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The reason why people have a problem with Mike D'Antoni has nothing to do with his inability to coach
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TMS
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3/13/2011  5:55 PM
I just thought I'd share this thread from another forum with some of you who feel that any negative criticism thrown at MDA is a sign that you hate the man or think he's a horrible coach... that's not the case for many of us, we make these criticisms out of legitimate concerns over how other teams have fared over the course of recent history that haven't ranked in the top 10 defensively... we now have the 2 offensive studs to anchor the offense, the initial stage of Donnie's rebuild putting the star core together is now in place... we should now be focusing on getting this team to take the next step & become a more balanced roster that can play top 10 level defense... otherwise it's a stretch think they'll ever have any realistic shot at winning a championship... some scoff at the old cliche that "Defense wins championships" but it's a cliche for a reason... if our main goal is to win a championship someday then these facts cannot be overlooked:

I think some people on here think I and others are hating on D'Antoni because we just like to.

I am posting this thread not to debate about it more, but to show that our concerns on his defensive ratings and his lack of attention to it are almost certainly going to cost us a championship.

Please find below the offensive and defensive ratings for the championship teams for the past 15 years. You will find only one occasion where the defensive rating was outside the top ten during the regular seasons (That team's defensive rating (Lakers) was top ten during the playoffs).

Let us be clear about this.

Defensively:

* Only 1 out of the last 15 teams who won a championship had a defensive rating outside the top 10 (6%)
* 14 out of the 15 teams were rated a top 10 defensive team (93%)
* 11 out of the 15 teams were top 5 in defensive ratings (73%)
* 13 out of the 15 teams were top 7 in defensive ratings (87%)
* 5 out of the 15 teams were number 1 in the league in defensive rating (33%)

Combined

* 11 out of the 15 teams were BOTH top ten in offense and defense.
* 3 of the 4 who were not top ten in both offense and defense, were a top ten defensive team.

Moral of the story is that only one team in the last 15 years was not in top 10 in defense. ONE. Of course that was the 2001 Lakers (never show up during the regular season). I checked their defensive ratings in the regular season compared to the playoffs. They raised their defensive rating to top of the league during the playoffs (only lost one game during the entire playoffs).

Stats:


2010:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 108.8 (11th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.7 (4th of 30)

2009:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 112.8 (3rd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.7 (6th of 30)

2008:
Celtics: Off Rtg: 110.2 (10th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.9 (1st of 30)

2007:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 109.2 (5th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.9 (2nd of 30)

2006:
Heat: Off Rtg: 108.7 (7th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.5 (9th of 30)

2005:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 107.5 (8th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.8 (1st of 30)

2004:
Pistons: Off Rtg: 102.0 (18th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

2003:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 105.6 (7th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.7 (3rd of 29)

2002:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 109.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.7 (7th of 29)

2001:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 108.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.8 (21st of 29)

2000:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 107.3 (5th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.2 (1st of 29)

1999:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 95.0 (1st of 29)

1998:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 107.7 (9th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.8 (3rd of 29)

1997:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 114.4 (1st of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 102.4 (4th of 29)

1996:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 115.2 (1st of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.8 (1st of 29)

As you can see from the post above, only 1 out of the previous 15 championship teams have not been a top 10 defensively ranked squad, the '01 Lakers, & that team was able to crank up their defense in the playoffs when it mattered most... for the Knicks to take the next step towards becoming a legitimate title contender, we need to have our role players be able to play the type of defense that can add the necessary balance to the elite offense this team now has... we have the stud bigman, the stud wingman, & the stud PG who will provide the offensive punch & close-out ability in big games now, & I honestly believe we already have the role players necessary to play the roles that guys like Horace Grant, Ron Harper, Robert Horry & Brian Shaw played for that Lakers team... the only remaining question for me is will this coach ever be able to get them to play the elite level team defense when it matters in the postseason? the fact that MDA's teams have never ranked in the top 10 of the league in team defense has to be worrysome regardless if you're a fan of his or not.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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MSG3
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3/13/2011  7:53 PM
If you want to know the reason that people have a problem with Mike Dantoni just tune to Knicks v Pacers. No adjustments, no timeouts, no getting into guys for absolutely no effort. I really hope we get a new coach. This guy is a x's and o's guy, not an in game coach.
matt
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3/13/2011  8:41 PM
He justs gets outcoached almost every game. He never takes a momentum breaking time out, or matches up to the other team. He says he preaches defense, but it's just a bunch of switching and hoping that the other team misses. They gotta find a replacement after this season
MSG3
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3/13/2011  8:51 PM
matt wrote:He justs gets outcoached almost every game. He never takes a momentum breaking time out, or matches up to the other team. He says he preaches defense, but it's just a bunch of switching and hoping that the other team misses. They gotta find a replacement after this season

+1
TMS
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3/13/2011  8:53 PM
matt wrote:He justs gets outcoached almost every game. He never takes a momentum breaking time out, or matches up to the other team. He says he preaches defense, but it's just a bunch of switching and hoping that the other team misses. They gotta find a replacement after this season

i thought he could have done a better job of sitting certain guys when they started struggling I don't know why Toney Douglas was still in the game after going 1 for 12 from the field & AC didn't see any run at all... i also saw Melo & STAT playing very selfishly & no one else was getting involved at that point I would have assumed he'd take a timeout & get these guys back on the same page... these types of moves, or lack thereof, is what frustrates me about this coach at times, but i do believe him to be a very good offensive coach for the most part... the main concern i have with this coach is with his ability to motivate these players to put forth the type of defensive effort they're capable of... there are plenty of defensive minded players on this team that they shouldn't be getting embarassed by a team like the Pacers on their home floor after that pathetic loss vs. the Mavs one would have expected them to come out angry & motivated to put a hurtin' on the Pacers tonight but that obviously didn't happen.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nykshaknbake
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3/13/2011  8:56 PM
I think part of the problem is that he really just coaches from his own bubble. If the players are fired up they will play hard. But he'll never motivate anyone to do anything they won't do without a coach. He'll never get on the team for playing no D like a Pop or VG would. If the team morale is bad, he'll never be able to provide the intangibles that a good coach does. He thinnks his job is draw up some XOs and if it doesn't go it doesn't go. He did his part. They players will never revolt because he doesn't make them uncomfortable with medicority, but they won't raise their level consistently either. His lack of in game adjustmetns is also very puzling too.
MSG3
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3/13/2011  8:57 PM
Dallas is a great example attitude wise of what we should aspire to. When they came of a bad loss they made sure they came out and punished us for it. We need to cultivate a sense of pride. Coach and stars have to be responsible for that.
BRIGGS
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3/13/2011  9:00 PM
Its not MDA, we made the team worse for the time being. Sure we'll have our nights--but this is a project FAR FAR away from completion. Its not one move that will help us, its several.
We can be blinded by 60% shooting but getting beat at home by Indiana and the cavs is reason for concern.

If we played Denver in a 7 game series they would wipe the floor with us.

RIP Crushalot😞
Childs2Dudley
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3/13/2011  9:00 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Its not MDA, we made the team worse for the time being. Sure we'll have our nights--but this is a project FAR FAR away from completion. Its not one move that will help us, its several.
We can be blinded by 60% shooting but getting beat at home by Indiana and the cavs is reason for concern.

If we played Denver in a 7 game series they would wipe the floor with us.

It is the MDA because this has been going on with him with 3 different rosters.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
BRIGGS
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3/13/2011  9:04 PM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Its not MDA, we made the team worse for the time being. Sure we'll have our nights--but this is a project FAR FAR away from completion. Its not one move that will help us, its several.
We can be blinded by 60% shooting but getting beat at home by Indiana and the cavs is reason for concern.

If we played Denver in a 7 game series they would wipe the floor with us.

It is the MDA because this has been going on with him with 3 different rosters.

I believe we played well twice--with zach et al at start of season and with our team which was going in the right direction.

This team fell doom to the greed of Dolan. he wants ticketholders to pay for a new garden so he rushed this Melo thing at any cost. Well the cost is high and I feel bad for people paying more--one thing I know I was once a loyal ticketholder even if I couldnt go to many games---never if Dolan owns it.

RIP Crushalot😞
Childs2Dudley
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3/13/2011  9:05 PM
Hopefully Scott Skiles becomes available. With this offensive talent and his defensive philosophy we can be a very good team.
"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
MSG3
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3/13/2011  9:08 PM
Yea it doesn't take gel time to make a team play with effort. If they lost by the same score to IND tonight but showed effort it would be one thing. But the coach didn't demand anything out of them. Denver would wipe the floor with us now but it's not because they are more talented. It's because they have one of the best coaches in the league and talented guys who buy in to what he sells. MDA doesn't demand anything out of his guys. The only guy I ever see him getting on is TD.
TMS
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3/13/2011  9:14 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Its not MDA, we made the team worse for the time being. Sure we'll have our nights--but this is a project FAR FAR away from completion. Its not one move that will help us, its several.
We can be blinded by 60% shooting but getting beat at home by Indiana and the cavs is reason for concern.

If we played Denver in a 7 game series they would wipe the floor with us.

i don't believe we made this team worse for a second, Melo adds a 2nd superstar to this roster that in itself raises the level of talent on this team by several levels, not to mention Chauncey right there you have probably 2 of the top 5 money shot makers in the NBA... tell me how that won't be important come playoff time... u telling me you think having Felton, Wilson or Gallo with the ball in crunchtime during a high pressure game situation would have been preferable to Melo or Big Shot Billups?

we have enough role players on this squad to be a good defensive team & all the offensive firepower we'll ever need, now the only question is does this coach have it in him to get these guys to play top 10 calibre team defense so we can be a serious championship contender? i'm sorry but guys like Felton, Wilson, Gallo & Timo wouldn't have this team playing better over Melo, Chauncey, AC & Shelden in a playoff series... if u honestly believe that nothing anyone says will change your mind so hold to your own beliefs that Denver would wipe the floor with us, the fact remains they still pretty much have their entire core still intact for the most part they only lost 2 players that even had a role in their rotation whereas the Knicks pretty much have a completely overhauled rotation they're trying to work 5 new guys in the rotation compared to the opening day lineup... it's gonna take time for that to gel but in the meantime you'd like to see a better defensive effort being put forth on the floor against non-elite teams... this Knicks squad has for the most part played well against top level competition since the Melo trade with the exception of that stinker vs. the Mavs.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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3/13/2011  9:23 PM
MSG3 wrote:MDA doesn't demand anything out of his guys. The only guy I ever see him getting on is TD.

I think there's some validity to this, i've never seen him get on the veterans too much for their mistakes on the floor, he usually only gets on the young guys... he gives the veterans a lot more leeway (unless their names happen to be Al Harrington)... there is some merit to this course of action obviously as a coach you don't want to lose your veterans in the lockerroom as soon as that happens you lose the team as the Detroit Pistons have discovered this year... the good thing is Toney has a thick skin & is very coachable so getting yelled at doesn't seem to phase him too much.

you can contrast this with a coach like Greg Popovich, he will get on the case of anyone even his star player Tim Duncan if he's underperforming, he plays no favorites from what i've seen... this probably earns him respect from everyone in the lockerroom because they know if he's upset about something it's for good reason & not just to make someone out to be an example just because he's a young guy that won't talk back.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
AnubisADL
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3/13/2011  9:54 PM
D'Antoni is going to get himself fired so I dont stress it. Rick Adelman might potentially be a free agent this summer too.

If we get killed in the playoff dude to lack of Defense he wot be here. Simple as that.

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Childs2Dudley
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3/13/2011  9:57 PM
AnubisADL wrote:D'Antoni is going to get himself fired so I dont stress it. Rick Adelman might potentially be a free agent this summer too.

If we get killed in the playoff dude to lack of Defense he wot be here. Simple as that.

Don't ever doubt James Dolan.

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CrushAlot
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3/13/2011  10:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/13/2011  10:05 PM
AnubisADL wrote:D'Antoni is going to get himself fired so I dont stress it. Rick Adelman might potentially be a free agent this summer too.

If we get killed in the playoff dude to lack of Defense he wot be here. Simple as that.

I think if Walsh is retained D'Antoni will stay. Walsh is incredibly loyal and so is Dolan. Dolan had a very hard time firing Scott Layden and had to almost be forced to move on from Isiah. I think D'Antoni continues to be given the benefit of the doubt despite the fact that I think he needed to go after how he handled the team last year.
The flurry of coaches that passed through NY before Walsh was because Isiah appeared to have no problem treating guys badly or firing them.
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mreinman
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3/13/2011  10:23 PM
The way MDA coaches, if the knicks are hitting from 3, they win. If not, they lose! That is not a recipe for success. The knicks don't play good enough D to makeup for a bad shooting night. The old knicks can shoot crappy but make it up with their defense.

(MDA) It's the PHILOSOPHY stupid!

Jerry Sloan anyone?

Maybe even Phil Jax. This is the perfect situation for him. Superstars already exist and I am sure he would love to save HIS knicks franchise. His ego wont let him not do it.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
loweyecue
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3/13/2011  10:50 PM
Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
CrushAlot
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3/13/2011  10:54 PM
loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a championship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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The reason why people have a problem with Mike D'Antoni has nothing to do with his inability to coach
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