Losing sucks. Knicks losses affect my mood and, depending on the degree of disgracefulness, my sleep habits. So allow me to work through the Knick issues one bullet at a time:

The Trade
I was and am for the trade. I understand why people say we gave up too much, but which player would have kept the trade "just right." Mozgov? He was a great character and had a handful of serviceable games for us and one great one, but let's not romanticize him. Gallo is a solid wing player, but obviously Denver craved him above everyone so he wasn't sticking around. Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway. I miss Felton the most, especially in light of the way Billups has been playing, though Felton was hitting a wall in the half of the season. I still think you have to make this trade because of the unknown CBA and the 2012 free agent class offered no guarantees. Plus, you're leaning on Amare even more for that year and a half and the guy looks gassed as it is. By the timne 2012 rolls around he might be running up and down the court in an iron lung.

Melo
I like the guy. He's a legit star. If I lived in Fantasyland I'd choose to build my dream team around on Dwight Howard or Derrick Rose, sure, but Melo is more than a consolation prize. His offensive skills are impeccable, he's capable of solid D, can rebound and, as we saw last night, can be a dynamic playmaker. (The fact that he owns LeBron is helpful, too). We'd have been screwed in a big way without Melo last night (and remember, he's directly responsible for two wins for us, Memphis and Milwaukee). I'd like to see him be more of a vocal and emotional leader (helping STAT up from the charge and contesting that breakaway dunk would have been big, as JVG noted) and am hopeful those things will come. Maybe he implodes, but I don't think he will.

Billups
I understand the need for rebounds and toughness underneath but, to me, the biggest need is solid PG play. That's the key for an MDA offense. Billups has been way off as of late and we all know that TD isn't a floor general. I like Billups and his resume speaks for itself, but I'm not yet sold on his future here. We've got two scoring studs--we need someone to orchestrate the offense. Still, signing him might be in our best long-term interest, so we have room to upgrade significantly in 2012 when his contract comes off the books.

MDA
Again, I like the guy, but can understand the frustration with the defensive shortcomings. I tend to lean more to the "we don't have the personnel" approach (seriously, just look at our bench--it's terrifying), though the guy is obviously not known as a D guru. To his credit, he came to NYC knowing the kind of seasons he was in store for and his teams keep getting shuffled. I think he should be given a chance at least into next year as the roster solidifies. If circumstances are still brutal, then, yeah, it might be time to punt him.

So that's my novella. I just don't think we have the horses now, to be honest. We have a great PF who's fatigued, a great SF who hasn't figured out how to fit in the offense yet, a world-class PG who's playing worse than Chris Duhon for some reason, a rookie SG who may have hit the wall, a center made of peanut brittle, a solid, if sporadically infuriating backup combo guard and, let's be honest, a bunch of spare parts. We've seen glimpses of what this team is capable of, but right now: we're just not that good. And our pre-trade team, I would argue, was only slightly better than not that good, yet constituted with players we had emotional attachments to, which makes this current losing streak (and Denver's success) all the more stinging.

Then again, we wouldn't be Knicks fans if our souls didn't feel like urinal cakes.

Gymkata wrote:The Trade
I was and am for the trade. I understand why people say we gave up too much, but which player would have kept the trade "just right." Mozgov? He was a great character and had a handful of serviceable games for us and one great one, but let's not romanticize him. Gallo is a solid wing player, but obviously Denver craved him above everyone so he wasn't sticking around. Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway. I miss Felton the most, especially in light of the way Billups has been playing, though Felton was hitting a wall in the half of the season. I still think you have to make this trade because of the unknown CBA and the 2012 free agent class offered no guarantees. Plus, you're leaning on Amare even more for that year and a half and the guy looks gassed as it is. By the timne 2012 rolls around he might be running up and down the court in an iron lung.

Melo
I like the guy. He's a legit star. If I lived in Fantasyland I'd choose to build my dream team around on Dwight Howard or Derrick Rose, sure, but Melo is more than a consolation prize. His offensive skills are impeccable, he's capable of solid D, can rebound and, as we saw last night, can be a dynamic playmaker. (The fact that he owns LeBron is helpful, too). We'd have been screwed in a big way without Melo last night (and remember, he's directly responsible for two wins for us, Memphis and Milwaukee). I'd like to see him be more of a vocal and emotional leader (helping STAT up from the charge and contesting that breakaway dunk would have been big, as JVG noted) and am hopeful those things will come. Maybe he implodes, but I don't think he will.

Billups
I understand the need for rebounds and toughness underneath but, to me, the biggest need is solid PG play. That's the key for an MDA offense. Billups has been way off as of late and we all know that TD isn't a floor general. I like Billups and his resume speaks for itself, but I'm not yet sold on his future here. We've got two scoring studs--we need someone to orchestrate the offense. Still, signing him might be in our best long-term interest, so we have room to upgrade significantly in 2012 when his contract comes off the books.

agree on all these points

Gymkata wrote:The Trade
I was and am for the trade. I understand why people say we gave up too much, but which player would have kept the trade "just right." Mozgov? He was a great character and had a handful of serviceable games for us and one great one, but let's not romanticize him. Gallo is a solid wing player, but obviously Denver craved him above everyone so he wasn't sticking around. Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway. I miss Felton the most, especially in light of the way Billups has been playing, though Felton was hitting a wall in the half of the season. I still think you have to make this trade because of the unknown CBA and the 2012 free agent class offered no guarantees. Plus, you're leaning on Amare even more for that year and a half and the guy looks gassed as it is. By the timne 2012 rolls around he might be running up and down the court in an iron lung.

When a trade or negotiation goes down, both teams try as much as they can to get the most of what they can. What is "just right" as you say?

Stan Van Gundy thought it was funny that (perhaps) fans, media were concerned about adding Mozgov to a Melo trade, as if that were the tipping point; indeed, why would a first year, stoned-handed player like Moz be worth holding up a trade for an all-star like Melo? What if Denver asked us to include an addition 1st rounder in 2016? Surely that would be a low pick and the Knicks would be getting back Melo, so it should be OK? And what if the Knicks accepted and Denver proceeded to as for the 2018 1st round pick? Surely that would be OK too cause if you look at it individually, it's just a low first round pick, and certainly that could not topple an all-star like Melo?

SVG didn't understand that it is not about the last asset you give up but the totality of the package and the line that the Knicks' management should have drawn in the sand for themselves before the negotiation started and understood at what point it gets crossed.

For me it was Moz. Gallo, Chandler, AR, Felton, 2 second round picks should have been enough. Side note: Why the extra 2 second round picks? Those should be important to NY.

As another side note, I don't agree with the assessment that "Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway." What does that mean? In the scenario where NY signs Melo next year if/when he would have been a UFA, then yes, Wilson would probably not have signed next year to make caproom for Melo. But that does not mean that he would not have been extended in NY if he was not included in the Melo/Denver deal. Pretty sure he would have been retained.

martin wrote:

Gymkata wrote:The Trade
I was and am for the trade. I understand why people say we gave up too much, but which player would have kept the trade "just right." Mozgov? He was a great character and had a handful of serviceable games for us and one great one, but let's not romanticize him. Gallo is a solid wing player, but obviously Denver craved him above everyone so he wasn't sticking around. Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway. I miss Felton the most, especially in light of the way Billups has been playing, though Felton was hitting a wall in the half of the season. I still think you have to make this trade because of the unknown CBA and the 2012 free agent class offered no guarantees. Plus, you're leaning on Amare even more for that year and a half and the guy looks gassed as it is. By the timne 2012 rolls around he might be running up and down the court in an iron lung.

When a trade or negotiation goes down, both teams try as much as they can to get the most of what they can. What is "just right" as you say?

Stan Van Gundy thought it was funny that (perhaps) fans, media were concerned about adding Mozgov to a Melo trade, as if that were the tipping point; indeed, why would a first year, stoned-handed player like Moz be worth holding up a trade for an all-star like Melo? What if Denver asked us to include an addition 1st rounder in 2016? Surely that would be a low pick and the Knicks would be getting back Melo, so it should be OK? And what if the Knicks accepted and Denver proceeded to as for the 2018 1st round pick? Surely that would be OK too cause if you look at it individually, it's just a low first round pick, and certainly that could not topple an all-star like Melo?

SVG didn't understand that it is not about the last asset you give up but the totality of the package and the line that the Knicks' management should have drawn in the sand for themselves before the negotiation started and understood at what point it gets crossed.

For me it was Moz. Gallo, Chandler, AR, Felton, 2 second round picks should have been enough. Side note: Why the extra 2 second round picks? Those should be important to NY.

As another side note, I don't agree with the assessment that "Wil is the man, but we weren't signing him next year anyway." What does that mean? In the scenario where NY signs Melo next year if/when he would have been a UFA, then yes, Wilson would probably not have signed next year to make caproom for Melo. But that does not mean that he would not have been extended in NY if he was not included in the Melo/Denver deal. Pretty sure he would have been retained.

So if the trade doesn't happen, you think we extend Wil (probably at something in the realm of $10 million per?) Then doesn't that mean no Melo as a UFA next year, especially given the strong possiblity the CBA will lead to a stricter cap? Isn't that essentially a choice between Wil and Melo, or to be fair, Wil + roster fill-ins and Melo? Maybe that's a valid argument for keeping Wil, but it's not likely we would see both Wil and Melo in Knicks unis, right?

Since logic does not run at MSG I have no Idea what will happen with Donnie.

It would seem Donnie is on his way out but I think its on him if he wants to stay. Just a hunch. If Jimmy went around him on the trade and he was not down with it then he will walk and do so with honor and dignity. Which means we'll never know the truth. Donnie is first class.

I think for sure MDA gets to play out his contract and has to make good on the roster he will get unless there is another blockbuster trade mid year.

I could see MDA also leaving on his own if there is another attractive job. The guy can coach but I would say the circumstances behine his tenure here has been less than ideal.

Not to say he has done a flawless job by any standard but 127 players on his roster in three years (Sorry I can't reference that figure) is a challange and some of the players are not what you'd call "a delight to coach"!

Most things are usually boring so a big Walsh story is not gong to happen. He'll stay quietly or go the same.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Good value. More than two cents worth!

Since logic does not run at MSG I have no Idea what will happen with Donnie.

It would seem Donnie is on his way out but I think its on him if he wants to stay. Just a hunch. If Jimmy went around him on the trade and he was not down with it then he will walk and do so with honor and dignity. Which means we'll never know the truth. Donnie is first class.

I think for sure MDA gets to play out his contract and has to make good on the roster he will get unless there is another blockbuster trade mid year.

I could see MDA also leaving on his own if there is another attractive job. The guy can coach but I would say the circumstances behine his tenure here has been less than ideal.

Not to say he has done a flawless job by any standard but 127 players on his roster in three years (Sorry I can't reference that figure) is a challange and some of the players are not what you'd call "a delight to coach"!

Most things are usually boring so a big Walsh story is not gong to happen. He'll stay quietly or go the same.

Question: There may be legitimate reasons for Dolan to want Melo in NY ASAP re ticket pricing, marketing $, competition with Brooklyn opening which means eyeballs. So, Nalod, if you were GM and Dolan gave you those business reasons as to why he wanted the Melo deal done, would you understand them in the face of your basketball operations and be OK with it and proceed completely willingly? Or would you only act as a purist and dislike Dolan to the Nth degree? Or somewhere in between?

EDIT: followup. If Dolan said he would be completely hands off after the 2 stars were in place, how would that effect your decision to stay/go?

Martin, I get your Wil scenario now. Then a worthwhile question is: do you extend Wil anyway for possibly $10mil per with Melo in the fold--at the same position--when there are so many other needs? Hmmm. He'd give your second unit great pop, but the salary he would likely demand might be too much for a bench player (this is assuming that the starting frontline of the future is Melo/AR/Mythical-Center.

To your last question, I'm just going to have to cling to the naive hope that Walsh's class and pride outweight his revulsion towards Dolan and that he wants to see his grand experiment through. That's a tall order, I know, but we have to believe. The alternative is too terrifying to contemplate...

martin wrote:

Gymkata wrote:Martin, I get your Wil scenario now. Then a worthwhile question is: do you extend Wil anyway for possibly $10mil per with Melo in the fold--at the same position--when there are so many other needs? Hmmm. He'd give your second unit great pop, but the salary he would likely demand might be too much for a bench player (this is assuming that the starting frontline of the future is Melo/AR/Mythical-Center.

The assumption of Chandler at $10M is not mine. A guy like Odom is making $9M. Al Harrington just nabbed the MLE. Ray Allen extended at $10M per. Tyrus extended starting at $7M. Just throwing out players. David Lee started his extension at $10M (and he backed into an all-star appearance with a 20/12 statline). I would say $7M seem about right for Chandler.

He is a legit 3point maker, can guard SG/SF/PF off the bench, and can score a legitimate 17ppg at 30 minutes. Next to TD, Shawne, Turiaf, that's a solid 4 guys off the bench. GM would still need to find a legit C to start.

this is assuming that the starting frontline of the future is Melo/AR/Mythical-Center.

I don't get what you mean by the above.

Doh! I mean a starting lineup of Melo/AS/Center.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Good value. More than two cents worth!

Since logic does not run at MSG I have no Idea what will happen with Donnie.

It would seem Donnie is on his way out but I think its on him if he wants to stay. Just a hunch. If Jimmy went around him on the trade and he was not down with it then he will walk and do so with honor and dignity. Which means we'll never know the truth. Donnie is first class.

I think for sure MDA gets to play out his contract and has to make good on the roster he will get unless there is another blockbuster trade mid year.

I could see MDA also leaving on his own if there is another attractive job. The guy can coach but I would say the circumstances behine his tenure here has been less than ideal.

Not to say he has done a flawless job by any standard but 127 players on his roster in three years (Sorry I can't reference that figure) is a challange and some of the players are not what you'd call "a delight to coach"!

Most things are usually boring so a big Walsh story is not gong to happen. He'll stay quietly or go the same.

Question: There may be legitimate reasons for Dolan to want Melo in NY ASAP re ticket pricing, marketing $, competition with Brooklyn opening which means eyeballs. So, Nalod, if you were GM and Dolan gave you those business reasons as to why he wanted the Melo deal done, would you understand them in the face of your basketball operations and be OK with it and proceed completely willingly? Or would you only act as a purist and dislike Dolan to the Nth degree? Or somewhere in between?

EDIT: followup. If Dolan said he would be completely hands off after the 2 stars were in place, how would that effect your decision to stay/go?

GOD, I'm hoping that Dolan's MO at this point is we have our two all stars to sell tickets, etc.. now Donnie go build us a TEAM.

I can live with that.