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Hollinger finds new ways to crap on Knicks
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Biggamer3
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2/22/2011  2:11 PM
He ripped gallo, chandler all year, now they are great!


Finally, it's over. Carmelo Anthony gets to become a New York Knick, just as he pushed for all season, and it seems there's reason for relief and joy everywhere.

New York fans can rejoice over their team's new star combo. Chauncey Billups can rejoice over getting paid his $14 million next season. Denver Nuggets owner Stan Kroenke can rejoice because his team will get under the luxury tax line. Memphis Grizzlies and Portland Trail Blazers fans can rejoice over suddenly increased odds of a playoff berth. And writers and fans can rejoice because they can finally talk about something else.

Actually ... not so fast on that last one.

First, we have to assess the carnage of the final deal. Anthony will head to New York in a 12-player swap that will send Timofey Mozgov, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler to Denver along with New York's first-round pick in 2014 (or later), Golden State's second round picks in 2012 and 2013 and $3 million in cash. Joining Melo in the Big Apple will be Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter, Renaldo Balkman and Minnesota's Corey Brewer. Meanwhile, the Timberwolves will also get $3 million of New York's money, along with Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry.

Here's our outlook:

Report Card: Nuggets send Melo to New York

Denver trades Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman to the Knicks for Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, a first-round draft pick (2014 or later) and cash. Knicks also send Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry to Minnesota for Corey Brewer.

• View this deal in the ESPN Trade Machine

New York: D+

You can't evaluate this as you would a normal trade. This deal was made at gunpoint, and that colors the entire assessment.

Anthony became the first player in memory to issue a trade demand and then list one team that he'd accept a trade to. And then somehow, the Knicks decided to start bidding against themselves and repeatedly agreed to up the ante in the final hours.

New York could have had Anthony this summer while losing only Chandler (a restricted free agent they would have had to renounce). Their primary risk to that outcome was a "franchise tag" in the new collective bargaining agreement that would have allowed Denver to keep Anthony. But even then plenty of alternatives were available for the Knicks, as three better players -- Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Dwight Howard -- all seemed anxious to get to the Big Apple via power plays of their own, and one of the three (or another marquee star) may have wriggled free regardless of what new restrictions the next CBA imposes.

This isn't Indiana or Memphis, and this saga laid that reality bare. Even with a franchise tag rule, New York had so many advantages that it was only a matter of time before a second star showed up, especially given the salary cap space the Knicks had carved out.

To get a player like Anthony in those circumstances, it was worth paying something above just Chandler to convert a likely outcome to a certainty.

But in this case the premium New York paid was as follows, beyond Chandler:

- Gallinari

- Mozgov

- Their 2014 first-round draft pick

- Golden State's second-round picks in 2012 and 2013 (owned by the Knicks)

- $6 million in cash ($3 million each to Minnesota and Denver)

- Swallowing two dead-money years at the end of Balkman's contract

- Trading Anthony Randolph for Corey Brewer

- Trading Felton for Billups, making New York eight years older at the point guard spot with a player who makes nearly twice in salary next season.

Remind again why they needed to commit to all eight of these additional considerations for a player they were likely to get anyway?

The worst part, of course, is that this deal proves that no matter how many advantages New York gains from its magnetic appeal to potential free agents, owner James Dolan will screw them up. Leaning on the genius of Isiah Thomas -- because it worked out so well for the first time -- he fell hook, line and sinker for every bluff thrown his way by the Nuggets and Melo's people. (Yes, Melo's people participated -- Anthony needed to make sure he got a lucrative contract extension under the current salary rules before being traded.)

New York still gets its Melo-Stoudemire nucleus, but now lacks the supporting pieces to do anything important with that core. And by extending Melo now, they agree to lock him up at such an expensive price that, in concert with Stoudemire's deal, it likely precludes making a run at Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Dwight Howard in 2012.

Denver: B+

With a loaded gun pointed at their heads, the Nuggets bluffed and schemed their way to a very palatable end-game by running circles around the New York area's battling ownership groups. Using New Jersey for leverage and hoping the Knicks were foolish enough to take the bait, Denver eventually squeezed terms that got the Nuggets under the luxury tax line -- a sizable fit considering they were $13 million over -- brought in a much younger point guard, two quality forwards, a young big man, a first-round pick, two second-round picks and cash.

That's not a bad haul, and it still may be improved upon. With Lawson ready to move up to the starting role, it appears Felton may be moved on to a third team. It's not out of the question that Denver could still make the playoffs, and if the Nuggets can hang on to center Nene Hilario -- another of the Nuggets' potential free agents -- Denver will come out of this in far better shape than most teams that lose a star player.

Minnesota: B+

I like Brewer, but I'd trade him for Randolph in a heartbeat. Brewer is a solid role player who plays great defense but can't shoot or dribble. That type of player has his uses, but that's all Brewer will ever be. Helpful, yes, but fungible too.

Randolph has a lower floor but a much higher ceiling. He can't shoot, he weighs 11 pounds and he's a head case. On the other hand, he has rare shot-blocking talent, handles the ball unusually well for a player of his size, and is an elite athlete. He's a potential game-changer at the defensive end and, if the light bulb ever comes on, he's going to provide a very potent complement to Kevin Love's skills in the Minnesota frontcourt.

The price of that trade was just swallowing Curry's expiring contract, but because of the difference in salary between Brewer and Randolph and the $3 million coming from New York, it's pretty much a wash financially. Basically it amounts to a free talent upgrade for Minnesota just for loaning out their cap space to get the Nuggets under the luxury tax.

AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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2/22/2011  2:23 PM
Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

If Walsh waits and waits until noon on Thursday and offers Chandler, the $18mm in cap relief Den got and and the 2 picks (AR + 2014) this trade still gets done. IF you want to go crazy and include Felton for the $$$ fine. Denver will NOT walk away from that. If they did what then? Melo stays for the money or if he's serious about "winning" he can join STAT and a roster loaded w/ young talent for a max contract this summer.

Diva wanted his money and Dolan got down on all fours.

The Knicks were in a position to dictate EVERYTHING. Yet they laid down and didnt even wait to make Denver sweat.

D+ is about right.

Whats impressive is for the Nuggets who should get an A+. You have a player demanding a trade you can lose for nothing at the end of the year and will only go to one team, so you fleece that team of everay available asset and pick they can trade. Mind numbing

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
earthmansurfer
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2/22/2011  2:34 PM
Well, he said a lot of true things in there. We sure did bid against ourselves. Minny is going to have to pay the remainder of Curry's salary, minus the 3 million in cash we sent them. If we payed more than Curry's salary up to this point, Minny can't use that. That has been answered before. So, Curry is costing Minny around 2 million (11million - half of season salary (app 6 mill) minus 3 million in cash). And we got Brewer back? Couldn't we have kept AR and dumped Curry to another team for something else?

We really F'd ourselves here, Melo incuded. He should have taken less and signed as a FA and then we would have some assets to trade for Deron or Paul, as it stands now, I don't see us having the money to offer a third max. (We will have to let Fields go or hope a max takes a 5 million dollar or more paycut). We are not getting a third max. We need to get a very good center and perhaps we can trade our newly acquired PG's 14 million dollar expiring next year plus some other players or picks for a nice player on a longer conract (to a team looking to save money).

Guys, we are going to have to be creative here. Much more so than Miami was (not to mention the big three all took pay cuts). The players we have that could be here in 2012 are going to cost to much to resign (Williams, Walker, Douglas and unfortunately Fields) and also get a max, for sure.

I'd say we are in a corner regarding a 3rd max, but adding a great player and good performance from our bench could put us over the top.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
crzymdups
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2/22/2011  2:36 PM
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

If Walsh waits and waits until noon on Thursday and offers Chandler, the $18mm in cap relief Den got and and the 2 picks (AR + 2014) this trade still gets done. IF you want to go crazy and include Felton for the $$$ fine. Denver will NOT walk away from that. If they did what then? Melo stays for the money or if he's serious about "winning" he can join STAT and a roster loaded w/ young talent for a max contract this summer.

Diva wanted his money and Dolan got down on all fours.

The Knicks were in a position to dictate EVERYTHING. Yet they laid down and didnt even wait to make Denver sweat.

D+ is about right.

Whats impressive is for the Nuggets who should get an A+. You have a player demanding a trade you can lose for nothing at the end of the year and will only go to one team, so you fleece that team of everay available asset and pick they can trade. Mind numbing

I think you have to take what Hollinger says with a pretty big grain of salt. Earlier in the year he was incredulous that the Nuggets would even consider a package from the crappy Knicks.

He's such a Knicks hater and so critical of everything they do... sometimes I wonder if he posts here.

¿ △ ?
CrushAlot
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2/22/2011  2:38 PM
I think he is right on in his assessment.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
crzymdups
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2/22/2011  2:40 PM
Also, Amar'e is not that much better than DLee. Who can forget Hollinger's insight on that one?
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nixluva
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2/22/2011  2:41 PM
It doesn't matter what we paid. It only matters what we got in the deal. If the end product is a better team with a better chance to build a contender then it was worth it. The goal is to be able to put together a title contender. This isn't like shopping at Walmart. We went to a Mercedes dealership with a bunch of Hyundai's and drove off with a Luxury Coupe.
CrushAlot
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2/22/2011  2:43 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

If Walsh waits and waits until noon on Thursday and offers Chandler, the $18mm in cap relief Den got and and the 2 picks (AR + 2014) this trade still gets done. IF you want to go crazy and include Felton for the $$$ fine. Denver will NOT walk away from that. If they did what then? Melo stays for the money or if he's serious about "winning" he can join STAT and a roster loaded w/ young talent for a max contract this summer.

Diva wanted his money and Dolan got down on all fours.

The Knicks were in a position to dictate EVERYTHING. Yet they laid down and didnt even wait to make Denver sweat.

D+ is about right.

Whats impressive is for the Nuggets who should get an A+. You have a player demanding a trade you can lose for nothing at the end of the year and will only go to one team, so you fleece that team of everay available asset and pick they can trade. Mind numbing

I think you have to take what Hollinger says with a pretty big grain of salt. Earlier in the year he was incredulous that the Nuggets would even consider a package from the crappy Knicks.

He's such a Knicks hater and so critical of everything they do... sometimes I wonder if he posts here.

I don't think anyone thought the Knicks would give up the farm like they did. This is the Herschel Walker trade all over again.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
crzymdups
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2/22/2011  2:51 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

If Walsh waits and waits until noon on Thursday and offers Chandler, the $18mm in cap relief Den got and and the 2 picks (AR + 2014) this trade still gets done. IF you want to go crazy and include Felton for the $$$ fine. Denver will NOT walk away from that. If they did what then? Melo stays for the money or if he's serious about "winning" he can join STAT and a roster loaded w/ young talent for a max contract this summer.

Diva wanted his money and Dolan got down on all fours.

The Knicks were in a position to dictate EVERYTHING. Yet they laid down and didnt even wait to make Denver sweat.

D+ is about right.

Whats impressive is for the Nuggets who should get an A+. You have a player demanding a trade you can lose for nothing at the end of the year and will only go to one team, so you fleece that team of everay available asset and pick they can trade. Mind numbing

I think you have to take what Hollinger says with a pretty big grain of salt. Earlier in the year he was incredulous that the Nuggets would even consider a package from the crappy Knicks.

He's such a Knicks hater and so critical of everything they do... sometimes I wonder if he posts here.

I don't think anyone thought the Knicks would give up the farm like they did. This is the Herschel Walker trade all over again.

it's a lot like the trade the Celtics made to get KG. i don't think Melo is as good as KG was back then... but he's also 5 years younger than KG was at that point.

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FistOfOakley
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2/22/2011  2:59 PM
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think anyone thought the Knicks would give up the farm like they did. This is the Herschel Walker trade all over again.

that is such a complete exaggeration... i can agree that is a bit more than we should've put in but the nets offer was basically a herschel walker type of deal and we did not give up anywhere near that.

efw
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2/22/2011  3:04 PM
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

Take this for what it's worth, but SAS was on ESPN radio a little while ago and said he knows for a fact that Melo would've signed an extension with Jersey. He said Melo was not going back to Denver no matter what. If that's the case, then we did what we had to do. We might never know the truth.

Childs2Dudley
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2/22/2011  3:05 PM
efw wrote:
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

Take this for what it's worth, but SAS was on ESPN radio a little while ago and said he knows for a fact that Melo would've signed an extension with Jersey. He said Melo was not going back to Denver no matter what. If that's the case, then we did what we had to do. We might never know the truth.

SAS is an Isiah Thomas shill who will say anything anyone tells him.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
arkrud
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2/22/2011  3:09 PM
nixluva wrote:It doesn't matter what we paid. It only matters what we got in the deal. If the end product is a better team with a better chance to build a contender then it was worth it. The goal is to be able to put together a title contender. This isn't like shopping at Walmart. We went to a Mercedes dealership with a bunch of Hyundai's and drove off with a Luxury Coupe.

...with Isiah Tomas as a driver and a bunch of entertainment heappy fans as a passangers.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
fishmike
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2/22/2011  3:16 PM
efw wrote:
fishmike wrote:Not crap at all... 100% right. In bidding against themselves the Knicks gave up the farm. The insane offer the Knicks gave up STILL wasnt as good as the Nets. The reason Melo isnt a Net is because he WASNT GOING TO SIGN THERE.

Take this for what it's worth, but SAS was on ESPN radio a little while ago and said he knows for a fact that Melo would've signed an extension with Jersey. He said Melo was not going back to Denver no matter what. If that's the case, then we did what we had to do. We might never know the truth.

I think its worth crap because the Nets trade was better. Favors and Harris and 4 picks are better then the Knicks package even with Mosgov
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
arkrud
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2/22/2011  3:18 PM
There is no need to find a new way to crap on Knics.
The Knicks just made it possible to reuse the old crap.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Biggamer3
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2/22/2011  4:46 PM
Hollinger is the one who all year said the Knicks dont have enough to get Melo and once they get him they get a D rating since "he" feels they were bidding against themselves. First off they had competition and word was Melo could go to NJ so he is making **** up, and second "I THOUGHT WE DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH TO GET HIM?!"
Hollinger finds new ways to crap on Knicks

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