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Good Howard Beck NYT article today...re: depth
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Moonangie
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3/23/2011  11:05 AM
from today's NY Times:

Questions of Depth Haunt Knicks
By HOWARD BECK

As the Knicks crashed and burned last week, fans got a crash course in Carmelo Studies, each defeat a tutorial on one star player’s worst potential traits.

After one loss, Carmelo Anthony blamed a lack of defensive strategy. The next day, he blamed an overabundance of defensive schemes.

In Indiana, Anthony upbraided Jared Jeffries for failing to get him the ball on a last-second play. In Detroit, he badgered Toney Douglas for failing to get him the ball in the second half. After his worst game of the season, he walked straight to the team bus, leaving others to explain the loss.

Anthony is probably not as petulant, moody or selfish as he projected. But the hand-wringing over his demeanor obscured the Knicks’ broader deficiencies — most of which stem from the trade that brought him here.

Their defense is worse. Their ball movement has suffered. And their roster is in shambles.

Obtaining Anthony cost the Knicks nearly all of their depth, a fact that was lost amid the euphoria over the trade, and the chaos that followed.

The Knicks are top-heavy, with Anthony, Amar’e Stoudemire and Chauncey Billups headlining an otherwise woeful roster. They lack a legitimate starting center. Their starting off-guard, Landry Fields, would be a reserve on most teams. Among the reserves, only Toney Douglas is a reliable producer. They have no 7-footers, no shot-blockers and no perimeter stoppers. The tallest Knick, Jeffries (6 feet 11 inches), is one of the N.B.A.’s least productive players. He has started 8 of the last 11 games.

“I just think they’re flawed,” said an Eastern Conference scout who has watched the Knicks several times since the trade.

The scout listed defense and ball movement as the Knicks’ greatest weaknesses. But the lack of talent was a close third.

“You have no depth,” he said. “You’ve got five good starters and a sixth man in Toney Douglas and who is the next guy? Jared Jeffries is your next-best player?”

Beyond the top six, the Knicks fall into two categories: specialists (who have one notable skill) and space-fillers (who have none). Shawne Williams, Roger Mason Jr. and Bill Walker are capable 3-point shooters who do little else. (And Williams is reliable only from the corners — meaning even his one dimension is one-dimensional.) Jeffries is a decent help defender who has a knack for drawing charges.

But consider their recent history: Jeffries was waived by the Houston Rockets, who barely used him. Williams spent the 2009-10 season out of the N.B.A. Until recently, Mason could not break the Knicks’ rotation. Walker has fallen out of the rotation entirely.

The rest of the Knicks are space-fillers — a category the scout bluntly called “Can’t Play.” That includes Shelden Williams, Renaldo Balkman, Anthony Carter, Andy Rautins and Derrick Brown.

The Knicks might have the worst bench of any playoff-bound team (assuming, of course, the Knicks make the playoffs. They host Orlando on Wednesday, when a loss would drop them below .500).

An analysis provided by the NBA.com StatsCube illustrates the point. The Knicks’ most-used bench unit (at least three nonstarters), post-trade, has played only 23 minutes together: Douglas, Fields, Walker, Shawne Williams and Ronny Turiaf.

The Dallas Mavericks’ second unit, by contrast, has played 341 minutes together. The Chicago Bulls and Oklahoma City Thunder each have three unique bench units that have played at least 100 minutes together.

According to the StatsCube analysis, the Knicks’ various second units share a fairly consistent trait: better defense, worse offense. The Knicks were not fantastically deep before the trade — for the season, they rank 29th in bench minutes a game — but the rotation became thinner because they gave up four everyday players (Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgov) and gained only two (Anthony and Billups).

Gallinari and Chandler were dual threats, able to shoot the 3-pointer and drive to the basket. Defenders had to pay them much more respect than they do to, say, Mason or Shawne Williams, who have to be guarded only at the arc. Opponents ignore Jeffries entirely, leaving them free to double-team Stoudemire and Anthony.

Gallinari and Chandler were willing passers who complemented Stoudemire and kept the floor spread. Now, defenses are more prone to pack the paint. Anthony’s isolation plays make matters worse.

“Now the ball stops,” the scout said, because Anthony is primarily an isolation player who demands a lot of touches. “He’s not the perfect fit for the D’Antoni style in a lot of ways.”

Gallinari was an energetic defender and Chandler was the Knicks’ best post defender, a role that is now unfilled. The Knicks’ most efficient lineups this season featured Stoudemire at center and Chandler at power forward, according to 82games.com.

The Knicks could overcome it all if the chemistry between Stoudemire and Anthony were great (it’s not) or if Anthony were as willing a passer as Dwyane Wade or LeBron James (he isn’t).

The N.B.A.’s top teams are, of course, built on superstar foundations. But true contenders are armed with second-tier stars and capable role players. When the Knicks acquired Anthony, they filled one gap and created another — a fact that Donnie Walsh, the team president, acknowledged at the time.

Before the Knicks can rise above mediocrity, they will have to restock the lineup. Eventually, they will need to find the next Gallinari and Chandler.

Sheesh, I really miss Gallo, Chandler and Felton. I liked the team better before the trade. We should have waited for Melo as a FA and risked losing him. Ah well, water under the bridge. Guess it's back to waiting for new draftees. I hope we catch lightning in a bottle. Don't think we have any possibility for trades, other than moving Billups for CP3.

AUTOADVERT
NYKBocker
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3/23/2011  11:11 AM
The article is spot on.
TheGame
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3/23/2011  11:24 AM
Dolan is such a fool. I know Walsh was willing to call Denver's bluff, but Dolan, being the fool that he is, caved and gave up everything. We should still have Timmy M. on the is team and we should have kept Brewer. With Timmy M., Brewer, and Earl Barron on the beanch, this team is at least 3 games better in the win column.
Trust the Process
fishmike
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3/23/2011  11:25 AM
read it today... Beck does a really good job.

The old team was better. Its not even a debate at this point. The only arguement you can cling to is that somehow Walsh has plans to replace most of those pieces and the roster v2 will be better.

I see this as very hard to accomplish without cap space, only one middle round pick and a roster devoid of any attractive pieces.

We need a couple home runs in the draft, but even those can take a couple years. Chandler was a really good player.. but it took 3-4 years for him. Gallo took 2 years and his game is still evolving. Mosgov needed 4 months of practice and he was already a pro and 25 years old.

Veteran players cost MONEY, something the cap/CBA is going to make tough (MLE)

So where's the help coming from?

Our best bet is a package of guys with cap unfriendly contracts for expirings like Billups and Turiaf

Its going to be tough

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheGame
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3/23/2011  11:29 AM
fishmike wrote:read it today... Beck does a really good job.

The old team was better. Its not even a debate at this point. The only arguement you can cling to is that somehow Walsh has plans to replace most of those pieces and the roster v2 will be better.

I see this as very hard to accomplish without cap space, only one middle round pick and a roster devoid of any attractive pieces.

We need a couple home runs in the draft, but even those can take a couple years. Chandler was a really good player.. but it took 3-4 years for him. Gallo took 2 years and his game is still evolving. Mosgov needed 4 months of practice and he was already a pro and 25 years old.

Veteran players cost MONEY, something the cap/CBA is going to make tough (MLE)

So where's the help coming from?

Our best bet is a package of guys with cap unfriendly contracts for expirings like Billups and Turiaf

Its going to be tough

The new CBA will control our fate. If there is still a MLE, then we should be able to fill out the roster over the next 1-2 years to build a strong contender. If there is no MLE and the league goes to a hard cap, then this team is not going to get much better unless we get REALLY lucky in the draft or some guys decide to sign a below-market contract to play in New York.

Trust the Process
fishmike
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3/23/2011  12:28 PM
TheGame wrote:
fishmike wrote:read it today... Beck does a really good job.

The old team was better. Its not even a debate at this point. The only arguement you can cling to is that somehow Walsh has plans to replace most of those pieces and the roster v2 will be better.

I see this as very hard to accomplish without cap space, only one middle round pick and a roster devoid of any attractive pieces.

We need a couple home runs in the draft, but even those can take a couple years. Chandler was a really good player.. but it took 3-4 years for him. Gallo took 2 years and his game is still evolving. Mosgov needed 4 months of practice and he was already a pro and 25 years old.

Veteran players cost MONEY, something the cap/CBA is going to make tough (MLE)

So where's the help coming from?

Our best bet is a package of guys with cap unfriendly contracts for expirings like Billups and Turiaf

Its going to be tough

The new CBA will control our fate. If there is still a MLE, then we should be able to fill out the roster over the next 1-2 years to build a strong contender. If there is no MLE and the league goes to a hard cap, then this team is not going to get much better unless we get REALLY lucky in the draft or some guys decide to sign a below-market contract to play in New York.

a hard cap isnt happening here. Its going to be a similar CBA... maybe longer rookie deals, shorter veteran deals, some kind of performance clause... a caveat here or there... you get the idea. Something that makes the Gilbert type contract more managable, things that save owners from themselves... No way a hard cap passes.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
grillco
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3/23/2011  12:47 PM
NYKBocker wrote:The article is spot on.

But it's just full of a bunch of info any of us already knew, stuff that and Walsh are well aware of as well. I'm not surprised how things are going in NY at all for the time being. I am, however, surprised about how things are going in Denver ESPECIALLY with the players that they had no interest in as they lacked the skills and talent to help any organization, let alone Denver.

Moonangie
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3/23/2011  1:43 PM
fishmike wrote:read it today... Beck does a really good job.

The old team was better. Its not even a debate at this point. The only arguement you can cling to is that somehow Walsh has plans to replace most of those pieces and the roster v2 will be better.

I see this as very hard to accomplish without cap space, only one middle round pick and a roster devoid of any attractive pieces.

We need a couple home runs in the draft, but even those can take a couple years. Chandler was a really good player.. but it took 3-4 years for him. Gallo took 2 years and his game is still evolving. Mosgov needed 4 months of practice and he was already a pro and 25 years old.

Veteran players cost MONEY, something the cap/CBA is going to make tough (MLE)

So where's the help coming from?

Our best bet is a package of guys with cap unfriendly contracts for expirings like Billups and Turiaf

Its going to be tough

CP3 + OK4... we will be NO's trump card to dump Okie's bad paper.

tkf
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3/23/2011  1:47 PM
talk about hitting the nail on the head...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
GoNyGoNyGo
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3/23/2011  2:18 PM
NYKBocker wrote:The article is spot on.

Agreed. Melo is better than all of them individually and can make the big shot when needed. The thing he does not do is make the defensive play or great pass in the middle of the game when it may or may not decide the game.

The guys that went to Denver, play the game hard for 48 minutes.

Knicksfan
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3/23/2011  2:44 PM
The article hits one of the many problems we have, but while talking about the bench, I'd like to bring a few points.

First, when your bench is suspect but you've already passed the trading deadline, you have to try any possible combination that could help. In other words, you have to be open to playing any guy and see what they bring. I can't criticize D'Antoni much because he has tried almost everyone, but there are guys like Brown that could help if given more of a chance than garbage minutes. With the teal lacking energy and effort, a young guy hungry for time may help. He will make mistakes, but he could have more talent than the veterans you won't even play.

Second, when you have a chance to add a player after the deadline, select wisely. Jeffries is part of why out bench is bad, but Jeffries was brought here because D'Antoni liked him in his first time with us. Other than his nonexistent offensive game, he isn't the big man he was brought here to be. Granted, there aren't many options out there, but there have been NBDL additions by other teams that have helped their bench.

Third and related to the second, if you need a center, get a center. Barron was available before the day we signed Jeffries. Barron, as we know very well, is a 7-footer that has bounced a lot in the league and isn't a great player but he still could help a team in great need for defense and rebounding. If not him, why not give a chance to another center. The system is hard to learn? He would be here mainly to rebound and defend.

Finally, our bench is what it is for the rest of the season. Personally I would waive Sheldon and sign Barron to at least have a 7-footer that help us in defense and rebounding. Either way, we have to see if we can get more from this very bench. Its not the greatest, but maybe it can do a little bit more than it does now.

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GustavBahler
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3/23/2011  4:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/23/2011  4:25 PM
I keep hearing about ball movement and they definitely need to improve that but even when there is ball movement its not very good. I was watching the 94' playoffs Knicks/Bulls, what struck me about the Knicks ball movement back then was how much faster it was. They really put some mustard on those passes and they were very precise, you could tell that they worked on it.

This team hasn't been together very long so its understandable that they are still trying to sort things out. I'd like to see these Knicks become better passers or at least look like they are working on it which they haven't for the most part.

Good Howard Beck NYT article today...re: depth

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