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Billups vs Felton
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technomaster
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2/19/2011  8:44 PM
While I've become quite a Felton fan (and I believe Felton still has room to get better!), in the short term Billups could be a very nice fit for the Knicks, particularly if his role is to be a 3rd or 4th (or 5th) scorer on the team. I'd argue that a straight swap of the 2 players might even make the Knicks a better team.

Billups pros:
* Proven winner, now a poised veteran.
* Doesn't need to dominate the ball to control the tempo
* Doesn't need to push the ball at hyper speed to be effective
* Known as a clutch shooter
* At a beefy 6'3" great size for a PG
* Strong ability to take the ball in an isolation and post up (ie get a good shot)

Billups cons:
* Really only one: Age. Will be 35 at the start of the 2011-2012 season. He was a late bloomer, though, and his mature style of play may allow him to be effective into his mid-late 30's.

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BlueSeats
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2/19/2011  8:56 PM
technomaster wrote:
Billups cons:
* Really only one: Age. Will be 35 at the start of the 2011-2012 season. He was a late bloomer, though, and his mature style of play may allow him to be effective into his mid-late 30's.

Agreed. His style of play was never really ball-to-the-walls either, meaning it doesn't rely on great athleticism, explosiveness or speed. I think he can be a cagey vet longer than most.

scoshin
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2/19/2011  9:15 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
technomaster wrote:
Billups cons:
* Really only one: Age. Will be 35 at the start of the 2011-2012 season. He was a late bloomer, though, and his mature style of play may allow him to be effective into his mid-late 30's.

Agreed. His style of play was never really ball-to-the-walls either, meaning it doesn't rely on great athleticism, explosiveness or speed. I think he can be a cagey vet longer than most.

I think he has 2 more years in him, which is all we need him for.

My only problem with the swap is that if we do strike out on Paul/Deron, or don't have the cap space to acquire them (more likely), we're in the hunt for a starting PG again. And Melo/Amar'e NEED a PG more than say LeBron/Wade or even Kobe/Gasol.

As much flak as Felton got lately, he could've been a legit long-term solution for us. I also like the fact that we'd have two NCAA championship winners in Felton/Melo.

TheSage
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2/19/2011  9:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/19/2011  9:24 PM
Billups has been a nice player and a winner but as a point guard has never matched Felton's assist numbers this year. came close once.
BlueSeats
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2/19/2011  9:25 PM
scoshin wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
technomaster wrote:
Billups cons:
* Really only one: Age. Will be 35 at the start of the 2011-2012 season. He was a late bloomer, though, and his mature style of play may allow him to be effective into his mid-late 30's.

Agreed. His style of play was never really ball-to-the-walls either, meaning it doesn't rely on great athleticism, explosiveness or speed. I think he can be a cagey vet longer than most.

I think he has 2 more years in him, which is all we need him for.

My only problem with the swap is that if we do strike out on Paul/Deron, or don't have the cap space to acquire them (more likely), we're in the hunt for a starting PG again. And Melo/Amar'e NEED a PG more than say LeBron/Wade or even Kobe/Gasol.

As much flak as Felton got lately, he could've been a legit long-term solution for us. I also like the fact that we'd have two NCAA championship winners in Felton/Melo.

Agreed. He's only a short term "solution" (not sure there was a problem with Felton) But Billups is a very economical player from an energy-expenditure perspective. There's little wasted movement. I don't know if he'll have the longevity of a Stockton, Nash or Kidd, but while his minutes will drop his performance wont fall off the cliff like it did with guys like Francis and Marbury.

nixluva
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2/19/2011  9:30 PM
He's still producing at the same rate he always has. His minutes are down just a bit, but he's still productive. I think he knows how to conserve energy better than most PG's. He can keep doing this for a few more years IMO. That should give us enough time to find a longterm replacement.
Paladin55
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2/19/2011  10:12 PM
If you are looking at "systems," how is he someone MDA would want running his team as a PG?
I am starting to see the end of MDA's tenure as the Knicks' head coach.

If this trade goes down, I'm not sure we will have the kind of team he envisioned, and I'm not sure he will be wanted by Walsh's replacement.

Just some thoughts...

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Knickoftime
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2/19/2011  11:11 PM
scoshin wrote:I think he has 2 more years in him, which is all we need him for.

Less than a year and 1/2 really.

A year if he's moved as an expiring next deadline.

BigDaddyG
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2/19/2011  11:39 PM
technomaster wrote:
* Doesn't need to push the ball at hyper speed to be effective

I'm not sure Chauncey can play at hyper speed anymore. The Nuggets have the luxury of giving Ty Lawson major minutes, so Chauncey doesn't have to worry about getting worn out. If this trade goes through, Billups will have to play major minutes and pretty quick pace for us. I'm not sure he can do it.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Olbrannon
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2/19/2011  11:45 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
technomaster wrote:
* Doesn't need to push the ball at hyper speed to be effective

I'm not sure Chauncey can play at hyper speed anymore. The Nuggets have the luxury of giving Ty Lawson major minutes, so Chauncey doesn't have to worry about getting worn out. If this trade goes through, Billups will have to play major minutes and pretty quick pace for us. I'm not sure he can do it.

Umhmm Chauncey has been an excellent teacher for Lawson and will be as well for Douglas. In fact I recall when TD first played against him Chauncey took a liking to Toney. Other than Sam Cassell I can't think of anyone I'd rather have teaching him or Nash.

I know Melo has already played under d'A Didn't Chauncey this summer as well?

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
BigDaddyG
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2/20/2011  12:59 AM
Olbrannon wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
technomaster wrote:
* Doesn't need to push the ball at hyper speed to be effective

I'm not sure Chauncey can play at hyper speed anymore. The Nuggets have the luxury of giving Ty Lawson major minutes, so Chauncey doesn't have to worry about getting worn out. If this trade goes through, Billups will have to play major minutes and pretty quick pace for us. I'm not sure he can do it.

Umhmm Chauncey has been an excellent teacher for Lawson and will be as well for Douglas. In fact I recall when TD first played against him Chauncey took a liking to Toney. Other than Sam Cassell I can't think of anyone I'd rather have teaching him or Nash.

I know Melo has already played under d'A Didn't Chauncey this summer as well?


Yeah, Chauncey played with Team USA, but he played limited minutes. Will we have that luxury here? I know Chauncey can still play, I just worry about how much he can give us if he's traded here.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
FistOfOakley
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2/20/2011  2:44 AM
given his reluctance to move away from denver he'd probably be 'coerced' into a trade to ny meaning his heart wouldn't be into it..

he'd be a good fit if we get a career average performance from him... someone who can knock down open 3's and hit an open man... of which he'll get plenty of.... and someone who doesn't need to dribble half the shot clock to make a decision...

tj23
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2/20/2011  8:53 AM
From Nash to Duhon to McGrady to Felton Mike D always has one primary ballhandler who operates the pick and roll. Billups is a very solid PG but I dont see him handling that role. And Melo is a scorer but not the greatest decision maker to run your team. I do wonder how it will play out if we swap Ray for Chauncey. I wont say it will be a bad thing at all, but I think Mike will have to adjust his gameplan a bit. If Melo and Amare are the 2 feature players, is Melo going to run the pnr? That's not something he normally does.
jazz74
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2/20/2011  10:34 AM
well, like someone said the biggest hurdle is age which could be a mute point if we are clearing up space in 2012. if we get melo and mare stays healthy, then our team will become attractive enough to get one of the two major pgs that year.here is my observation of both:

ray felton: strong and deceptively guick gaurd with beautiful handle. underrated leadership skills who can drive the lane on almost everybody. getting better with the pick and roll scheme. great passer and court vision. consistently better mid to long range shooter but better with the mid range pop. very good perimeter defender and has a nose for the ball. a hustling pg. weakness is that he has a hard time guarding quicker pgs. he can shoot too much at certain points of the game, particularly when the team is behind and cant get the offense going. streaky shooter. can turn the ball over at inopportune times.

chauncey billups: talking about a leader, not many pgs will rank higher than him. superior basketball iq who plays the game like chess rather than checkers which is why he is playing at a decent level at his age. great passer and a "jack of all trades" pg who doesnt do anything excellent but can do everything very good. good court vision and awareness. strong pg who can still drive and finish with the best of them because of it. not as fast or quick as before but still can engineer a fast break effectively. in your face defender who relies on smarts to frustrate the opposition into making bad decisions. named "mr. big shot" because he can and will make the shot needed in the 4th. weakness is age of course and lack of quickness. we also have to be aware of his health. he has been relatively healthy for the most part but if he goes down it will be hard on any team to replace that.

so with both scenerios, you give or take. personally, if we are thinking about making noise in the playoffs, teams will be more scared of billups because he causes so many problems on both ends.

Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  11:00 AM
FistOfOakley wrote:given his reluctance to move away from denver he'd probably be 'coerced' into a trade to ny meaning his heart wouldn't be into it..

he'd be a good fit if we get a career average performance from him... someone who can knock down open 3's and hit an open man... of which he'll get plenty of.... and someone who doesn't need to dribble half the shot clock to make a decision...

Billups has not issue with leaving Denver. He wants his $14m 2011 option picked up. That's what his little proclamation a couple of months ago was really about.

RonRon
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2/20/2011  11:19 AM
tj23 wrote:From Nash to Duhon to McGrady to Felton Mike D always has one primary ballhandler who operates the pick and roll. Billups is a very solid PG but I dont see him handling that role. And Melo is a scorer but not the greatest decision maker to run your team. I do wonder how it will play out if we swap Ray for Chauncey. I wont say it will be a bad thing at all, but I think Mike will have to adjust his gameplan a bit. If Melo and Amare are the 2 feature players, is Melo going to run the pnr? That's not something he normally does.

I think you hit it on the spot. Chauncey doesnt seem to be that type of PG. A Lamor Odom, Tmac, Joe Johson, type player would be ideal. That way, Billups will way the 2nd ball handler and doing what he is best is best at, SHOOTING.

PresIke
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2/20/2011  11:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/20/2011  11:23 AM
the thread i just posted:

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38130

illustrates the problems felton is giving our team right now.

he is shooting poorly from outside, and it's affecting amar'e, especially.

here's the quotes i posted from the knickerblooger article:

on average each percentage point increase in Felton’s TS% increases Stoudemire’s TS% by 0.24 points. In other words, the more efficiently Felton scores, the better Amaré is.

If Felton can’t prove to them that he is a dangerous shotmaker, they lay off of him and commit to keeping Stoudemire out of the paint. The statistics bear this out: Stoudemire is taking a lot more shots out of isolation plays. Last year in Phoenix, 61% of his baskets came off assists. This year, only 48% of them do.

in mda's offense the pg has to be able to hit a 20-27 foot jumper consistently.

we've been struggling with his bad shooting of late.

billups is a far superior shooter, and could potentially thrive in this offense.

he is older, but the question then becomes will felton be a better shooter?

if i'm him, if he doesn't get traded, i work my ass off on my outside shooting.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Billups vs Felton

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