....and whether STAT and Melo is a championship nucleous. A lot of points they make in here echo a lot of things posters on both sides of the fence were saying prior to the trade. Great read I think:
Question: Are Amare Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony good enough for the New York Knicks to build around?
BROUSSARD: While we all can agree that Magic Johnson got ahead of himself with his "New York Knicks title" tweet, I do believe that Amare Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony can be the nucleus of a championship team. If the Knicks build around them correctly, they could definitely lead New York to a title.
BUCHER: For the sake of Knicks fans and Amare and Melo, I wish I could be as optimistic. But there are two principles that apply to every championship team I've seen: One, its top two players can dominate the game at both ends of the floor. Two, it has had, at most, one subpar defender in its finishing lineup. With that in mind, I don't see how the Knicks construct a team around Amare and Melo that meets those criteria.
CB: Amare and Melo don't have to remain subpar defenders. That's the thing. They have the strength and athleticism to be good defenders. As they get older and their legacies and stature become more and more tied to winning, they'll buckle down defensively, because they'll know that's what it takes to win. The same thing happened to Paul Pierce. Pierce was long regarded as a poor defender who only cared about getting his numbers. But when Kevin Garnett arrived and winning it all became his top priority, Pierce became a solid defender. Same thing with Ray Allen, who was never thought of as a decent defender until he got to Boston. The missing link for Amare and Melo on the defensive end is a coach who emphasizes it and holds them accountable.
And as for your top-two-player theory -- when did Pierce begin dominating defensively? Unless you consider Rajon Rondo to have been Boston's second-best player (behind KG) back in 2008, the Celtics blow your theory to bits. As do the 2006 Miami Heat, as Dwyane Wade was far from a lockdown defender back then. Also, are you familiar with the Showtime Lakers? Am I the only one who thinks Magic didn't dominate the defensive side of the ball? How about Tony Parker, Finals MVP in 2007? I don't remember him terrorizing anyone on D.
RB: I hate to waste time and space on a history lesson, but I'll make it quick: Paul Pierce's defense on LeBron James and Kobe Bryant were linchpins to the Celtics' lone championship with the Big Three. He was as impactful on defense as he was on offense; for all the talk about Magic being a marginal one-on-one defender, he was a fantastic team defender, and his size and length caused fits for opposing teams because he could guard multiple positions (his rebounding alone allowed him to dominate his position on D); Tony Parker wasn't, and has never been, one of the Spurs' best two players, regardless of what seven voters implied in a lopsided four-game sweep that had him matched against an injured Larry Hughes and a second-round pick rookie (Boobie Gibson).
I would agree that Melo has the physical capability to impact the game defensively as much as he does offensively, but you talk as if Amare is some spry young buck in his mid-20s instead of a 28-year-old with nine seasons and microfracture knee surgery under his belt. He already needs heat pads to stay loose now, and he clearly doesn't have the same explosiveness or lateral mobility he once had. Microfracture has to be re-done every four to six years, which makes him about due for another one.
I admire like hell what he's doing and how he's so much more than a power dunker now -- but that's on the offensive end. Expecting him to elevate his defensive game, in light of his diminishing physical ability, is just not realistic.
You're also counting on the magical transformation the Celtics underwent. Where exactly are these players and pieces you're going to put around Melo and Amare coming from? Boston got Ray with a No. 5 pick and KG with a promising young big in Al Jefferson. The Knicks aren't going to have such assets anytime soon. And how are you going to do it with a new labor pact that is likely to hamstring them as much as any team in the league because of the draft picks and young talent dealt and the size of Amare and Melo's contracts?
CB: I guess you left out the word "revisionist" in your history lesson, since you're calling Magic a "fantastic" defender. But anyway, your points about Magic and Pierce only bolster my argument. In a strong team defensive system, Melo and Amare will be fine. There's no reason -- mental or physical -- that Melo can't defend as well as Pierce. Same with Amare, who despite your doom-and-gloom report still has more physical tools than most PFs.
Jason Kidd had microfracture in 2004 and he's been fine without a subsequent surgery. Same for Zach Randolph (2005). So there's no guarantee that a guy will need a second surgery, and in an article in The Oregonian in November, a doctor from Harvard said one of the most important factors in how a player returns from microfracture surgery is the age of the player at the time of the surgery. He said "younger players tend to do better ... The reason for that is that younger athletes have better capacity for healing." Well, Amare was 22 when he had surgery. Pardon me if I take the good doctor's word over yours.
As for building around Melo and Amare, the Knicks will have plenty of resources. They'll have significant cap room in 2012 (as far as we can tell, since we don't know the rules). And even if the rules change, the Knicks will have at least some cap room. They have just three players under contract past 2012, and New York is now a hot free-agent destination. But the Knicks already have a few solid role players, some of whom should only improve -- Landry Fields, Shawne Williams, Toney Douglas and Ronny Turiaf, to name a few.
RB: Don't change what I wrote: I called Magic a fantastic "team" defender, which he was. Melo and Amare have never even been that on some very good teams. I suppose it must be George Karl and Jeff Bzdelik and Alvin Gentry and Mike D'Antoni and Frank Johnson and Terry Porter's fault that neither of them has made good on their amazing athleticism at the defensive end, right?
As for Amare and your doctor, did he talk directly about Stoudemire or just in generalities? Because my point about Amare is based on what I see: a guy who does not get the same elevation and does not have the same explosive step. And physical problems are a much bigger hindrance on D, where you have to react rather than act.
I love J-Kidd, and it's impressive that he's still effective, but there's a reason the Mavs play two point guard lineups now: he can't get to the rim or stay in front of the quicker point guards. So the microfracture has worked in that he's still playing -- but he's not anywhere near the same player.
The Knicks have more than $40 million committed to Amare and Melo, with Renaldo Balkman at $1.6 million. Even if they kept the current system, the cap would be, at most, $70 million in 2012. That's generous. That would mean they had $28 million to pay nine players. I don't see any way there isn't a hard cap in the next CBA, but even if there isn't, the Knicks won't be able to afford Chauncey Billups, Fields, Williams and Douglas and then go out and get anything more than minimum-salary free agents.
CB: A lot of it does have to do with the coaching. I'm not saying it's not on the players as well; I'm just saying that a coach who emphasizes defense and has a good team defensive system combined with the maturity and understanding that comes with age could make Amare and Melo good defenders. Heck, they've already shown more desire to defend in their short time together in New York.
As for the cap space, neither you nor I know what the future holds for the CBA. What we do know, however, is that the Knicks are on pace to have a lower payroll than most teams, one low enough to add solid talent. Billups may not be in the plans two years from now if they get a top PG like D-Will or CP3 in free agency. While neither of those guys will play for pennies, I do think it's safe to say they won't simply run to the highest bidder. If New York's looking strong, they'll give it serious consideration.
And were you really trying to blame J-Kidd's loss of athleticism on his microfracture rather than his age (37)? Come on, Ric, you're better than that. Sure Amare's not what he was when he was younger, but he's still athletic. In fact, he's showing more explosion than he did two years ago in Phoenix.
RB: Amare still has flashes of his old self, but you're asking me to believe he's somehow going to get healthier and play better defense than he did when he could jump out of the gym -- sorry, that's just a little too pie-in-the-sky for me. No offense to the newspaper you quoted or the Harvard-trained doc it interviewed, but a general opinion about microfracture doesn't trump seeing how Amare has changed and the measures he's having to take at 28 just to suit up.
And one minute you're telling me how J-Kidd is fine despite microfracture and now his game has fallen off because he's 37. Funny how the microfracture-less 37-year-old Steve Nash hasn't had to change his game. Or how healthy-kneed 35-year-old Ray Allen is playing some of his best basketball.
What really mystifies me, though, is your presumption the Knicks are getting Deron or CP3 and adding pieces that are going to get Amare and Melo to buy into playing defense. Never mind that neither of those PGs, as good as they are, has had that effect on previous teammates.
You know how many teams have $40 million-plus devoted to two players in 2012? Three: Knicks, Lakers and Magic, and the latter is only if Dwight Howard exercises his option, which is a big if. You know how many teams are in line to have more cap room than the Knicks in 2012 right now? Twenty-two.
The fact you're counting so heavily on the Knicks landing a bonanza of additions to make Amare and Melo a championship nucleus just doesn't hold up. I'm not even wild about how they fit together offensively. But the bottom line is, true championship duos make the players around them better, not the other way around.
CB: Who said I was counting on other players to make Amare and Melo defend? I'm counting on a coach (Mike D'Antoni or otherwise) and their own determination to compete for a title. You know that young players come into the league thinking of putting up points and becoming superstars. The last thing on their minds early on is defending. But as they achieve star status and All-Star accolades, and as they begin to realize that their legacies and greatness will be measured by winning, they then begin to pay more attention to the things that lead to winning (i.e. defense).
Beyond that, your dismissal of the "age factor" is mind-boggling, as is your dismissal of an established medical doctor's opinion. Yes, Kidd has slowed down because he's 37! You find that hard to believe?! Wake up, bro. Nash is an aberration, as was John Stockton. Besides, Nash couldn't guard a trash can -- then and now.
You act as if Amare is walking around with a cane. He's not going to be chasing point guards around on the perimeter. He's still got plenty of athleticism, especially enough to be a solid defender in a team scheme. If he's lost so much, how is he averaging a career high in blocks? I know that doesn't necessarily equate to great D, but it certainly equates to good athleticism, instincts and timing when you're talking about a 6-foot-10 guy and not a 7-2 guy who just gets blocks because he's big.
Amare has already shown more athleticism, leadership and maturity this season than just about anyone imagined possible. To think he'll continue to grow and mature isn't out of the question. Both Amare and Melo have been key factors in getting their teams to the conference finals, so to think they don't have what it takes to go one step further is flat-out wrong.
RB: There are so many misconceptions here I'm going to have to number them:
1. Kidd and Amare are the aberrations, not Nash in this day and age. The vast majority of microfracture guys retire either because they can't adjust to still be effective or because they don't want to undergo a second procedure.
2. When did one doctor you've never even met become the sage of all things microfracture? I've talked to multiple doctors who have performed it and multiple players who have had it, because I was a candidate for it myself. The one constant: it's a last-ditch move and you're never the same again. Ever. There's a reason no one (including Phoenix) other than a desperate Knicks team was willing to sign Amare long term.
3. George Karl developed great defensive teams and players in both Seattle and Denver. You can blame D'Antoni all you want for Amare's lack of desire to play D, but the blame-the-coach angle is gutshot when it comes to Melo and Karl. It goes to show if a player isn't willing, it doesn't matter who the coach is. The fact is, Nash was a willing and solid team defender. That's what is so damning about Amare -- twice the athlete, half the defensive effort.
4. Shot-blocking isn't about athleticism, it's about length and timing. Otherwise, Blake Griffin would be a great shot-blocker instead of a subpar one and LeBron would do more than get rundown blocks. The best shot-blockers don't leave their feet to get a piece of the ball. Andrew Bogut isn't anywhere near the best athlete among big men and he leads the league.
As for a being a great two-man nucleus, what exactly is that based on? Their offensive stats separately? Because they haven't been earth-shattering together. I'd rather have Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah if I'm building toward a championship, in part because all four of those guys have put in the effort to be two-way players regardless of who their coaches have been, in part because their abilities mesh. But the most important thing is that after Pau and Kobe, no one is getting paid anywhere close to what Amare and Melo are making as a tandem. Most teams have three quality players for the price of those two.
You're banking on Amare and Melo finally coming to grips with their careers being half over, not having a ring and finally committing themselves to being effective at both ends of the floor. All because they're going to be part of a championship formula in New York. I know Knicks fans and the big stage can be pretty motivating, but you sound like a fan rather than an analyst talking that way. The harsh truth? They've both already been part of championship-caliber teams and didn't take advantage of it. (Ray, KG and Pierce never had that, they just dreamed of it.) There are few second chances in the NBA and their best ones of winning a ring already may be in their rearview mirror.
They -- and you -- just can't see it.
3/12/2011 5:14 AM