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Relevant article: Do the Knicks need a Stat Geek?
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crzymdups
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3/1/2011  1:02 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/25595/the-knicks-could-use-a-good-geek

In a couple of days a lot of NBA bigwigs (and ... smallwigs?) will head to Boston for the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. A lot of the smartest people in basketball and the broader sports world will gather to discuss massively important things like the future of the sports business. (I think it's sold out, but maybe we'll see you at TrueHoop's unofficial after party.)

And, even though analytics have long been a wholly accepted part of Wall Street, health care, marketing, politics, insurance and many other industries, at this conference -- book it! -- one of the major topics, again, will be: Do sports even need analytics?

It's one of those questions that is important in that it accurately portrays the state of the thinking of countless fans, owners, GMs, coaches and players.

However, it's also a mildly shameful question, because it demonstrates a powerful closed-mindedness on the part of those same people. It's getting to be time to move beyond that. There certainly are arguments to be had about how to value the different pieces of advanced statistical analysis. But there is not really a good argument against working with the best possible information. Simply put, if you know what to do with good analysis, of course it helps.

Case in point: The Knicks -- who are due to get torched by a series of elite perimeter scorers in the months ahead, and just played Anthony Carter long minutes on a hunch he might be able to check Dwyane Wade -- just cut Corey Brewer.

Brewer may well be the league's leading candidate to be the next Bruce Bowen, and is an interesting test case in how statistics can be used effectively to enhance, not replace, the human eye.

Basically, despite playing for a miserable Timberwolves team, he has showed up very well in almost any stat that incorporates defense -- plus/minus, adjusted plus/minus, opponents' productivity, etc. Some of that is probably an artifact of the reality that it's easy to be efficient when you aspire to do little on offense. Brewer doesn't take a lot of bad shots, he can feed the post, and he's incredibly high energy so he cleans up on turnovers and with easy buckets.

Defensive statistics are among the least conclusive statistics in existence, so I'm not arguing to use those statistics to hand out contracts and roster spots. But I am arguing to use them as an early warning system, and to guide the video basketball decision-makers spend their precious time watching.

Smart teams, I'd wager, have been watching Corey Brewer for a long time for this exact reason.

And what they have been seeing is a defensive show. Once you clue in to the guy, it's glaringly obvious that no one on the court is defending like him. He's narrow, long, strong, quick and feisty -- which is a perfect set of attributes to fight over a screen. He has great hands. He goads non-shooters into shooting, and keeps great shooters from making a catch. He talks constantly on defense -- he's not only in the right place, but he knows where everybody else is supposed to be, too.

If we lived in a world where defense was valued as much as offense, YouTube would be filled with highlights of Brewer making things unusually tough for Manu Ginobili, Kevin Durant, Ray Allen, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony and others.

I can hear what the Knicks are thinking: In Mike D'Antoni's offense, they need to space the floor, they need to give their playing time to shooters. Even here, just looking at his career 31 percent 3-point field goal percentage is not enough. His 384 career 3 attempts include dozens of end-of-quarter heaves. He might lead the league in those. And there's reason to suspect he has the potential to punish defenses that leave him alone: Last year, even with all those Hail Marys, he had a strech of months shooting better than 40 percent from downtown, setting a Minnesota franchise record most consecutive games with a made 3, and prompting John Hollinger to call Brewer perhaps the most improved NBA shooter ever.

The entire time he's also (like his Gator teammates Al Horford and Joakim Noah, with whom he won two national titles, and lost just one tournament game of any kind in three years) relentlessly cheery and supportive of his teammates, racing all over the place to deliver high-fives and to pick up fallen teammates. He has stayed upbeat while being the injured and forgotten benchwarmer on a terrible team. In other words, there's no reason to suspect he'd be a threat to any team's chemistry.

There are NBA teams that have really embraced advanced statistical analysis. The list is long, and is headed by the likes of Houston, Dallas, Boston, Cleveland, San Antonio and Oklahoma City. If the Knicks were among them, I can't imagine they'd have let Brewer go. And now that he's free to sign with a team really values him, I'll make two predictions: Brewer will sign with a team that is sophisticated in its use of stats, and over the next couple of years, he will make that team better.

If all that comes true, that's why statistical analysis matters -- because we do a miserable job of using the naked eye to assess the value of non-scorers, and it hurts teams all the time.

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Knickoftime
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3/1/2011  1:14 PM
Brewer's QO next year is $5m. Players signed to one-year QO deals effectively get no-trade clauses (which can be waived).

Knicks weren't going to extend him the QO, unless he was some sort of last 1/3 of the season revelation.

You don't need a stat geek to understand he wasn't going to be a Knick "over the next couple of years". You needed someone who understands the cap and the Knicks aspirations for a 3rd star player.

GodSaveTheKnicks
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3/1/2011  2:31 PM
Knickoftime wrote:Brewer's QO next year is $5m. Players signed to one-year QO deals effectively get no-trade clauses (which can be waived).

Knicks weren't going to extend him the QO, unless he was some sort of last 1/3 of the season revelation.

You don't need a stat geek to understand he wasn't going to be a Knick "over the next couple of years". You needed someone who understands the cap and the Knicks aspirations for a 3rd star player.

What would have happened if Brewer just played out the season? If we could have just let him go without him counting against the cap..what's the harm in having someone like him around??

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Knickoftime
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3/1/2011  2:36 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:What would have happened if Brewer just played out the season? If we could have just let him go without him counting against the cap..what's the harm in having someone like him around??

No harm to the Knicks. But obviously the team felt he was not going to be a part of the rotation. So as many teams do, since he's not in their plans for next year, they simply let him go and allow him to find a situation where he can play.

martin
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3/1/2011  2:49 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:What would have happened if Brewer just played out the season? If we could have just let him go without him counting against the cap..what's the harm in having someone like him around??

No harm to the Knicks. But obviously the team felt he was not going to be a part of the rotation. So as many teams do, since he's not in their plans for next year, they simply let him go and allow him to find a situation where he can play.

I think someone noted that his agent was none other than Happy Walters. So it's a fav too.

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Knickoftime
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3/1/2011  2:53 PM
martin wrote:I think someone noted that his agent was none other than Happy Walters. So it's a fav too.

Which if anyone is wondering, is the agent to Stat, Chandler and Shawne Williams, so obviously there is a relationship.

Bear in mind, if there are NO exemptions in the new CBA, Knicks ONLY option for retaining Williams would be a minimum contract.

Probably a good idea to keep things cooperative with Walters.

FistOfOakley
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3/1/2011  2:59 PM
counter argument

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/corey-brewer-isnt-answer-for-knicks-need-for-wing-depth/

scoshin
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3/1/2011  3:43 PM
So Corey Brewer had one of the better +/- and adjusted +/- for the worst defensive team in the league...and that's incontrovertible evidence of him being the next Bruce Bowen?

Not to knock on the kid; I'm sure he's a solid defender...but I highly doubt he's some lockdown wing defender that's going to make a difference for us or whatever team he ends up on.

This was the author's strongest argument for why we should've kept Brewer:

Smart teams, I'd wager, have been watching Corey Brewer for a long time for this exact reason.

And what they have been seeing is a defensive show. Once you clue in to the guy, it's glaringly obvious that no one on the court is defending like him. He's narrow, long, strong, quick and feisty -- which is a perfect set of attributes to fight over a screen. He has great hands. He goads non-shooters into shooting, and keeps great shooters from making a catch. He talks constantly on defense -- he's not only in the right place, but he knows where everybody else is supposed to be, too.

...and none of that would've shown up on the stat sheet lol. Doesn't exactly support his argument that we need MOAR STAT GEEKS

TheGame
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3/1/2011  4:07 PM
I really think we should have kept Brewer and cut Mason. Mason is not going to see the light of day. Brewer might be need to defend Wade or Derrick Rose. Hopefully, Brown turns into a quality player and we forget about Brewer, but I think cutting him was a mistake.
Trust the Process
Olbrannon
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3/1/2011  6:01 PM
TheGame wrote:I really think we should have kept Brewer and cut Mason. Mason is not going to see the light of day. Brewer might be need to defend Wade or Derrick Rose. Hopefully, Brown turns into a quality player and we forget about Brewer, but I think cutting him was a mistake.

Co-sign. but ..well let's just throw it out there-

When Stern disclosed elements of the owners’ proposal last month, Hunter remained silent. He finally responded Monday, after the union’s annual turkey giveaway to needy families.

N.B.A. owners want significant changes, including a hard salary cap, shorter contracts, smaller annual raises, less guaranteed money and a nearly 40 percent reduction in salaries and benefits, amounting to about $750 million to $800 million out of the current $2.1 billion.

“Every player I’ve talked to thinks that’s completely unreasonable,” said the Knicks’ Roger Mason Jr., a union vice president.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/sports/basketball/23hunter.html

There may be other forces at work here.

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
crzymdups
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3/1/2011  6:04 PM
martin wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:What would have happened if Brewer just played out the season? If we could have just let him go without him counting against the cap..what's the harm in having someone like him around??

No harm to the Knicks. But obviously the team felt he was not going to be a part of the rotation. So as many teams do, since he's not in their plans for next year, they simply let him go and allow him to find a situation where he can play.

I think someone noted that his agent was none other than Happy Walters. So it's a fav too.

ah, did not realize that.

still, i have to think they'd take a look at the kid.

he's a lotto pick, an NCAA champ and a true lockdown defender. his pedigree is off the charts and he's had some success in the NBA. he doesn't have a prototypical frame, but neither did tayshun prince or ariza.

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mythfaze
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3/1/2011  6:21 PM
scoshin wrote:So Corey Brewer had one of the better +/- and adjusted +/- for the worst defensive team in the league...and that's incontrovertible evidence of him being the next Bruce Bowen?

Not to knock on the kid; I'm sure he's a solid defender...but I highly doubt he's some lockdown wing defender that's going to make a difference for us or whatever team he ends up on.

This was the author's strongest argument for why we should've kept Brewer:

Smart teams, I'd wager, have been watching Corey Brewer for a long time for this exact reason.

And what they have been seeing is a defensive show. Once you clue in to the guy, it's glaringly obvious that no one on the court is defending like him. He's narrow, long, strong, quick and feisty -- which is a perfect set of attributes to fight over a screen. He has great hands. He goads non-shooters into shooting, and keeps great shooters from making a catch. He talks constantly on defense -- he's not only in the right place, but he knows where everybody else is supposed to be, too.

...and none of that would've shown up on the stat sheet lol. Doesn't exactly support his argument that we need MOAR STAT GEEKS

Stat Geek?

martin
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3/1/2011  6:45 PM
^ ha Good one
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Olbrannon
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3/1/2011  6:49 PM
mythfaze wrote:
scoshin wrote:So Corey Brewer had one of the better +/- and adjusted +/- for the worst defensive team in the league...and that's incontrovertible evidence of him being the next Bruce Bowen?

Not to knock on the kid; I'm sure he's a solid defender...but I highly doubt he's some lockdown wing defender that's going to make a difference for us or whatever team he ends up on.

This was the author's strongest argument for why we should've kept Brewer:

Smart teams, I'd wager, have been watching Corey Brewer for a long time for this exact reason.

And what they have been seeing is a defensive show. Once you clue in to the guy, it's glaringly obvious that no one on the court is defending like him. He's narrow, long, strong, quick and feisty -- which is a perfect set of attributes to fight over a screen. He has great hands. He goads non-shooters into shooting, and keeps great shooters from making a catch. He talks constantly on defense -- he's not only in the right place, but he knows where everybody else is supposed to be, too.

...and none of that would've shown up on the stat sheet lol. Doesn't exactly support his argument that we need MOAR STAT GEEKS

Stat Geek?

Man those are some sturdy frames there. Are those really bulletproof glass?

Clark Kent vs Superman tonite fellas

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
CrushAlot
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3/1/2011  9:14 PM
Brewer may well be the league's leading candidate to be the next Bruce Bowen, and is an interesting test case in how statistics can be used effectively to enhance, not replace, the human eye.

Basically, despite playing for a miserable Timberwolves team, he has showed up very well in almost any stat that incorporates defense -- plus/minus, adjusted plus/minus, opponents' productivity, etc. Some of that is probably an artifact of the reality that it's easy to be efficient when you aspire to do little on offense. Brewer doesn't take a lot of bad shots, he can feed the post, and he's incredibly high energy so he cleans up on turnovers and with easy buckets.

The Knicks could have a stat geek but with D'Antoni he would not be focused on what Brewer brings to the table. This is pretty disappointing. Brewer was the 7th pick in the draft. I don't get how Rautins stays on this team. These guys have to be about the same age. The Knicks needed a stopper and role player. Brewer is the kind of guy that you notice alot more on a good team.

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PresIke
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3/1/2011  10:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/1/2011  10:26 PM
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks could have a stat geek but with D'Antoni he would not be focused on what Brewer brings to the table.

dude, you are too hilarious.

yeah, mda isn't focused on defensive players for his team. if you play defense, you sit!

lmao...

so anthony carter is playing, and jared jeffries was signed because...

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
CrushAlot
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3/1/2011  10:36 PM
PresIke wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks could have a stat geek but with D'Antoni he would not be focused on what Brewer brings to the table.

dude, you are too hilarious.

yeah, mda isn't focused on defensive players for his team. if you play defense, you sit!

lmao...

so anthony carter is playing, and jared jeffries was signed because...

Glad to see you think I am hilarious.
This is pretty disappointing. Brewer was the 7th pick in the draft. I don't get how Rautins stays on this team. These guys have to be about the same age. The Knicks needed a stopper and role player. Brewer is the kind of guy that you notice alot more on a good team.
If you disagree with this that is fine but don't leave it out and say its hilarious.
I think D'Antoni is playing Carter because he has to. I don't know what to say about Jeffries but I would never include him in a post where I was trying to make a point. We might disagree on the coach's focus on defense but I don't see how that is hilarious. Explain the humor to me.
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PresIke
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3/1/2011  10:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/1/2011  10:50 PM
so, are you also aware that brewer, from what we are hearing, wants to be assured minutes, and his agent has a relationship with the knicks?

maybe that's wrong, but that may be also part of the reason he was cut...

but who cares?

to you, from my perspective, this has to be about mda hating defense...

and you did not sufficiently answer. so, your argument is that what, jeffries isn't part of a legit point? dude, he's an nba player, signed by the team...

for what reasons? that's what i am asking. your dismissal of him as a point of discussion, because...what some knick fans think he's "a joke", is avoiding the question, entirely.

and what about carter? because he has to? care to provide evidence of such a claim? mda is judged based on wins/performance.

you are hilarious because it's become a bit of a silly notion, to me, to the ends in which you seem find ways to support your notion that mda does not like playing defensive minded players.

your point isn't a reach...it's fantasy...unless you can show some legit evidence about this specific case...

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
CrushAlot
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3/1/2011  11:09 PM
I disagree. You quoted my post and said it was hilarious. The article quoted calls Brewer the next Bowen. The Times article has a different perspective. A differing opinion based on facts is not hilarious. When you have a guy like Rautins on the team who has done nothing, was a second round pick, is 24 and is not going to help this year, is it wrong to question why a guy that was the 7th pick in the draft was waived and this guy is still around? Rautins and Brewer are the same age and one was a lottery pick. I have issues with D'Antoni and I don't hide that. I never said that D'Antoni didn't keep Brewer because he hated defense but I do think his slant is so far to the offensive end that it influences his rotation and guys like Shawne Williams have to cover Dwight Howard. My point was that if there was a stat guy working for the Knicks the coach would focus on the offense and how it ran. As far as Carter is concerned he is a good player and a vet. The kind of guy D'Antoni always relys on whether his team is playing out the season or competing for a playoff spot.

Have you ever noticied that if someone has a different opinion from yours it is often hilarious or a fantasy. WTF dude. Check yourself a bit.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
franco12
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3/2/2011  8:03 AM
PresIke wrote:so, are you also aware that brewer, from what we are hearing, wants to be assured minutes, and his agent has a relationship with the knicks?

maybe that's wrong, but that may be also part of the reason he was cut...

but who cares?

to you, from my perspective, this has to be about mda hating defense...

and you did not sufficiently answer. so, your argument is that what, jeffries isn't part of a legit point? dude, he's an nba player, signed by the team...

for what reasons? that's what i am asking. your dismissal of him as a point of discussion, because...what some knick fans think he's "a joke", is avoiding the question, entirely.

and what about carter? because he has to? care to provide evidence of such a claim? mda is judged based on wins/performance.

you are hilarious because it's become a bit of a silly notion, to me, to the ends in which you seem find ways to support your notion that mda does not like playing defensive minded players.

your point isn't a reach...it's fantasy...unless you can show some legit evidence about this specific case...

With as heinous as our perimeter defense is and has been, especially now after trading two solid defenders like Gallo and Chandler, if D'Antoni were more flexible, he could certainly guarantee him minutes enough to keep him interested and working on his shot to improve it.

We could have used him last night when Nelson went off like Isiah Thomas and pretty much won the game himself.

Relevant article: Do the Knicks need a Stat Geek?

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