coach, but just like offensive coaches need talent to succeed so do defensively oriented coaches. I really don't give a crap about Thibs. My focus is on this team finally filling the massive holes we've had in the middle and to a lesser degree at the point. Did you know that most teams use pretty much the same defensive schemes. In fact the Knicks play a similar scheme to that of the Bulls. The huge difference is the personnel. The Bulls and Celtics tied for No. 1 in defensive efficiency this season, as measured in points allowed per 100 possessions. Both teams allowed 100.3. Chicago was also No. 1 in opponents’ effective field-goal percentage, which is weighted to account for 3-pointers. Notice that group of players that are at the heart of the defense for the Bulls? Do the Knicks have the same kind of defensive talent in the paint? In boston he had KG and Perkins etc. You have to have a core of defensive talent to work with. Don't give me an aging Shaq who can't move like he used to or the garbage we've had here as anything you can even come close to comparing with what Thibs has had in his last 2 jobs. Get the defensive talent and then we can talk. |
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() Nalod wrote:I think if your boss tells you to hire a defensive specialist and you pass up Thibs for your brother who is a high school coach you are thumbing your nose at his wishes. If the team that hires Thibs wins a championship and you are working in a different city the next season I think there is some egg on your face.CrushAlot wrote:I am not a fan of D'Antoni's but I thought the Bleacher Report article was pretty weak. I don't see how you endorse firing Walsh and some of the other things said. I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() nixluva wrote:I think Lawerence Frank and Thibs are workaholics that are obseesed with preperation and make sure that their teams are prepared defensively. I have never heard those words associated with D'Antoni. Thibs went from having the best defense in Boston to coaching the best defense in Chicago. That isn't coaching? About ThibsCrushAlot wrote:My point was that both Doc and D'Antoni were flawed coaches. One recognized his flaw and hired an assistant head coach to help with it. The other did not recognize his flaw, still hasn't won a championship and is receiving the same criticisms that he got when he had a team of all stars and the mvp at the point. I think it was telling that he said that he would not have made the Shaq trade without Nash's approval. Thibodeau was known as a defensive mastermind who helped Boston win a championship in 2008 and get back to the finals last season. He also had that reputation as a workaholic and still does. "Every time I walk in, I look up there to see if his light is on, and if he's in the office, I'd get on the court and pretend like I'm working hard," forward Luol Deng said. "I'm kidding. But every time I'd come in, his light is on. The video guys, the coaches, it's just been one of those years. Every time I came in, I'd get on the floor (and) someone is ready to come down. "I don't know if he gets here at 5 or 6," he continued. "He's here early and he's the last one to leave." Thibodeau's only other head coaching job was for one season at his alma mater, Division III Salem State, in the mid-1980s. He got that after three years as an assistant. He then spent four seasons on the staff at Harvard before going to work under Bill Musselman with the expansion Minnesota Timberwolves in 1989. From there, Thibodeau embarked on a long path that ultimately led to this. There were stops in San Antonio, Philadelphia, New York and Houston, and along the way, he developed a reputation as a defensive wizard and hardworking assistant, one that continued to grow in Boston. The unknown, though, was how he would fare as the guy in charge. "I knew in the first couple of weeks that he was here that we had hit a grand slam," general manager Gar Forman said. The Bulls were looking for more after back-to-back 41-win seasons under Del Negro, and hiring Thibodeau was the next step in a massive overhaul. They struck out trying to land LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in free agency, but they wound up with Boozer and one of the deepest rotations in the league. It helped that Derrick Rose took another big leap, going from Rookie of the Year to All-Star and now an MVP favorite in just his third season. He and Thibodeau immediately clicked, and the rest of the team bought in, too. Noah immediately realized Thibodeau was the right choice during their daily summer workouts. "That's not something that every head coach does," he said. "To work out a player individually every day in the summer, to me that says a lot. At the same time, I feel like your coach is your leader." Not since the Jordan-Pippen era have the Bulls been this good. They lost back-to-back games only four times during the regular season and never dropped more than two in a row, despite the injuries to Boozer and Noah. On defense, they ranked among the stingiest. No team held opponents to a lower shooting percentage or outrebounded them by a wider margin than the Bulls, who were also second to Miami in average scoring differential. That was hardly a surprise, given their coach's reputation. Players, meanwhile, mention Thibodeau's presence, his ability to command their attention. And, of course, his work ethic, his attention to detail. At shootarounds, the Bulls will analyze every option in their opponent's playbook, and they will often look toward the sideline when they hear a call during games because their coach knows what's coming. About the only thing they don't understand is why it took so long for the 53-year-old Thibodeau to get hired. His name often came up when there were openings the past few years, including Chicago's in 2008, but the wait stretched on. Now, look at him. "Fundamentally, he has not changed," said forward Brian Scalabrine, who played for Thibodeau in Boston. "His grind is just let's get this win today, let's focus on Game 1 in the Atlanta Hawks series. What are they going to do and then the adjustments we have to do. It's not about Boston, Miami or whether the Spurs lost." I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
![]() So you think that all of that you just mentioned means that Thibs is a better headcoach than MDA? Maybe he is but I doubt it. They're both good coaches. Thibs Bulls team was already a pretty good defensive team when he got there. His great coaching took them to another level. Good for him. That doesn't diminish the fact that MDA was able to turn Nash into a 2x MVP and also take his team to the Conference Finals. Both coaches have had success with their own styles.
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fishmike
Posts: 53828 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
![]() what garbage. But I'm sure with the 20th best player in the NBA Mike D will have the Knicks back on top in no time.
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/15/top-100-nba-players-nos-11-20/ Anthony is a subpar defender, a master of lazy switches and emphatic pointing, through which he indicates that one of his teammates should very kindly guard the guy Carmelo was just guarding. It’s fine if you want to ignore this, delete the latest Knicks defensive atrocity from your memory and revel in the 25 points Anthony scored that night. There are reasons the Knicks played better defense without him, and the Nuggets’ defense improved when he left. Anthony is talented enough to be better than this, and perhaps the Knicks’ move to hire a “defensive coordinator” for coach Mike D’Antoni will create the kind of systematic accountability that is needed for Carmelo to play up to his full potential. I guess in year 9 when Melo still blows on defense we have the coach to blame. All is right in Knick land "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
![]() fishmike wrote:what garbage. But I'm sure with the 20th best player in the NBA Mike D will have the Knicks back on top in no time. You have to have defensive talent to truly excel on D. So far Thibs has proven to be a great coach of defensive principals, but none of that means jack squat without players that can translate that to the court. If you have CB, Melo and STAT as big minute starters you already are starting with a bad core of defensive players. CB tries, but isn't quick enough to be a serious perimeter defender. So that's the situation we find ourselves in. All we can do is put more defensive players around them and hope to get a better effort from them. It's not that Melo and STAT can't play better defense, it's just that they haven't historically been 48 minute a night defenders. Still I think this team can play enough D to win if we can fill the hole at C. I like the addition of Iman who can be used in a more defensive unit off the bench. I think TD, Iman, Fields, Williams and even Walker have the physical talent to be good defenders. Question is can Jordan and Jorts give us anything at C? Will we be able to add another solid vet at C to build up the position? |
Nalod
Posts: 71155 Alba Posts: 155 Joined: 12/24/2003 Member: #508 USA |
![]() Where was Thibs rejected for the knicks? Where was he interviewed and not hired?
And quite frankly, with the roster we had the first two years why an aspiring head coach take on a a knick team with a two year transition plan even bother? It would be a stupid career move for him. Crush, its ok you don't like mike but to fabricate things, and really believe we at this moment even close to be a contender is kind of foolish. WE have no interior defense to speak of. Our roster at the 5 spot is very suspect at the moment. Rony has not proven in years he can be full time and "Jorts" is not the savior. Anything can happen going forward but this roster as it stands would be hard for even phil Jax to get out of the first round. Its a good team. How good? Too early to even think about it. |
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
![]() Nalod wrote:Where was Thibs rejected for the knicks? Where was he interviewed and not hired?I never said he was rejected by the Knicks. If you read back over the thread, Nix compared D'Antoni to Rivers. MY point was that prior to the 07-08 season Kerr and Sarver wanted D'Antoni to hire Thibs and he chose his brother and Doc chose Thibs. Doc won a championship and that was D'Antoni's last year in Phoenix. I am not making wild claims or just throwing things out. Sometimes I am writing in reaction to what others wrote. I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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Nalod
Posts: 71155 Alba Posts: 155 Joined: 12/24/2003 Member: #508 USA |
![]() Sarver would have paid Thibs what Boston did? I thought he was about the highest paid assistant coach in the league. Any article that shows that PHX was willing to pay him? Lots of coaches interview, but its serious when the money is on the table. Does Ewing interview in Detroit make him a bonafide head coach? My point? Even if Thibs interviewed does not mean Thibs was interested in the gig given he might have had his own agenda and price. Try to understand, its not that I am defending MDA, its just looking at it objectively that much of the teams success and failure rests on the roster composition. |