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Do NBA tems lose money because of the system?
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Rookie
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7/6/2011  9:33 AM
saw this quote and it made me think....do teams really lose money because of the system...of are there outside factors that really shouldn't be brought to the bargaining table....surely if they want a guaranteed return, maybe they should buy bonds :)

"JZ: Do you think the NBA's report that 22 teams were in the red accurate?
RM: We're not out here questioning their books, so do we think that 22 teams lost money because of the system? No, we don't feel like the system is the reason that 22 teams lost money."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/5630/mason-both-sides-want-to-make-a-deal

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Vmart
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7/6/2011  10:18 AM
NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.
Moonangie
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7/6/2011  10:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  10:34 AM
Interesting take on this question in today's NYT:

July 5, 2011, 10:45 AM
Calling Foul on N.B.A.’s Claims of Financial Distress
By NATE SILVER
At midnight on Thursday, the N.B.A. locked out its players in what could be the start of a long labor dispute. Some observers, like ESPN’s Michael Wilbon, believe the entire 2011-12 season could be threatened.

Such a move would not be without precedent: the N.H.L. canceled its 2004-5 season. But the N.B.A.’s current financial condition is different than the N.H.L.’s in one important respect. Whereas there was almost no doubt that the N.H.L. was in fact losing money in advance of its lockout — player salaries had mushroomed by more than 400 percent from 1994 to 2004, according to independent estimates — the N.B.A.’s claims of financial hardship should be viewed more skeptically.

Instead, independent estimates of the N.B.A. financial condition reflect a league that has grown at a somewhat tepid rate compared to other sports, and which has an uneven distribution of revenues between teams — but which is fundamentally a healthy and profitable business. In addition, it is not clear that growth in player salaries, which has been modest compared to other sports and which is strictly pegged to league revenue, is responsible for the league’s difficulties.

The table below reflects the N.B.A.’s financial condition from its 1989-90 through 2009-10 seasons, as according to estimates prepared by Forbes and Financial World magazines. (All figures are adjusted for inflation. Some data was not published by Forbes in some years and is therefore left blank.)

The first column is league’s gate receipts or ticket revenues; the Forbes data suggest this is one area of legitimate concern. Adjusted for inflation, ticket revenues are down 6 percent compared to five years ago, although they are up 22 percent compared to the 1999-2000 season.

Other revenues, like licensing and media rights, have increased at a healthier clip, because the N.B.A. is locked into long and lucrative television contracts. They have grown by 11 percent over five years, adjusted for inflation, or by 30 percent over 10 years.

The league’s primary expense is player salaries. They have followed a nearly identical trajectory to league revenues, having grown at a 24 percent rate over 10 years, but with growth having flattened out since the recession. This is not a coincidence: under the league’s current collective bargaining agreement, player salaries are strictly tied to league revenues. In fact, because of a little-known provision in the labor agreement, players must return a portion of their salaries if they exceed 57 percent of league revenues, as has happened in several recent seasons. As I will discuss at more length later, the portion of revenues earned by N.B.A. players is similar to that of the other major sports leagues and has been stable over the past decade.

Growth in non-player expenses has outpaced that of salaries, having increased by 13 percent over five years and 43 percent over 10 years. Although some of this undoubtedly reflects sound business ventures, like the league’s investments in digital media or efforts to expand the game internationally, they have nevertheless had a reasonably large effect on the league’s bottom line. Had nonplayer expenses been the same in 2009-10 as they were in 1999-2000 (adjusted for inflation), the league would have made a record profit that year.

Even as it stands, however, the Forbes data suggests that the league is still profitable. Its operating income — revenues less expenses (but before interest payments and taxes) — is estimated to have been $183 million in 2009-10, or about $6 million per team. The N.B.A.’s operating margin (operating income divided by revenues) was about 5 percent in 2009-10 and has been about 7 percent during the life of the current labor deal.

A 5 percent or 7 percent profit is not dissimilar to what other businesses have experienced recently. Fortune 500 companies, for instance, collectively turned a 4.0 percent profit in 2009 and a 6.6 percent profit in 2010 (both figures after taxes). Profit margins in the entertainment industry, in which the N.B.A. should probably be classified, have generally been a bit lower than that.

So why are N.B.A. owners seeking such significant reductions in player salaries, reportedly to about 45 percent of league revenues? The simple reason is that they think they can — and this reflects an awful lot of money. If salaries were reduced to 45 percent of revenues, this would save the owners roughly $500 million per year, or about $3 billion over the course of a six-year labor contract. It is hard to estimate either the near or the long-term cost of cancelling a season, but the potential gain from a more favorable contract is large enough that it is something the owners might be willing to risk.

What the owners may be thinking about is their position compared to that of the other sports leagues. Baseball and football are cash cows, with the N.F.L. having brought in more than a billion in profits (before taxes) in 2009, and Major League Baseball about $500 million in its most recent season.

By contrast, the N.B.A.’s position is more comparable to that of the N.H.L. Several N.B.A. owners also own N.H.L. teams, and they may be looking to that league’s lockout as having been successful, because it recovered from $228 million in operating losses in the three seasons preceding its lockout (according to the Forbes data) to a state of profitability comparable to the N.B.A.’s.

It is not clear, however, how much player salaries are to blame for the N.B.A.’s having failed to achieve an N.F.L.-like level of profit. Between 2000 and 2009, player salaries in the N.F.L. represented an average of 56 percent of league revenues, and that total averaged 58 percent in Major League Baseball — both close to the 57 percent target enshrined under the N.B.A.’s current deal. By contrast, when the N.H.L. locked out its players and was losing money, player salaries made up 66 of league revenue. (They have since fallen to about 54 percent.)

The other factor is the distribution of revenue from team to team: 17 of the 30 N.B.A. teams lost money in 2009-10, according to the Forbes data. Most of the losses were small, and the league was still profitable as a whole because of profits made by successful franchises like the New York Knicks, Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers, who together netted about $150 million by themselves. But there are a sizable number of owners who have reason to be unhappy.

In some ways, the N.B.A.’s present condition closely resembles that of Major League baseball before its 1994-95 strike. Baseball was still profitable as a whole in advance of the strike, but about one-third of its teams had lost money in 1993, according to Forbes, while just four teams accounted for almost half of all league profits.

The solution that baseball has since adopted — greater revenue sharing in lieu of a salary cap — could also be a natural one for the N.B.A.: the profits made by the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers alone would be enough to cover the losses of all 17 unprofitable teams. (Players might have some reason to object to revenue sharing — some versions of it are the economic equivalent of a tax on player salaries — but they would probably prefer it to the more draconian measures that the league will try to impose.)

Another way in which the N.B.A. resembles baseball, unfortunately, is by having circulated financial data that doesn’t necessarily hold up to scrutiny. In 2001, Major League Baseball issued figures suggesting that it had incurred losses of $232 million before interest and taxes; Forbes’s independent estimates instead suggested that the league had made a profit of $127 million. But that year’s labor dispute, and the next in 2006, were resolved amiably and with few changes to baseball’s economic structure, and years of profits have followed since.

A similar discrepancy exists today between Forbes’s estimates — a $183 million profit for the N.B.A. in 2009-10, and those issued by the league, which claim a $340 million loss. The difference between the two numbers is roughly of the same size on an annual basis as the salary concessions the N.B.A. is seeking.

There are several reasons to be skeptical of the N.B.A.’s figures. First, many of the purported losses — perhaps about $250 million — result from an unusual accounting treatment related to depreciation and amortization when a team is sold. While the accounting treatment is legal, these paper losses would have no impact on a team’s cash flow. Another potential (and usually within-the-law) trick: moving income from the basketball team’s balance sheet to that of a related business like a cable network, or losses in the opposite direction.

Second, the leaked financial statements for one team, the New Orleans Hornets, closely matched the Forbes data. And the sale prices for some teams have exceeded their figures. The Golden State Warriors were purchased for $450 million in 2010 — more than the $363 million that Forbes estimates they are worth. The Detroit Pistons were recently sold for a price reported to be about $420 million, more than Forbes’s estimated value of $360 million. The Washington Wizards were bought for $551 million last year, a 70 percent premium over Forbes’s estimated price of $322 million. Comparing actual to theoretical sale prices is not always safe because other assets are sometimes packaged with the teams, but the market for N.B.A. franchises is clearly quite healthy and inconsistent with what the league claims to be a failing business model.

The third reason for skepticism: the N.B.A.’s data has not been made public, although it has been shared with the players’ union. If the league expects their figures to be viewed credibly, they should open up their books to journalists, economists and fans.

Fourth, the current labor deal — which was signed in 1999 and renewed with relatively few changes in 2005 — was initially considered favorable to the league. Although revenue growth may have been more tepid than the league might like, especially in the past few recessionary years, player salaries are tied to revenues and have grown at no faster a rate. The claims made by sports owners on the occasion of a labor dispute — smart and successful capitalists who suddenly become enamored of restrictions on the free market and their own wherewithal to make decisions — often stretch credulity. But to hear the N.B.A. owners complain about the current deal now, when none of the fundamentals have changed, reminds one of the old Woody Allen joke about two women kvetching at a restaurant: “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible,” one says. “I know. And such small portions,” the other replies.

Put another way, there is no reason to assume that the N.B.A.’s actual financial condition falls somewhere in between the two figures: it may be just as likely that Forbes is underestimating rather overestimating the league’s profits. For instance, The Times reports the league’s revenues (not profits) to have been $4.3 billion in 2010-11, more than the $3.8 billion estimated by Forbes for 2009-10. (One reason that the Forbes estimates could be too low: it has become more difficult to measure ticket revenue since teams are now designating some of their most expensive tickets as ‘premium seating,’ and these seats are not reflected in publicly-available estimates of ticket prices.)

None of this means that the N.B.A. is without problems. For instance, the sluggish growth in ticket revenues may suggest that the league’s fans, who are younger than those for other sports and more likely to be African-American, are being priced out of the stadium experience.

In addition, the fact that a significant number of teams are failing to turn a profit, even by the Forbes estimates, reflects a potential lack of competitive balance in the league. Since 1990, a total of eight distinct N.B.A. teams have won a championship, compared to 13 teams in each of the other major sports leagues. Although some of this has to do with factors intrinsic to the structure of basketball, the current salary cap rules may worsen matters by limiting player movement, making it difficult for teams to rebuild. Fans in many cities have little realistic hope of seeing a championship any time soon.

Nor does this mean that we aren’t in for a long lockout. Rather, the fact that the N.B.A. has released financial data that is so at odds with estimates provided by credible and unbiased organizations like Forbes suggests that the league’s owners are armed to win the public relations battle — a key part of what could be a yearlong war of words with their players.

An earlier version misstated the loss claimed by the N.B.A. as $370 million.

Bonn1997
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7/6/2011  11:02 AM
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

I'd have no problem with those who do the real work making 90% of the salary.

BasketballJones
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7/6/2011  11:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  11:06 AM
There's another later article with the NBA's rebuttal.

N.B.A. Disputes Forbes Analysis Suggesting League is Profitable
By NATE SILVER

In a statement e-mailed to The Times, Tim Frank, a spokesman for the National Basketball Association, has disputed an analysis by Forbes Magazine suggesting that the N.B.A. turned a $183 million operating profit in its 2009-10 season. Instead, according to Mr. Frank, the league lost $340 million that year and has lost money every year during the current collective bargaining agreement.

Mr. Frank also disputes several other claims in the Forbes analysis, which was the basis of my article on the league’s financial condition this morning. In addition, he has disputed claims about the league’s accounting procedures and financial condition made by other sources cited in the article, and the attendant characterizations about them in the FiveThirtyEight analysis.

Mr. Frank’s full statement is reproduced below:

The information from Forbes that serves as the basis for this article is inaccurate and we do not know how they do their calculations. Forbes does not have the financial data for our teams and the magazine’s estimates do not reflect reality.

Precisely to avoid this issue, the N.B.A. and its teams shared their complete league and team audited financials as well as our state and Federal tax returns with the Players Union. Those financials demonstrate the substantial and indisputable losses the league has incurred over the past several years.

The analysis that was posted this afternoon has several significant factual inaccuracies, including:

“[The N.B.A.] is a fundamentally healthy and profitable business”

¶ The league lost money every year of the just expiring CBA. During these years, the league has never had positive Net Income, EBITDA or Operating Income.

“Many of the purported losses result from an unusual accounting treatment related to depreciation and amortization when a team is sold.”

¶ We use the conventional and generally accepted accounting (GAAP) approach and include in our financial reporting the depreciation of the capital expenditures made in the normal course of business by the teams as they are a substantial and necessary cost of doing business.

We do not include purchase price amortization from when a team is sold or under any circumstances in any of our reported losses. Put simply, none of the league losses are related to team purchase or sale accounting.

“Another trick … moving income from the team’s balance sheet to that of a related business like a cable network…”

¶ All revenues included in Basketball Related Income (“BRI”) and reported in our financial statements have been audited by an accounting firm jointly engaged by the players’ union and the league. They include basketball revenues reported on related entities’ books.

“Ticket revenues … are up 22% compared to 1999-2000 season”

¶ Ticket revenues have increased 12% over the 10 year period, not the 22% reported.

“17 teams lost money according to Forbes … Most of these losses were small…”

¶ Forbes’s claim is inaccurate. In 2009-10, 23 teams had net income losses. The losses were in no way “small” as 11 teams lost more than $20M each on a net income basis.

“The profits made by the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers alone would be enough to cover the losses of all 17 unprofitable teams.”

¶ The Knicks’, Bulls’ and Lakers’ combined net income for 2009-10 does not cover the losses of the 23 unprofitable teams. Our net loss for that year, including the gains from the seven profitable teams, was -$340 million.

“Forbes’s estimates – a $183 million profit for the NBA in 2009-10, and those issued by the league, which claim a $370M loss…”

¶ Forbes’s data is inaccurate. Our losses for 2009-10 were -$340 million, not -$370 million as the article states.

“The leaked financial statements for one team, the New Orleans Hornets, closely matched the Forbes data …”

¶ This is not an accurate statement as operating income in the latest Forbes data (2009-10) is $5M greater than what is reported in the Hornets audited financials.

One specific point of clarification: the Hornets’ leaked financial data reported a $6.4 million loss in 2007-8 but a $5.9 million gain in 2008-9. By comparison, the Forbes data estimated a $3 million gain in 2007-8 but a small loss of less than $1 million in 2008-9. The difference between the two figures — an average of about $1.5 million over the two-year period — is small. Mr. Frank, however, is referring to the Hornets’ financial performance in 2009-10, which was not detailed in the leaked data.

Otherwise, I simply have no way to adjudicate the N.B.A.’s claims. Mr. Frank’s statement includes several specific claims that have the league has not made publicly before, but in general the league has not made substantial detail on its financial condition, or its accounting procedures, available to the general public.

The Forbes data may suffer from this lack of publicly-available information, but they remain the only independent estimates of the league’s financial condition. In my view, a degree of skepticism is appropriate toward any claims made about the N.B.A.’s finances.

I look forward to continuing to report on the story as further information becomes available.

https:// It's not so hard.
BasketballJones
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7/6/2011  11:09 AM
Maybe the NBA just has too many crappy teams?
https:// It's not so hard.
Bonn1997
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7/6/2011  11:17 AM
BasketballJones wrote:Maybe the NBA just has too many crappy teams?

How can all these teams be losing money and stay in existence? It doesn't add up. Maybe the owners should make better decisions.
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7/6/2011  11:23 AM
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

Papabear Says

Wallstreet players make what they want so why can't NBA players. There should be no cap. Teams that can't pay the price should join a minor league. The Knicks should not suffer because of poor markets.

Papabear
Bonn1997
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7/6/2011  11:31 AM
Papabear wrote:
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

Papabear Says

Wallstreet players make what they want so why can't NBA players. There should be no cap. Teams that can't pay the price should join a minor league. The Knicks should not suffer because of poor markets.

Imagine JP Morgan trying to get all the privileges NBA owners have (max contracts, ability to draft and trade workers without their permission). The owners don't realize how good they have it.

Vmart
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7/6/2011  12:46 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Papabear wrote:
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

Papabear Says

Wallstreet players make what they want so why can't NBA players. There should be no cap. Teams that can't pay the price should join a minor league. The Knicks should not suffer because of poor markets.

Imagine JP Morgan trying to get all the privileges NBA owners have (max contracts, ability to draft and trade workers without their permission). The owners don't realize how good they have it.

How good do they have it? Some owners make money some lose money that is why there are only what 6 NBA teams that made any kind of money the rest are broke. Minor league man you would be putting the entire league in the minors with six teams playing the game. For any sport to work you have to have competition.

tkf
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7/6/2011  1:55 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Papabear wrote:
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

Papabear Says

Wallstreet players make what they want so why can't NBA players. There should be no cap. Teams that can't pay the price should join a minor league. The Knicks should not suffer because of poor markets.

Imagine JP Morgan trying to get all the privileges NBA owners have (max contracts, ability to draft and trade workers without their permission). The owners don't realize how good they have it.

JP morgan is not in a league.. now if there were another league competing against the NBA then you can talk about that kind of competition.. but in a league, it behooves all owners that there is a good product on the floor, no matter what team is playing..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
PresIke
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7/6/2011  2:08 PM
Vmart wrote:NBA loses money because the players make a ridiculous sum of money. They take 50%+ of the revenue and they are the sole reason why ticket prices are marked up. IMHO there should be no player in the league making more than 10 million a year. I propose a cap on players salary. It ain't like there are a bunch of Jordan type players running around the league.

read up on the article below and others that suggest this is not showing to be a legit claim.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/6/2011  2:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  2:13 PM
my primary issue is that the owners are trying to take advantage of the knowledge that fans who don't know the reality of what goes on will more likely blame the players. meanwhile, it appears that there is reason to believe the owners (in general) are lying about their numbers and the nba is not only profitable, but the issues that it faces that are real could be fixed with other than the nuclear solution they are trying. in the end it is their greater greed that screws the fan, and the players.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/6/2011  2:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  6:07 PM
it really sounds like the answer is revenue sharing and some concessions by the players (which i suspect most would be willing to make).

so who's the more greedy party?

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/6/2011  2:17 PM
hey nba owners...

open your books to prove us wrong...

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Andrew
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7/6/2011  2:24 PM
PresIke wrote:hey nba owners...

open your books to prove us wrong...

I think the owners have opened their books to the players, and I've seen at least 1 report where a player rep states they don't dispute the numbers. What is up for debate is how much responsibility each party takes for the results.

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PresIke
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7/6/2011  2:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  6:06 PM
yeah, i read that in the times piece, but they haven't to journalists, and the public who they appear to be using to help their cause.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
TheGame
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7/6/2011  5:37 PM
The Forbes article is right on. The solution to this is quite simple by the owners don't want to do it. The players are willing to drop their take of the revenue by 7-10%. You do a 10% across the board cut in all player salaries, you reduce the BRI percentage to the players from 57% to maybe 47-49%. You limit yearly increases in contracts to maybe 7% instead of the current 12.5%, you then make the MLE limited to 3years and you reduce guaranteed contract lengths to 5/4 years. You make all these changes and then force the 10 largest markets to share more of their revenue with the smaller market teams. If you make these changes, there is no way any team will lose money unless they are just poorly run or are already way overextended in debt.
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7/6/2011  8:12 PM
The general consensus in American business is to put the price of recession we are in on the workers.
Same is going on with NBA.
The idea that workers will work same or even better after their real income will be reduced is plain stuppid.
They will work way worth (if at all) and the owners and companies who are forcing the loses on workers will lose even more.
The only way to get back in healthy business is to fire majority of burocrats, stop spending on huppla, and improve efficiency.
But with the overal degradation of the management and ownership it is not likely.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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7/6/2011  8:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2011  9:02 PM
Owners lose money because of the owners. None of these owners rely on their teams to make money. There are many tax benefits to having vanity assets like teams lose money. They get to reduce their income which gets taxed at regular income rates (35% or more), and when they sell their teams they get taxed at long term capital gains rates (15%).

There are numerous ways the wealthy have to shield their income from taxation. A basketball team is actually a pretty good way. You get to write off interest on the loan you used to buy the team, you get to depreciate the players contracts, owners with stadiums get to depreciate that as well... all of these things allow teams that are making money to look like they are losing money.

Do you think it's right that owners can use their teams as tax shelters, and use the losses from these shelters as the main argument in getting clawbacks from players?

Rose is not the answer.
Do NBA tems lose money because of the system?

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