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Hahn: Owners proposal on Tuesday proposed a cap range - mid point is $62M - high end is $70M hard cap
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crzymdups
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6/22/2011  11:34 AM
Why aren't the players taking this deal again? This would be fantastic deal for the Knicks. $70M to spend next season??!? that would give the Knicks $10M to spend THIS SUMMER.

also some draft chatter towards the second half of the article.


http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=84C6A57A1DC5775062FB.3115?site=newsday&view=sports_blogs_item&feed:a=newsday_5min&feed:c=sports_blogs&feed:i=1.2975790&nopaging=1

The best result of NBA Draft week for the Knicks has already happened. It came Tuesday afternoon in a conference room at the Omni Berkshire Hotel, when David Stern revealed the league has presented a new system to the players union that would involve flex-cap system tied to a promise of at least $2 billion in collective player income.

The formula for this system would include a mid-range payroll target of $62 million per team, with the ability to go above that number, to a negotiated cap, if a team so desired. (For instance, in the NHL, there is a negotiated $16M range, which allows teams to go $8 million below the mid-point or $8 million above it. If the NBA had the same range, the actual cap would be $70 million).

NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver made it a point to insist that all of the owners were on board with the league's collective bargaining decisions and that the latest system proposal had unanimous support. You can bet it was well-received in Miami and New York, where the "Superfriends" strategy wouldn't have survived under the previous efforts by the NBA to install a $45M NFL-style hard cap system.

Perhaps it's really a moot point, since no one believed the players union would have accepted that kind of a deal anyway. But, still, this system would permit the Knicks (at $60M already for next season) to make a few additions via free agency to improve the roster. That's huge news for the Knicks, who have so many holes to fill (and also want to be sure they have enough cap room in 2012 to target Chris Paul or Deron Williams).

The union came out of the meeting saying the system is still a hard cap system, which, to them, has been the taboo word in these negotiations. But it seems clear that this is the foundation that both sides will need to work from to make a deal.

And if you're Chris Paul, who has been in New York and in attendance at these meetings, there has to be some relief that the league came off the hard cap that would have made it extremely difficult for him to have options in '12.

* * *

Now, for some draft-related chatter:

* - Though Jimmer Fredette has now officially played the Stephen Curry role and declared his desire to be a Knick -- perhaps hoping to make teams who aren't completely committed to him decide to pass -- there is a great deal of pessimism within the Knicks organization that they can get him. The Knicks, according to multiple sources, have him very high on their board, but attempts to move up have proven to be too costy. Bottom line is, it doesn't look like they're willing to give up important assets like Landry Fields and Toney Douglas for him. So if Jimmer wants to be a Knick, he's going to have to fall all the way to No. 17, which doesn't sound likely.

* - Add Alec Burks to the list of possible targets for the Knicks. The 6-6 shooting guard from Colorado (Chauncey Billups' alma mater) was once thought to be a top 10 pick, but has slipped dramatically during the course of the predraft process. Why? One reason is a shoulder injury that has limited his ability to show all of his skills. Here's the thing, while Burks has shown a great ability to get to the rim and finish, he's not a very strong three-point shooter. Burks still wants to give the Knicks a chance to see him and consider him at No. 17, so they'll likely have him in for a look before tomorrow night's draft.

* - Another player the Knicks are keeping an eye on for a possible draft night tumble is Jan Vesley, the Czech-born forward who has been promoted as a top 10 pick throughout the draft process. Vesley is believed to be a main target of the Washington Wizards, but in this draft, a lot is going to be based on how the selections set up. It's a longshot that the multi-skilled Vesley will fall as far as 17, however.

* - Yesterday we wrote about the bust-potential that surrounds Bismack Biyombo, but then we talked to a few more people who have seen him play and the opinion is much different. One person I spoke with from an NBA team likened him to Serge Ibaka and was blown away by his energy level and explosiveness. His poor showing in the European workout had a lot to do with the fact that it involved him participating in shooting drills and post-up moves, which just isn't his strength.

Biyombo is a lot like Kenneth Faried when it comes to workouts: what you really need to do is have bad shooters take shots and see how he gets to the rebounds. Have taller players post him up and see how he can defend them.

How would he fit next to Amar'e Stoudemire? And could he defend centers? Biyombo has the strength (245 lbs.) to handle most NBA bigs on the low post and despite his 6-9 height, he does have a 9-3 standing reach and a 7-6 wingspan. As they say, you don't play with the top of your head, so the reach is what really matters.

That last part, of course, is a good argument as to why the Knicks will likely pass on Faried, despite what we attempted to suggest in yesterday's Fix. The point is, Amar'e can not be expected to play center anymore.

Biyombo is expected to come to the MSG Training Center on Thursday for a workout, but the Knicks already know him well. Will he fall to No. 17? That doesn't seem likely. In fact, I'm told if the Pistons pass on him at No. 8, he won't go beyond the Houston Rockets at 14.

* - Iman Shumpert is getting a lot of ink lately. We said yesterday that he injured his hip in the Knicks' workout when, technically, it was at his workout in New Jersey, which the Knicks attended (it's nice how the two franchises can get along without billboards and sabotage tactics). The hip hasn't been a major issue (just a hip flexor strain). There was a report that the Knicks tried to get Shumpert to stop working out for teams, but a person close to the player told me that wasn't accurate. The Knicks like Shumpert for his versatility on defense (he can guard both backcourt positions), but he doesn't have the kind of offensive game or shooting range they need to space the floor. He, too, may not be there at 17, with interest from teams such as the Suns and Rockets.

* - Trade rumors exploding at this point (as we told you yesterday, teams are looking to sell while there is still a system that allows such movement). The Suns are said to be getting offers for Steve Nash and there was a suggestion that the Knicks would move Chauncey Billups for Nash in a swap of veteran point guards. A very interesting scenario, but nothing that has gone beyond hypothetical. Yet.

The Timberwolves are also rumored to have discussed a scenario that would send Nash to Minnesota for the No. 2 pick. Really, T-Wolves GM David Kahn, the former basketball writer, has this year's draft buzzing. The Wolves are looking at everything. It is expected to be an extremely busy night for Jerry Zgoda, the Timberwolves beat writer for the Star Tribune.

Meanwhile, there are hints that the Spurs are shopping Tony Parker. Immediately Knicks fans want to know how to get him to New York. Acquiring Parker, who signed an a four year, $50M extension last fall, would mean the end of targeting Paul or Williams. But while a Billups-for-Parker swap would work financially, it sounds like the Spurs are looking to get a high pick, not just dump Parker's salary.

By the way, Parker is younger and fast and talented, but if you're so concerned about Billups breaking down with injuries, how much confidence can you have in Parker, who is often riddled with injuries?

* - Something we mentioned yesterday is worth reiterating here: moving back or moving out of this draft is definitely worth considering. If someone offered a 2012 pick to the Knicks for their pick at No. 17, it might be a better play, especially if the main targets are already off the table. Here's why: a 2012 first rounder has more value to you because the draft is expected to be deeper and it also gives you an extra asset to dangle when the time comes to make a package for another high-end player. That doesn't thrill fans who want immediate gratification, but it would be smart business.

Another plan could be to slip back a bit in the first round, especially if you can pick up an extra pick (perhaps in the early second round). Again, you don't just make a pick to make a pick. If the players you were targeting are not there at 17, it makes sense to slide back.

The Bulls have two late first rounders (28 and 30) and perhaps the Knicks would be interested in a swap to get two picks? Another team that the Knicks will likely talk with about picks is the Sacramento Kings, who have a valuable second round pick at No. 35 and another at 60.

* - Just a reminder that we'll host a predraft LIVE CHAT on Thursday morning at 11 a.m. We'll have the latest in rumors and draft buzz. And look for Newsday's 2011 NBA Draft mock, which will be posted Thursday morning.

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crzymdups
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6/22/2011  11:45 AM
also, if the players are concerned about a $70M hard cap??? how many teams actually ever go over $70M?

here's the payroll list from last season - only six teams were actually above $70M by more than a couple hundred thousand. And it's worth noting that teams like the Kings would have had to ADD $10M to get to the cap minimum of $54M in the new system. I don't know all the details, but this offer from the owners from a cap perspective, seems pretty fair.

1. Los Angeles Lakers
$91,645,878

2. Dallas Mavericks

$90,764,633
3. Orlando Magic
$89,139,596
4. Boston Celtics

$83,330,756
5. Utah Jazz

$74,109,205
6. Houston Rockets
$72,758,481
7. Atlanta Hawks
$70,927,923
8. Portland Trail Blazers
$70,523,987
9. Memphis Grizzlies

$70,008,317
10. Milwaukee Bucks
$69,757,069
11. San Antonio Spurs
$69,704,628
12. Philadelphia 76ers
$69,585,609
13. Toronto Raptors
$69,504,845
14. New Orleans Hornets
$68,551,075
15. Golden State Warriors
$68,040,204
16. New York Knicks
$67,327,114
17. Miami Heat
$66,949,192
18. Charlotte Bobcats

$66,846,401
19. Detroit Pistons
$65,917,821
20. Denver Nuggets

$65,870,893
21. Phoenix Suns
$65,738,834
22. Indiana Pacers
$64,368,421
23. Washington Wizards
$59,694,942
24. New Jersey Nets
$59,508,407
25. Oklahoma City Thunder
$57,536,882
26. Chicago Bulls
$55,434,482
27. Cleveland Cavaliers
$53,772,145
28. Minnesota Timberwolves
$53,140,362
29. Los Angeles Clippers

$52,646,130
30. Sacramento Kings
$44,030,596

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm#ixzz1Q1J1oRpO

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Nalod
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6/22/2011  11:52 AM
Wouldn't all teams be able to go to $70 mil?

So its allure of NY that brings them in? And this works how many times?

I miss the days when our payroll with taxes was over 100mil!

I hope that cap figure can rise. $70 mil sounds good but in a few years Amare and Caremlo get raises up to 23mil a piece. Thats 46mil for two players. Ouch.

See here: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

AnubisADL
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6/22/2011  11:54 AM
I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

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MaTT4281
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6/22/2011  12:18 PM
After hearing the $70M figure actually proposed, I'm feeling a little more confident in this getting settled without a lockout.
Markji
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6/22/2011  12:30 PM
AnubisADL wrote:I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

Cuttting the maximum salary and maximum length of contracts would be great, IMO. Max salaries are now too high. Too much disparity between the top players contracts and the average, good player. It cripples the team if that max player gets hurt and can't play....or just doesn't play up to the level he is being paid. And it limits the "regular" players from making a descent salary as the team doesn't have the cap space to pay them.

Mid-level exception - cut to 3 years at $5 mil max. After all, it is an "exception". Keep the basic salary structure the same for the other players.

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AnubisADL
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6/22/2011  12:42 PM
Markji wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

Cuttting the maximum salary and maximum length of contracts would be great, IMO. Max salaries are now too high. Too much disparity between the top players contracts and the average, good player. It cripples the team if that max player gets hurt and can't play....or just doesn't play up to the level he is being paid. And it limits the "regular" players from making a descent salary as the team doesn't have the cap space to pay them.

Mid-level exception - cut to 3 years at $5 mil max. After all, it is an "exception". Keep the basic salary structure the same for the other players.

Lowering the max will just result in more super teams for large markets.

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Markji
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6/22/2011  12:46 PM
AnubisADL wrote:
Markji wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

Cuttting the maximum salary and maximum length of contracts would be great, IMO. Max salaries are now too high. Too much disparity between the top players contracts and the average, good player. It cripples the team if that max player gets hurt and can't play....or just doesn't play up to the level he is being paid. And it limits the "regular" players from making a descent salary as the team doesn't have the cap space to pay them.

Mid-level exception - cut to 3 years at $5 mil max. After all, it is an "exception". Keep the basic salary structure the same for the other players.

Lowering the max will just result in more super teams for large markets.

So do you think we should raise the max?

I think it is somewhat absurd that too many players will make $18 to $24 mil while other starters are getting $3 - $4 mil.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
eViL
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6/22/2011  1:48 PM
Markji wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

Cuttting the maximum salary and maximum length of contracts would be great, IMO. Max salaries are now too high. Too much disparity between the top players contracts and the average, good player. It cripples the team if that max player gets hurt and can't play....or just doesn't play up to the level he is being paid. And it limits the "regular" players from making a descent salary as the team doesn't have the cap space to pay them.

Mid-level exception - cut to 3 years at $5 mil max. After all, it is an "exception". Keep the basic salary structure the same for the other players.

the thing is, true max players are probably underpaid in terms of what they bring to their team. thanks to lebron, dan gilbert was cakin in cleveland for 7 years. the key is that there are only a few *true* max guys.

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crzymdups
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6/22/2011  1:57 PM
i think things like Gilbert Arenas having a cap crippling contract are really hurting the league. I think there should be a clause to get rid of underperforming contracts, or reduce them somehow. That players association will never agree to that though, so they'll have to make other concessions.

I don't know why the average player would vote to make things easier on the Arenas guys in the league while making it much much harder on themselves.

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Markji
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6/22/2011  2:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/22/2011  2:04 PM
crzymdups wrote:i think things like Gilbert Arenas having a cap crippling contract are really hurting the league. I think there should be a clause to get rid of underperforming contracts, or reduce them somehow. That players association will never agree to that though, so they'll have to make other concessions.

I don't know why the average player would vote to make things easier on the Arenas guys in the league while making it much much harder on themselves.

That's an excellent point. And it supports my proposal - lower the max salary of the top players and keep the "average" players' salaries where they presently are. That, along with Stern's latest proposal of the cap should provide a good structure to complete a deal and avoid a walkout.
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grillco
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6/22/2011  3:12 PM
Markji wrote:
crzymdups wrote:i think things like Gilbert Arenas having a cap crippling contract are really hurting the league. I think there should be a clause to get rid of underperforming contracts, or reduce them somehow. That players association will never agree to that though, so they'll have to make other concessions.

I don't know why the average player would vote to make things easier on the Arenas guys in the league while making it much much harder on themselves.

That's an excellent point. And it supports my proposal - lower the max salary of the top players and keep the "average" players' salaries where they presently are. That, along with Stern's latest proposal of the cap should provide a good structure to complete a deal and avoid a walkout.

Both of you make good points. I would throw in another way they could work on controlling the albatross-ous contracts for those "max" players. Once the contract numbers have been agreed upon the owners should be able to arrange the payments to accommodate the future. If it's five year deal, why not be able to pay them 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, instead of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or even 1, 3, 5, 4, 2. It allows for the reality of your great 29-31 year-olds that are peaking to get that max salary while building in the likelihood that their numbers will drop. A-Rods contract was structured this way. After getting $27M in '08 he went to $32M for a couple years and will be making a poultry $20M for his final two season when he's 73 and 74 respectively. Of course this allows for manipulation of the system to reverse tier a couple of stars to be able to get another max player to join them in say three years, but that would really just be an obvious point of fiscal responsibility by any given owner/GM.

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6/22/2011  3:52 PM
eViL wrote:
Markji wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think they are proposing scalling back contracts as well. Plus less guaranteed years for contracts. The owners also want to add more expenses to the calculations for salaries.

I feel they will meet somewhere in the middle.

Cuttting the maximum salary and maximum length of contracts would be great, IMO. Max salaries are now too high. Too much disparity between the top players contracts and the average, good player. It cripples the team if that max player gets hurt and can't play....or just doesn't play up to the level he is being paid. And it limits the "regular" players from making a descent salary as the team doesn't have the cap space to pay them.

Mid-level exception - cut to 3 years at $5 mil max. After all, it is an "exception". Keep the basic salary structure the same for the other players.

the thing is, true max players are probably underpaid in terms of what they bring to their team. thanks to lebron, dan gilbert was cakin in cleveland for 7 years. the key is that there are only a few *true* max guys.

This is exactly why you get rid of the max and let negotiations be run freely. The concept of a max deal underpays guys who are worth more than that. The max contract is just another concept to protect the bad GM's in the league.

Nalod
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6/22/2011  4:09 PM
I think if a player underperforms and teams wants to Waive them they can.

Player still gets his money and team can only needs to carry HALF of the amount toward the cap.

So if eddy was making 12 mil and exiled team has to pay him full 12 but only 6 counts toward cap.

Any amount he makes after that couts toward that number. So if a team pays him say, 2 mill for the season, knick carry a cap of 4 mil instead of the six.

Union is happy, player is happy, and team is happy. Nalod solves the problem.

Paladin55
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6/22/2011  6:32 PM
Hmmm... so does all this mean that we could have waited for Anthony to become a FA, kept our young team intact, and really been primed to compete against all comers next season, and also have the ability to make major deals during the draft, if Anthony and Dolan had shown patience?

Just a thought.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
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6/22/2011  7:10 PM
Paladin55 wrote:Hmmm... so does all this mean that we could have waited for Anthony to become a FA, kept our young team intact, and really been primed to compete against all comers next season, and also have the ability to make major deals during the draft, if Anthony and Dolan had shown patience?

Just a thought.

Randolph
Gallo
Mosgov
Felton
Chandler
Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors' 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors' 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.

What a heist job when we couldve paid NOTHING.

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6/22/2011  7:11 PM
Paladin55 wrote:Hmmm... so does all this mean that we could have waited for Anthony to become a FA, kept our young team intact, and really been primed to compete against all comers next season, and also have the ability to make major deals during the draft, if Anthony and Dolan had shown patience?

Just a thought.

Fear is a strong motivator. Not knowing what we know now, most feared the owners were gonna be totally inflexible and try to stick it to the players.

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6/22/2011  7:15 PM
Dolan was right to trade for Anthony because it makes the team better. Besides, does anybody believe that he was going to leave all that money on the table when he could have gone to Jersey for the max?
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6/22/2011  7:48 PM
Paladin55 wrote:Hmmm... so does all this mean that we could have waited for Anthony to become a FA, kept our young team intact, and really been primed to compete against all comers next season, and also have the ability to make major deals during the draft, if Anthony and Dolan had shown patience?

Just a thought.

This is whyit's a bad idea to judge a decision with the advantge of hindsight. Decisions are made with incomplete information so it needs to be juded with he same POV. It's actually a very hard thing to do, but at least we should be cognizant of the need for it. Decisions should NOT be judged by he results they produce as counterintuitive as that sounds.

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Paladin55
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6/22/2011  8:41 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:Hmmm... so does all this mean that we could have waited for Anthony to become a FA, kept our young team intact, and really been primed to compete against all comers next season, and also have the ability to make major deals during the draft, if Anthony and Dolan had shown patience?

Just a thought.

This is whyit's a bad idea to judge a decision with the advantge of hindsight. Decisions are made with incomplete information so it needs to be juded with he same POV. It's actually a very hard thing to do, but at least we should be cognizant of the need for it. Decisions should NOT be judged by he results they produce as counterintuitive as that sounds.

Not hindsight for me, since I was against the trade in the first place.

We scout players... why not do a little intelligence gathering about where the CBA was heading?

As nixluva said, fear is quite a motivator, but fear born of ignorance is unacceptable. This goes for fans, Dolan, and Anthony.

Think of all the patching up of our roster and rotation Walsh has to do because of the trade. We are not dealing from a position of strength at this point, given the holes and weak points of our present team.

We could have traded Randolph for a #1 and kept that pick (and all the others we gave away), kept the guys Denver took from us, and really been in a position of power coming up to this draft, while waiting patiently for Anthony to sign with us during free agency.

Instead, we're scrambling around, hoping that we can catch fire with our 17th pick, looking about for table-scraps after giving away an entire feast.

So it goes.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Hahn: Owners proposal on Tuesday proposed a cap range - mid point is $62M - high end is $70M hard cap

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