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The Bottomline on 2011 NY Knicks
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Knicksfan
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3/19/2011  12:37 PM
We've had two different teams this season, and fans seem to be divided on which they like and which they don't. The first half of this season saw us start terribly, go on a historical run of success and then stay a .500 team. People went nuts for their inconsistency but found solace in their youth. After the trade, the Knicks formed the two-star tandem most teams want but gutted roster depth to do so. The result has been an inconsistent .500 team that drives fans nuts for it but some find solace in their star power.

In between, we have seen different play on both ends of the floor from the two teams. Both teams have had historical nights of hot shooting where they have been impossible to beat. That has only happened a handful times this season. Most games could be described as a coin toss battle were teams trade baskets until the first misses and the other wins. Those games haven't had much defense involved. In fact, both pre-trade and post-trade had their many difficulties playing defense and stopping teams when they had to. That has never changed.

Offensively, both teams have shown an affinity for three-point shooting, which constitutes a big part of their inconsistency on that end. With only a few three-point shooters, the pre-trade Knicks shot lots of threes, having trouble winning every time they didn't fall. The post-trade group has less three-point shooters, but they still shoot a high number of them and see their success most times be dictated by the amount they make. The new group has a bigger arsenal of offensive plays, especially with the addition of Melo, but they don't equate coach D'Antoni's system, so there is still a period of adjustment need to be made and it remains to be seen if the system will be fully revamped given the lineup or if it remains.

A major theme with NY is rebounding, as they have been outrebounded most of the season. Pre-trade Knicks had a few tall centers that helped the cause on some nights, but one of them saw little to none playing time (Randolph) and the other was banished after being declared starting C before the season, only to come back strong and gain value to be included in the trade (Mozgov). While some considered a no-brainier to include "Moz" in the trade, those fans who had followed NY close enough knew he was important to keep as he represented the best chance to have a balanced team with a more traditional lineup and a better chance at rebounding. Not that "Moz" alone would solve this problem, but he was starting to help the cause and his contributions were paying back.

The Post-trade Knicks don't have a seven footer. The closest is Jeffries, who is sometimes played out of position at center and is exposed for it. Either way, the coach is known for favoring small lineups for his system, even though those lineups prove to be hopeless against traditional and long lineups that see their front court players go for huge and sometimes career nights. It happened with the pre-trade Knicks and it happens with the post-trade Knicks.

If you see how both teams play and execute, you will be surprised at how similar both teams are, even if their rosters are so different. Their offensive play is pretty similar as you get heavy three point shooting. The pace is slower, but the results remain as both teams haven't had terrible problems scoring. Defense and rebounding have remained the issues as both teams couldn't stop anybody nor get the important rebound, especially in crunch time. Not much has changed. Why?

The answer lies between the coaching and part of the roster. Some suggest that some of our issues will be solved when we have a more traditional lineup and get the defensive and rebounding centers we need. Others claim that coach D'Antoni doesn't care about defense and will never have the discipline on defense and rebounding enough to be a championship contender. I think a good defensive strategy is important for a team defense no matter how good or bad are players on individual defense. But a big is extremely important to both aspects. The thing is, the coach has shown most of the times that he would rather play with a small lineup in his system than go traditional. Having preached defense or not, D'Antoni has mostly focused on offense and on his system, in which he has a hard time playing traditional centers. So while some preach patience with the coach, the truth is even them find it hard to believe that D'Antoni would play a traditional center and help the cause on D and rebounding.

So the system is responsible for some of our problems while the coach's lack of flexibility is responsible of the other one. Lately the Knicks have had problems with their consistency and their offense has become a little predictable. Yet D'Antoni has shortened the rotation, banishing everyone that came in the trade other than Melo and Billups. He hasn't even tried to integrate Brown, who could help both on O and in rebounding, yet we see signs of Randolph 2.0. Given our deficiencies, would it really hurt it give Sheldon Williams time at C or PF, especially when he could bring the defense that we've given up in losses like last night against the Pistons? You really think this system, with its lack of focus on defense, and this coach, with his stubbornness and disregard for the traditional center will really take the team where they hope to in the future, and that is contending for a championship?

We have changed the roster and seem to be moving in another direction. If we expect different results, then we have another element of our game to change.

Knicks_Fan
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AnubisADL
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3/19/2011  1:06 PM
The current team is imbalanced. Combined with the fact that we dont defend means we are a lower level playoff team.

Im confident we can get a overpaid big and overpaid backup PG this summer. Would love Thabum and Mayo or Varejao and Sessions at this point.

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BlueSeats
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3/19/2011  2:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2011  2:21 PM

Miami & Chicago got off to rocky starts then took the league by storm with defense. When we went 13-1 we led the league in blocks. Amare and Felton were playing over their heads on both ends of the court.

I'm not blaming the trade per se, because the descent started long before then (remember when the trade rumors were to blame) but we have to get back to that. We have to get to where that level of intensity doesn't seem so unfathomable.

I don't know if guys are fatigued, hurting, depressed, confused or what, but we need to regain that clarity of purpose and intensity. Leadership is required. It has to start with D'Antoni and then be embodied by the stars. The stars gotta make Fields, Douglas, Williams etc look good, and they in turn have to make the coach look smart.

Can't sleepwalk or mope their way through this. It's gotta start with intensity, and intensity starts on defense.

martin
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3/19/2011  2:32 PM
BlueSeats wrote:

Miami & Chicago got off to rocky starts then took the league by storm with defense. When we went 13-1 we led the league in blocks. Amare and Felton were playing over their heads on both ends of the court.

I'm not blaming the trade per se, because the descent started long before then (remember when the trade rumors were to blame) but we have to get back to that. We have to get to where that level of intensity doesn't seem so unfathomable.

I don't know if guys are fatigued, hurting, depressed, confused or what, but we need to regain that clarity of purpose and intensity. Leadership is required. It has to start with D'Antoni and then be embodied by the stars. The stars gotta make Fields, Douglas, Williams etc look good, and they in turn have to make the coach look smart.

Can't sleepwalk or mope their way through this. It's gotta start with intensity, and intensity starts on defense.

I'd like to know what you think of how Fields, TD, Williams have been performing since the trade. Strangely, IMHO, those guys have performed very well in the face of their team's star under-performing.

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fishmike
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3/19/2011  2:55 PM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:

Miami & Chicago got off to rocky starts then took the league by storm with defense. When we went 13-1 we led the league in blocks. Amare and Felton were playing over their heads on both ends of the court.

I'm not blaming the trade per se, because the descent started long before then (remember when the trade rumors were to blame) but we have to get back to that. We have to get to where that level of intensity doesn't seem so unfathomable.

I don't know if guys are fatigued, hurting, depressed, confused or what, but we need to regain that clarity of purpose and intensity. Leadership is required. It has to start with D'Antoni and then be embodied by the stars. The stars gotta make Fields, Douglas, Williams etc look good, and they in turn have to make the coach look smart.

Can't sleepwalk or mope their way through this. It's gotta start with intensity, and intensity starts on defense.

I'd like to know what you think of how Fields, TD, Williams have been performing since the trade. Strangely, IMHO, those guys have performed very well in the face of their team's star under-performing.

I think their role hasnt changed much... max energy. Douglas was set free by starting and has been playing 30 minutes since anyway. I think Williams is just a glad to be here never want to leave again blue collar guy. At 6'9 with a 7'4 wingspan, plays defense with gusto and hits the three and plays hard he's earning himself a nice spot. He's just got to stay out of trouble. He was a good prospect out of college
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BlueSeats
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3/19/2011  4:28 PM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:

Miami & Chicago got off to rocky starts then took the league by storm with defense. When we went 13-1 we led the league in blocks. Amare and Felton were playing over their heads on both ends of the court.

I'm not blaming the trade per se, because the descent started long before then (remember when the trade rumors were to blame) but we have to get back to that. We have to get to where that level of intensity doesn't seem so unfathomable.

I don't know if guys are fatigued, hurting, depressed, confused or what, but we need to regain that clarity of purpose and intensity. Leadership is required. It has to start with D'Antoni and then be embodied by the stars. The stars gotta make Fields, Douglas, Williams etc look good, and they in turn have to make the coach look smart.

Can't sleepwalk or mope their way through this. It's gotta start with intensity, and intensity starts on defense.

I'd like to know what you think of how Fields, TD, Williams have been performing since the trade. Strangely, IMHO, those guys have performed very well in the face of their team's star under-performing.

I think they've played fine relative to their stature. If I made it sound like I have issues with them specifically then I mispoke.

What I'm having a problem with is the lack of synchronicity and sustained intensity. I'm not liking the orchestration from either of Billups or Douglas - it's as if they're playing SSOL when they want to launch a shot, but otherwise we're playing a pretty medium tempo. Minimal P&Rs with either of Amare or Melo. Much less interior work from Amare. Billups doesn't see Fields, Douglas doesn't see Melo. I thought TD might be the guy to benefit most from exposure to Billups, yet CB has been every bit an equal chucker.

It seems we've slowed the pace of the offense for iso plays yet maintained SSOL on D. The opponents are the ones scoring in SSOL, largely on easy penetrations.

I don't know how to engage the offensive synchronicity and I think D' will figure it out. During that 13-1 run not only was our D stronger but it was also some of the purest ball movement I've seen from the Knicks since Holzman. But the defensive intensity has to come first, and I'm not seeing it from any of Amare, Melo or Billups. Even STATMVP seems to have lost his sense of purpose. (Unless, as you say it's his legs. But either way, it's not what it was, and we were only good when he and Felton played above themselves. Presently all our stars are playing beneath themselves.

tomam
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3/19/2011  6:23 PM
The main deficiency for the Knicks is the lack of a solid rebounder/defender inside. They can win 40-50 regular season games but come the playoffs they will get exposed by bigger teams with bigs that can score easily inside. However, add the right piece and the 2012 Knicks would be compelling and a championship contender. Whether you are able to develop and locate that on the cheap will show our options for 2013 and the planned championship run.

2011 year was one of retooling - certainly interesting to watch as players obtain defined roles...but imho, one which will end in the 1st or 2nd playoff round.

Knicksfan
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3/20/2011  6:32 PM
This team, surprisingly, is a huge mess from top to bottom. For a team with two stars, with a tough guy like Billups, with solid role players like Fields, Douglas, Shawne, Turiaf (where is he?) and even Jeffries sometimes, we play horrible team basketball. The trade wasn't made yesterday. We have already played 15 games (to a terrible 7-8 record) and we really show no improvement. Really, when can we rightfully say there is a problem and not give the excuse that this team is learning to play together. I can understand we won't be clicking on all cylinders, but there is no improvement. Its the same story each game.
Knicks_Fan
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3/20/2011  6:37 PM
Knicksfan wrote:We've had two different teams this season, and fans seem to be divided on which they like and which they don't. The first half of this season saw us start terribly, go on a historical run of success and then stay a .500 team. People went nuts for their inconsistency but found solace in their youth. After the trade, the Knicks formed the two-star tandem most teams want but gutted roster depth to do so. The result has been an inconsistent .500 team that drives fans nuts for it but some find solace in their star power.

In between, we have seen different play on both ends of the floor from the two teams. Both teams have had historical nights of hot shooting where they have been impossible to beat. That has only happened a handful times this season. Most games could be described as a coin toss battle were teams trade baskets until the first misses and the other wins. Those games haven't had much defense involved. In fact, both pre-trade and post-trade had their many difficulties playing defense and stopping teams when they had to. That has never changed.

Offensively, both teams have shown an affinity for three-point shooting, which constitutes a big part of their inconsistency on that end. With only a few three-point shooters, the pre-trade Knicks shot lots of threes, having trouble winning every time they didn't fall. The post-trade group has less three-point shooters, but they still shoot a high number of them and see their success most times be dictated by the amount they make. The new group has a bigger arsenal of offensive plays, especially with the addition of Melo, but they don't equate coach D'Antoni's system, so there is still a period of adjustment need to be made and it remains to be seen if the system will be fully revamped given the lineup or if it remains.

A major theme with NY is rebounding, as they have been outrebounded most of the season. Pre-trade Knicks had a few tall centers that helped the cause on some nights, but one of them saw little to none playing time (Randolph) and the other was banished after being declared starting C before the season, only to come back strong and gain value to be included in the trade (Mozgov). While some considered a no-brainier to include "Moz" in the trade, those fans who had followed NY close enough knew he was important to keep as he represented the best chance to have a balanced team with a more traditional lineup and a better chance at rebounding. Not that "Moz" alone would solve this problem, but he was starting to help the cause and his contributions were paying back.

The Post-trade Knicks don't have a seven footer. The closest is Jeffries, who is sometimes played out of position at center and is exposed for it. Either way, the coach is known for favoring small lineups for his system, even though those lineups prove to be hopeless against traditional and long lineups that see their front court players go for huge and sometimes career nights. It happened with the pre-trade Knicks and it happens with the post-trade Knicks.

If you see how both teams play and execute, you will be surprised at how similar both teams are, even if their rosters are so different. Their offensive play is pretty similar as you get heavy three point shooting. The pace is slower, but the results remain as both teams haven't had terrible problems scoring. Defense and rebounding have remained the issues as both teams couldn't stop anybody nor get the important rebound, especially in crunch time. Not much has changed. Why?

The answer lies between the coaching and part of the roster. Some suggest that some of our issues will be solved when we have a more traditional lineup and get the defensive and rebounding centers we need. Others claim that coach D'Antoni doesn't care about defense and will never have the discipline on defense and rebounding enough to be a championship contender. I think a good defensive strategy is important for a team defense no matter how good or bad are players on individual defense. But a big is extremely important to both aspects. The thing is, the coach has shown most of the times that he would rather play with a small lineup in his system than go traditional. Having preached defense or not, D'Antoni has mostly focused on offense and on his system, in which he has a hard time playing traditional centers. So while some preach patience with the coach, the truth is even them find it hard to believe that D'Antoni would play a traditional center and help the cause on D and rebounding.

So the system is responsible for some of our problems while the coach's lack of flexibility is responsible of the other one. Lately the Knicks have had problems with their consistency and their offense has become a little predictable. Yet D'Antoni has shortened the rotation, banishing everyone that came in the trade other than Melo and Billups. He hasn't even tried to integrate Brown, who could help both on O and in rebounding, yet we see signs of Randolph 2.0. Given our deficiencies, would it really hurt it give Sheldon Williams time at C or PF, especially when he could bring the defense that we've given up in losses like last night against the Pistons? You really think this system, with its lack of focus on defense, and this coach, with his stubbornness and disregard for the traditional center will really take the team where they hope to in the future, and that is contending for a championship?

We have changed the roster and seem to be moving in another direction. If we expect different results, then we have another element of our game to change.

Terrific post and good summary. I like the juxtaposition of the before-&-after teams. Nice job.

TMS
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3/20/2011  7:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2011  7:33 PM
there's really been no change in the lack of focus & intensity this team has suffered from in games vs lesser competition this season pre or post trade... the lack of talent excuse can no longer be applied to this team we should be beating teams like the Pacers, Bucks & Cavs... not even sure how much adding a big C would do for this team we were 10W-12L in games that Timo played double digit minutes, there are bigger issues that need to be addressed than just the players on this team.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
tj23
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3/20/2011  7:47 PM
This team doesn't move the ball well, they dont get many easy baskets, and they dont rebound or defend. I still think an offseason with this team is easily better than our previous team. Still, any good coach with this talent gets more wins. Mike D needs to gtfo.
WOODMANnYk
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3/20/2011  8:50 PM
For some reason, I think Walsh and Dantoni or just dantoni will not be back next season. Knicks will have someone internally take over and hire a more proven coach. They will make more changes with the roster stressing size, defense and reliable depth.

If Dantoni does remain for the next season, it surely will be his last since his contract will be up! This is a similair situation with phoenix when new GM Steve Kerr requested dantoni to hire a defensive specialist as an asst but he refuse and was let go.

If the knicks will ever get close to a championship, dantoni is not the right guy for the job

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The Bottomline on 2011 NY Knicks

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