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Amare and Melo- It's not only in the stars...
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Paladin55
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2/21/2011  10:25 AM
...but what kind of stars they are.

To all the star-struck guys out there who feel the only way to win a title is to have at least two stars on your roster I ask this question:

Give me a title winning team which had two recognized "stars," where both stars were not two-way players- guys who could distinguish themselves on both ends of the court (especially as 1/1 defenders) and both were known as one-dimensional scorers frequently indifferent to the art of D?

I'm thinking that on most title winning teams the top stars on those teams were also guys who paid a lot of attention to defense...Or am I wrong?

So to reiterate, I would love to see examples of title winning teams (I'd even look at runner-up teams) where the two top dogs had reps as offense-only volume scorers, who were known for playing little heed to their defensive responsibilities, or were just downright bad as defenders.

Just wondering.

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matt
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2/21/2011  10:30 AM
Just wondering, but when has there been a team with two scorers as good as Amare and Melo, in a wack but entertaining offense like this?
MS
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2/21/2011  10:37 AM
Iverson and Melo is the same thing as STAT and Melo.

If you are in favor of this trade please give one example where something like this worked.

Jordan and Pippen were all world defenders they had Rodman and Tony K
Duncan great defender, Manu Great all around talent, Tony P
The Celts had Rondo and Perkins to go with there big three

THE SUNS had Stat, Marion, Joe Johnson and Steve Nash plus Barbosa off the bench. Where are we getting talent like that. Once the CBA drops the cap we are ****ed. Melo is and always will be about Melo. "I take my hat off to myself"

Our guys don't pass. Why are we struggling right now because of extended minutes for Amare and Felton. How does this solve the problem? We lose all our depth our big man and force Amare to play more minutes. Billups can't handle extended minutes. Can someone rationally think about this.

We need size. Jordan, Gasol, Baby, Free Agents.

The Thunder and the Heat are the only good teams with two guys scoring in the top 20 in the NBA. We are already a top offesive team this trade makes us weaker.

Again, if you want a medicore team for the next decade let's bring the SNITCH in.

Knickoftime
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2/21/2011  10:37 AM
Your smugness ignored for the moment, you (and others) are still missing and conspiciously ignore the obvious.

What's the alternative?

Knicks have been terrible for a decade.

85% of the NBA haven't been title contenders in any point in the league's history - it's been dominated by Boston, LA, Chicago, in recent years San Antonio, with the occasional Miami and Detroit getting a flash moment in the sun.

Knicks have a max player and 3 young players all due for significant raises in the next 17 months, which will erase their cap space for years to come.

So who is this (or these) two-way star(s) coming the Knicks way anytime soon?

Name them, how the Knicks get them, and what makes you absolutely certain the next CBA won't make that impossible?

Any knucklehead can shoot holes in the actual present opportunity. Few opportunities are flawless.

But unless you can carve a path to a viable superior alternative, you're just engaging in the common - criticizing the possible in comparison to the more attractive alternative of your fantasy.

MSG3
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2/21/2011  10:38 AM
No way we win a title if we don't play D. My thing is that I think when Amar'e and Melo team up it will have a very positive effect on team Defense. Pau Gasol was not known as a good defender in Memphis. But he stepped up when given the opportunitu to play on a special team. Same with Bosh and WAde. They were never as good on D as they are now.

I think when this deal happens there will be a new founf commitment to D. We may not turn into the Boston Celtics, but our Offense should be able to ensure that with some smart and tough D we will be able to beat teams like Boston, Miami, etc.

BlueSeats
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2/21/2011  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/21/2011  10:43 AM
Paladin55 wrote:...but what kind of stars they are.

To all the star-struck guys out there who feel the only way to win a title is to have at least two stars on your roster I ask this question:

Give me a title winning team which had two recognized "stars," where both stars were not two-way players- guys who could distinguish themselves on both ends of the court (especially as 1/1 defenders) and both were known as one-dimensional scorers frequently indifferent to the art of D?

I'm thinking that on most title winning teams the top stars on those teams were also guys who paid a lot of attention to defense...Or am I wrong?

So to reiterate, I would love to see examples of title winning teams (I'd even look at runner-up teams) where the two top dogs had reps as offense-only volume scorers, who were known for playing little heed to their defensive responsibilities, or were just downright bad as defenders.

Just wondering.

Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?

Couple where only one of the two were:

Hakeem and Drexler (Drex was no defensive juggernaut)

Isiah and Dumars (Du was good, Isiah rested on D)

While Bird, McHale, Parrish may have arguably been the best front court in history, Birds D was sporadic.

Kobe Gasol (Is Gasol any better than Amare?)

Who were the great defenders on the Vlade Lakers? Not Magic, Worthy or Vlade.

tj23
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2/21/2011  10:40 AM
Knickoftime wrote:Your smugness ignored for the moment, you (and others) are still missing and conspiciously ignore the obvious.

What's the alternative?

Knicks have been terrible for a decade.

85% of the NBA haven't been title contenders in any point in the league's history - it's been dominated by Boston, LA, Chicago, in recent years San Antonio, with the occasional Miami and Detroit getting a flash moment in the sun.

Knicks have a max player and 3 young players all due for significant raises in the next 17 months, which will erase their cap space for years to come.

So who is this (or these) two-way star(s) coming the Knicks way anytime soon?

Name them, how the Knicks get them, and what makes you absolutely certain the next CBA won't make that impossible?

Any knucklehead can shoot holes in the actual present opportunity. Few opportunities are flawless.

But unless you can carve a path to a viable superior alternative, you're just engaging in the common - criticizing the possible in comparison to the more attractive alternative of your fantasy.


I couldn't have said it better...
Knickoftime
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2/21/2011  10:41 AM
MS wrote:Iverson and Melo is the same thing as STAT and Melo.

Given 'Melo is the common denominator, you just compared Iverson at the tail end of this career (established fact) to Amare Stoudemire.

Good work there.

We need size. Jordan, Gasol, Baby, Free Agents.

The first two RESTRICTED free agents.

Do you understand what that means?

martin
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2/21/2011  10:42 AM
BlueSeats wrote:Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?

I think he meant both were bad/average defenders.

How many elite teams are there where both their top guys were deficient at defense.

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FeltonandAmare
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2/21/2011  10:46 AM
Knickoftime wrote:Your smugness ignored for the moment, you (and others) are still missing and conspiciously ignore the obvious.

What's the alternative?

Knicks have been terrible for a decade.

85% of the NBA haven't been title contenders in any point in the league's history - it's been dominated by Boston, LA, Chicago, in recent years San Antonio, with the occasional Miami and Detroit getting a flash moment in the sun.

Knicks have a max player and 3 young players all due for significant raises in the next 17 months, which will erase their cap space for years to come.

So who is this (or these) two-way star(s) coming the Knicks way anytime soon?

Name them, how the Knicks get them, and what makes you absolutely certain the next CBA won't make that impossible?

Any knucklehead can shoot holes in the actual present opportunity. Few opportunities are flawless.

But unless you can carve a path to a viable superior alternative, you're just engaging in the common - criticizing the possible in comparison to the more attractive alternative of your fantasy.

Perfect analysis of the "smugness" of the posters who attack this deal and the reality of what things would be like if this deal doesn't happen. Thanks.

BlueSeats
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2/21/2011  10:53 AM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?

I think he meant both were bad/average defenders.

How many elite teams are there where both their top guys were deficient at defense.


I will say this. I have seen both Amare and Melo play good defense. It is not their specialty, but it's there. However, they both play HOF caliber offense (IOW barring catastrophic injury if either wins a chip they're in.)

In another thread I compared Melo's stats to other HOF offensive machines. I suspect history would show that HOF players give you a better chance to win than mediocre two-way role players.

The defensive acuity of this team is equally dependent on the coach at this stage of the game, IOW the kind of players they are surrounded with and the focus put on it.

My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without. There are always opportunity costs, but there is no current calculus that can project us from a .500 team to a championship overnight. You seem to be inferring you have one up your sleeve. Lets see it.

Paladin55
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2/21/2011  10:58 AM
matt wrote:Just wondering, but when has there been a team with two scorers as good as Amare and Melo, in a wack but entertaining offense like this?

1.	Tiny Archibald*-KCO	34.0
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*-MIL 30.2
3. Spencer Haywood-SEA 29.2
4. Lou Hudson-ATL 27.1
5. Pete Maravich*-ATL 26.1

6. Charlie Scott-PHO 25.3
7. Geoff Petrie-POR 24.9
8. Gail Goodrich*-LAL 23.9
9. Sidney Wicks-POR 23.8

The Knicks won their second title in the above season.

Atlanta was 46-36 with Hudson and Maravich, I seem to recall that Hudson was a pretty good defender, Maravich was a joke on D.

1.	Bob McAdoo*-BUF	                31.1
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*-LAL 27.7
3. Pete Maravich*-NOJ 25.9
4. Tiny Archibald*-KCK 24.8
5. Fred Brown-SEA 23.1
6. George McGinnis-PHI 23.0
7. Randy Smith-BUF 21.8

75-6 season- Celtics were champs. Buffalo was also 46-36. McAdoo was a bit like Amare but a much better rebounder. Pretty sure that Smith was a good defender.

You could probably find some mediocre, but high scoring, teams who have long been forgotten.

The fact is that I don't think you can find the kind of team I am asking folks to find, and the simple reason is that a team with that kind of make-up is not going to win a title.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Paladin55
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2/21/2011  11:07 AM
That above Buffalo team was fun to watch with McAdoo and Smith, who were, arguably two of the most exciting players in the league at the time.

RE some of the Lake/Celtics teams. The played good team D and guys like Bird/Worthy/Magic were not poor defenders in terms of the effort they put in. Of course those teams also had great defenders like Parish, Scott, Cooper, D.Johnson, McHale, Jabbar, Maurice Lucas, etc.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
martin
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2/21/2011  11:09 AM
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?

I think he meant both were bad/average defenders.

How many elite teams are there where both their top guys were deficient at defense.


I will say this. I have seen both Amare and Melo play good defense. It is not their specialty, but it's there. However, they both play HOF caliber offense (IOW barring catastrophic injury if either wins a chip they're in.)

In another thread I compared Melo's stats to other HOF offensive machines. I suspect history would show that HOF players give you a better chance to win than mediocre two-way role players.

The defensive acuity of this team is equally dependent on the coach at this stage of the game, IOW the kind of players they are surrounded with and the focus put on it.

My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without. There are always opportunity costs, but there is no current calculus that can project us from a .500 team to a championship overnight. You seem to be inferring you have one up your sleeve. Lets see it.

I think this post of mine def got lost in all of the threads, so I am reposting.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38137&page=3#830127

Here is a better plan than the one for Melo:

Let's make assumption that Chandler is $8M next year.

I am also going to assume that at the beginning of next year the Knicks, if they stay together as a whole, are mostly the same team roster wise. I will make a slight assumption that the team as a whole are better than this year: They will have had a year together; Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields still have growing room (IMHO Moz and Fields will get significantly better and also recall that this past offseason was really the first the both Chandler and Gallo could practice for an entire off-season). Before next season, 2011 pick is up, and Donnie has slight maneuverability with AR to upgrade his backup PG spot, which is the Knicks' weakest position. I think those are all reasonable things.

Without the need to figure out his rotations and starting lineup, MDA and team have an advantage over year 2010/2011 in terms of how to attach season. Moz settles down from last year and is OK enough to start full time. I think this alleviates Turiaf from starting and playing minutes towards which he will get hurt; ie, he plays the role of back as he should.

The Knicks as a team are better *and* more importantly individuals like Gallo, Chandler, Moz, Fields are also better than before because of the extra year of experience. This would increase their values some. Not sure how much. I don't think this is too much of a stretch.

CP3 or Deron come up. I believe that if Orlando tanks in playoffs Dwight will grumble enough and may scare his ownership ****less.

Those are 3 guys you can target while growing your team internally.

If Utah wants value for a departing Deron: Chandler(or Gallo)/Felton/TD/2011 pick, 2013 pick. Utah will need a starting PG to replace Deron and don't think Hayward is ready to be a starter yet. Utah can be competitive for another year or 2 with Jefferson, Millsap, Chandler/Gallo, Felton, Raja, Okur, Gordan, CJMiles and they can also rebuild after that.

Same deal with CP3. Or if NO wants cap relief: CP3/OK4: Chandler/Felton/Moz/Turiaf/2013 pick.

For Dwight, I may give up a lot cause I think a front line of Dwight, Amare, Felton can compete against anyone: Moz/Turiaf/Gallo/Chandler/picks.

Dwight has indicated either NY or LA. I think LA has a better shot at him IF they want to break up a team that just won 3 championships, I think they win this year.

Blue, Amare and Melo are nowhere in the same league as LeBron/Wade defensively, and yet Miami's duo can match offense with Amare/Melo all day. And Miami has Bosh to boot.

I am beginning to think that Durant/Westbrook can match the output of Amare/Melo and be better defends and their team has many more legit starters and bench then the Knicks would after Denver deal.

My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without.

The team with Melo/Amare definitely is better than today's team. But how does it get past the second round?

Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

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Knickoftime
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2/21/2011  11:15 AM
Ignoring the established factual reality that the NBA continues year-by-year to adjust the rules to favor scorers and scoring and players CAN'T by rule play defense like they did 5, 10 15 years ago (much less 20, 30, 40), again, who's got a gameplan for the Knicks to transform themselves into a defensive team anchored by 2 two-way superstars.

Paladin55?

Knickoftime
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2/21/2011  11:19 AM
martin wrote:
Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

Amare $19.9
Gallo $12.6 (his cap hold)
Chandler $9
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $6.0 (he'll get his 3rd year max in 2012)
2011 First Round $1.5
-------------------------
$56.1

And you're also left with the decision of giving Felton a significant raise, or letting him walk. Either way, you're over the cap.

So YOU tell me, where is the upgrade on defense, starting PG, bench depth, back-up PG coming from?

Be specific please.

How is that framework of a team competing against LAL, MIA, CHI?

martin
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2/21/2011  11:27 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:
Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

Amare $19.9
Gallo $12.6 (his cap hold)
Chandler $9
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $6.0 (he'll get his 3rd year max in 2012)
2011 First Round $1.5
-------------------------
$56.1

And you're also left with the decision of giving Felton a significant raise, or letting him walk. Either way, you're over the cap.

So YOU tell me, where is the upgrade on defense, starting PG, bench depth, back-up PG coming from?

Be specific please.

How is that framework of a team competing against LAL, MIA, CHI?

I outlined it in the very post you just quoted the above but you chopped it out.

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BlueSeats
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2/21/2011  11:40 AM
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
martin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?

I think he meant both were bad/average defenders.

How many elite teams are there where both their top guys were deficient at defense.


I will say this. I have seen both Amare and Melo play good defense. It is not their specialty, but it's there. However, they both play HOF caliber offense (IOW barring catastrophic injury if either wins a chip they're in.)

In another thread I compared Melo's stats to other HOF offensive machines. I suspect history would show that HOF players give you a better chance to win than mediocre two-way role players.

The defensive acuity of this team is equally dependent on the coach at this stage of the game, IOW the kind of players they are surrounded with and the focus put on it.

My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without. There are always opportunity costs, but there is no current calculus that can project us from a .500 team to a championship overnight. You seem to be inferring you have one up your sleeve. Lets see it.

I think this post of mine def got lost in all of the threads, so I am reposting.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38137&page=3#830127

Here is a better plan than the one for Melo:

Let's make assumption that Chandler is $8M next year.

I am also going to assume that at the beginning of next year the Knicks, if they stay together as a whole, are mostly the same team roster wise. I will make a slight assumption that the team as a whole are better than this year: They will have had a year together; Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields still have growing room (IMHO Moz and Fields will get significantly better and also recall that this past offseason was really the first the both Chandler and Gallo could practice for an entire off-season). Before next season, 2011 pick is up, and Donnie has slight maneuverability with AR to upgrade his backup PG spot, which is the Knicks' weakest position. I think those are all reasonable things.

Without the need to figure out his rotations and starting lineup, MDA and team have an advantage over year 2010/2011 in terms of how to attach season. Moz settles down from last year and is OK enough to start full time. I think this alleviates Turiaf from starting and playing minutes towards which he will get hurt; ie, he plays the role of back as he should.

The Knicks as a team are better *and* more importantly individuals like Gallo, Chandler, Moz, Fields are also better than before because of the extra year of experience. This would increase their values some. Not sure how much. I don't think this is too much of a stretch.

CP3 or Deron come up. I believe that if Orlando tanks in playoffs Dwight will grumble enough and may scare his ownership ****less.

Those are 3 guys you can target while growing your team internally.

If Utah wants value for a departing Deron: Chandler(or Gallo)/Felton/TD/2011 pick, 2013 pick. Utah will need a starting PG to replace Deron and don't think Hayward is ready to be a starter yet. Utah can be competitive for another year or 2 with Jefferson, Millsap, Chandler/Gallo, Felton, Raja, Okur, Gordan, CJMiles and they can also rebuild after that.

Same deal with CP3. Or if NO wants cap relief: CP3/OK4: Chandler/Felton/Moz/Turiaf/2013 pick.

For Dwight, I may give up a lot cause I think a front line of Dwight, Amare, Felton can compete against anyone: Moz/Turiaf/Gallo/Chandler/picks.

Dwight has indicated either NY or LA. I think LA has a better shot at him IF they want to break up a team that just won 3 championships, I think they win this year.

Blue, Amare and Melo are nowhere in the same league as LeBron/Wade defensively, and yet Miami's duo can match offense with Amare/Melo all day. And Miami has Bosh to boot.

I am beginning to think that Durant/Westbrook can match the output of Amare/Melo and be better defends and their team has many more legit starters and bench then the Knicks would after Denver deal.

My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without.

The team with Melo/Amare definitely is better than today's team. But how does it get past the second round?

Amare  		 $19.9 
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

What am I missing, I don't think swapping Deron, CP3 or Howard projects us to a championship either, and who's to say we wont get played just as bad in those negotiations?

There are no guarantees. Winning a Chip requires more than just a strategy, it also requires great luck. You have to do things that put you in a position to contend for one. Being a perennial second round of playoffs is getting there. Then you can be in a position where a DeBusschere can put you over the top. How do you get that player? Who knows: get lucky in the draft, the MLE, a good trade...you gotta get lucky.

But languishing at .500 and pining for longer shots than the one at hand doesn't position you any better.


It's a bit like chess. While in the end the difference of one pawn can decide the game at the end, you don't have to know exactly which pawn it will be when in the mid-game you're deciding if you should sacrifice a knight and bishop to capture a queen.

Again, I have no problem with you not liking Melo or not liking whatever package you are assuming we are giving up, but this idea that you don't do anything unless this one move makes you a champ is silly, and you can post your above post ad infinitum, but it ain't in it either, nor do you know you could get it done.

tkf
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2/21/2011  11:45 AM
Knickoftime wrote:Your smugness ignored for the moment, you (and others) are still missing and conspiciously ignore the obvious.

What's the alternative?

Knicks have been terrible for a decade.

85% of the NBA haven't been title contenders in any point in the league's history - it's been dominated by Boston, LA, Chicago, in recent years San Antonio, with the occasional Miami and Detroit getting a flash moment in the sun.

Knicks have a max player and 3 young players all due for significant raises in the next 17 months, which will erase their cap space for years to come.

So who is this (or these) two-way star(s) coming the Knicks way anytime soon?

Name them, how the Knicks get them, and what makes you absolutely certain the next CBA won't make that impossible?

Any knucklehead can shoot holes in the actual present opportunity. Few opportunities are flawless.

But unless you can carve a path to a viable superior alternative, you're just engaging in the common - criticizing the possible in comparison to the more attractive alternative of your fantasy.

good post, but the problem I have with the bolded part is that you almost make it seem as if the 3 young players won't be worth the raises. I mean I could see your point if gallo, and chandler were average players with no upside...do we know how good both guys can be or will be next year? that is the X factor.. one I am willing to wait and see, considering that we are not passing up a lebron or wade.. this is melo.. I would take that chance.. sorry, I just don't think melo is worth this much....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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2/21/2011  11:53 AM
martin wrote:I outlined it in the very post you just quoted the above but you chopped it out.

Let's address the issues with your suggestions.

1.) The new CBA will likely make it more difficult for drafted, established stars to leave, or least the incentive will be altered favorably to the original team. There is even the possibility of a franchise tag.

A new CBA, and changes, are a certainty. No one knows what they will be exactly, but we do know what the owners want.

Any way you slice it, you're taking a risk forgoing an actual opportunity for a theoretical one.

2.) One of the 3 names you've mentioned has made it publicly known playing WITH the guy you're passing up is a priority. Just strikes me as oddly turning a blind eye to this fact.

3.) (And this is the more relevant one), you've built yourself a house of cards of circumstance that ALL must go your way in order for any of them to be a reality.

They are:

a.) that Chandler and Gallinari stay healthy (not a non-factor for either of them) and that both of them AND Mozgoz indeed continue to progress and establish greater consistency (something that continues to allude the first two this season) AND that the Felton of the first month and 1/2 is the truer version of the Felton of the last 2 months.

b.) that despite the fact the Knicks, if retaining Chandler this off-season, would NOT have max cap space available in 2012, that Utah, or New Orleans or Magic would be willing to deal with the Knicks; and that

c.) No other team can or will make superior offers.

So in summary, you're alternative to Melo is predicated on:

- The CBA not restricting player movement.

- One of these players wanting to come to the Knicks at all.

- One of their teams willing to trade with the Knicks despite the Knicks not having the leverage of the necessary cap room in the off season.

- The Knicks current assets progressing sufficiently to be attractive to those teams.

- No other team in the mix with superior offers.

ANY one of these factors doesn't come to pass, and your entire scenario crumbles under its own weight.

And for this speculative scenario, you want to bypass the opportunity to improve now, before the new CBA?

I'll reiterate my original point.

"You're just engaging in the common - criticizing the possible in comparison to the more attractive alternative of your fantasy."

Amare and Melo- It's not only in the stars...

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